Hopefully this is just one of those technical preview things that the team is planning to include (or maybe there's some new way to do this that I missed), in which case, please disregard the following. I did see in the player guide that multiple unit selection is not supported yet, so hopefully the below complaint is just part of that and can be totally ignored. If not:
I have played thousands and thousands of hours of Sins 1, I love it and still play it regularly to this day. I have been waiting for a Sins 2 announcement for years and years....
... but I have been banging my head against the wall for hours in Sins 2 just trying to organize a fleet. I can assign units to a ctrl+number group and bookmark them or have units move in a formation, but it doesn't seem like I can easily add or subtract units from such a group, select all units of a type, etc. The current system of just assigning everything to a ctrl+number group or formation is very clunky and affords almost no control compared to Sins 1 fleet management in which one can easily assign and de-assign individual ships, groups of ships, however you desire it, without having to break and re-form the entire fleet (as one would have to do here to e.g. add another ship to a number group or formation). Also, no rally points? No fleet tactics? No auto-join? Those are all bread-and-butter micromanagement avoidance options.
For example, in Sins 1, if I want to assign ships from factory 1 at my home planet to go to fleet 3 and ships from factory 2 at another planet to go to fleet 7 across the galaxy, I set rally points for each factory, set the ships to auto-join fleet, boom, done, one click. If I want to detach all the Cobalts from fleet 4 and send them to planet 6 to join fleet 9, one click, boom, done. And set fleet 9 to warp all together and engage across a whole gravity well? Two more clicks, done. If I want to do that here, it seems I have to keep a close eye on when the ship is done building, manually send it over to one of the ships in the ctrl+number group or formation, select all the ships in the formation plus the single new ship and create a new formation or ctrl+click group, and manually select it again and remove it from the formation (or re-create the ctrl+number group by including every other ship but that one). I can't set tactics for the formation or group, I can't rally new ships to it, I have no fine control over the constituents of the formation, I can't set ships to auto-join.... all I can do is one-by-one watch ships roll out of the factory (hoping I'm not doing anything else important that might distract me, especially since I seem to get no notifcation of the new ship builds), hope I remember which planets were building which ships when, manually command them to go the same general vicinity as the other ships, and hope I can select the exact set of ships I want to join a formation, then create a new formation... in which case the only control I have over them is that they warp in and out at the same time. This is a massive increase in tedious micromanagement and decrease in tactical control and automation from Sins 1. Before I had an intuitive, incredibly simple system to combine any selection of ships I wanted anywhere in the galaxy to execute any set of tactics I wanted with very minimal manual management required. Now, all I can do is shove a bunch of units together into deathballs, and only if I remember to do all the clicks in time for it to be useful.
Yeah, in case it's not clear enough, this is breaking my brain. I kind of hate it. I think it will just encourage players to doomstack everything in one fleet because otherwise it's so difficult and fiddly to use.
Please just tell me this is a "coming soon" feature that's not part of this particular technical build so I can sleep well at night! I have enough faith in the Ironclad team that I'm sure it is, I'm just finding this so troublesome and game-breaking that I wanted to get in this feedback early in case for some reason it wasn't.
+1
As part of this I would love a command to stop my ships distracting themselves from the correct faction!!!! I was trying to destroy pirates and my ships kept pulling off to chase another factions transitory scout ships!!! grrrr
Fleets in Sins1 had a number of problems so we looked to accomplish similar behavior and solve other problems with some new approaches. Fleets may return but not without collecting plenty of feedback on the current systems. If we added fleets off the bat then the new systems wouldn't get tested.
Most of your examples listed above are, in our opinion, actually easier to execute in Sins2 via improved rally point behavior, the book mark window, pre-production queue orders, improved pip groups, improved class based unit ai, ctrl-unit class selection, and ctrl-groups. And some additional issues you didn't identify (but were an issue in sins1) are solved via the Fleet Supply window (which will likely expand to have more helpful functionality).
One of the upcoming builds will also have a new selection window and auto-book marking of control groups, both of which should help. We are also considering adding autojoin to ctrl-groups.
We'll reexamine if we need to bring back what you are suggesting (or come up with something totally new) after our current plan has been fully tested with the public.
I was wondering if I can join this early access testing phase? And would I be able to test the game with ProtonDB Steam on Linux Manjaro?
Obviously, ProtonDB Steam won't have an updated release versions for support for a game that hasn't been released like Sins 2 but I'm curious if the existing libraries within Proton can potentially already work as a compatibility layer for Sins 2...?
ProtonDB Steam has enormous potential for reaching a larger player base both with Linux users and anyone who has a Valve Steam Deck console.
The game is only available via Epic Game Store for now.
Please don't just consider auto join, I have vastly missed it in this game. Also I am not a fan of using the F key to have my fleets jump at the same time. Much preferred the toggle in fleet management.
Can you elaborate more on this one? By default, all selected ships should jump at the same time. You can override this by using CTRL when you click the move order.
I suspect he\she is saying that actively having to push a button for every jump vs setting a permanent toggle for each fleet is a step backwards.
Registered at the forum just to say how much I agree with the other comments. The whole system is a step backwards.
I can't believe you're thinking of removing fleets from a space game. 🙄
Players get excited creating fleets..
We are encouraging players to try the new features I noted above; this is part of why we are having an early access process. We think they have more to offer than the old fleet system. If not, we'll reconsider.
The most important thing at this stage is to provide specific feedback on why the new features don't work for you, that way we can better evaluate and adjust accordingly.
What does the new system offer that is better? I have not really noticed thus far and have played 3-4 complete games.
As I said above,
1) No obvious way to easily add or subtract units from a ctrl+number group, or to select units of a certain type. The latter is especially frustrating because selecting ships of a type was a major tactical discriminator in Sins 1 (e.g. select flak ships and target fighters); now all you can realisticallu do is band-box your entire doom-stack fleet and dump all the ships on one target. Honestly, this dumbs down the tactics so much that I find it game-breaking. If I knew with certainty that the final game would be set up like that, I would not have bought it in the first place. I'm not saying it will be, but I emphasize how many options this takes away from the player.
2) No rally points takes away tactical options that make the game easier to manage for the player; before, I could set ships coming out of any factory in the galaxy to go anywhere else I wanted in the galaxy. Now I have to manually watch every single ship roll out of a factory, hoping I don't get distracted by something else, remember where I wanted to send the ship, and then when it gets there break the entire ctrl+number group and reform it just to add this one ship... how the heck is this better?
3) No fleet tactics selections takes away tactical options that make combat more interesting for the player
4) No auto-join makes group composition tedious and easy to make mistakes with - again, its subtracting options and forcing the player to spend time doing manual micro-management
If there are ways to do thse things, they need to be documented.
I have been able to set rally points for factories at other planets. However you need to zoom in a little so you can see the gravity well to do it.
You can rally point ships from specific factories or planets to any location or other unit. Just select the planet/factory and right-click on the rally location.
I actually prefer the new systems and dont miss the old fleet system at this point. You zoom into a gravity well and all your ships are right there on the rightside panel, you can hold shift or ctrl while clicking capital ships and that will select all of the same type of ship. You can easily just one click all your light frigates and send them missile cruiser hunting and take your heavy cruisers and send them into the thick of it to absorb damage for your capital ships.
That being said, if there was also a fleet system on top of the new system in Sins 2, I would probably also get use out of that, making smaller fleets for the purpose of harassment/planetary bombardment/colonization/etc.
I would also love if when I'm zoomed into a gravity well fighting a big battle, if I could just press a single key to select all my capitals, or light frigates, or carriers, etc. Maybe they could be pre-grouped. Light frigates, flak frigates, corvettes are all part of a light/short range class. Carriers and Missile/Repair cruisers are part of a long range class. Heavy cruisers are on their own, and capitals are on their own. Now being able to select the ships on the right panel is pretty easy, but if I could just one button certain ships at a time it would make delivering rapid orders to the battlefield much easier and convenient, especially if you have multiple battles going on in different systems.
All of which you could easily do under the old system. It remains a huge, really disappointing, seemingly pointless step backwards solely to "be different".
Fleet management is one thing I absolutely loved about the first game and made me stay interested in it as an RTS game, it definitely set the game apart from other like genre games. As others have previously stated I would highly recommend reintroducing this for Sins 2, thank you.
I am sure we will be able to make fleet groups in the final version like we used to be able to do in Original Sins. When I first got in on the tech preview, I was able to rename, Capital Ships and Planets, but after an update, I cant anymore. So I am sure these things will come back. I like to make specialized fleets as well. Or making support fleets when I need to send in torpedo cruisers or seige frigates, instead of having them in my main battle fleet.
You can currently rename units like capitals, planets, and starbases by left clicking the name with a long press. Just a smidge longer than a regular click and you should see a cursor line show up.
We are encouraging players to try the new features I noted above; this is part of why we are having an early access process. We think they have more to offer than the old fleet system. If not, we'll reconsider. The most important thing at this stage is to provide specific feedback on why the new features don't work for you, that way we can better evaluate and adjust accordingly.
I'll repost this here since the original thread kinda died.
To be honest removing fleet formations is disappointing and I would honestly consider it a regression. I want to have actual fleet tactics. the current system just results in my ships getting split up when one inevitably doesn't jump as quickly as other ships and I fail to notice it. which is annoying. More so It also requires extensive micro management to get ships of one type to do the job they were designed for.The current ship management system is good for nothing more then select all and attack one target at a time. It offers no features that contribute to a more dynamic or entertain battle engagement and from a strictly mechanics perspective it suggests combat is not intended to be a focus or key pillar of this game.Its early so obviously that will change, but hopefully Blair this answers your question on what specifically about the current system is undesirable. To the point of my original post back in the fleet formations thread, we would enjoy seeing fleet combat grow and evolve. Not necessarily as a requirement to play, but having the option to create specialized fleet mechanics would allow for smaller fleets operating all over the map instead of 1 or 2 big fleets engaging in a blob:
I would actually like to expand this.Fleet formations from the older games was functional but it would be great to see this expanded.Ideally we could setup fleets such that ships can be grouped within a fleet. These groups would be customizable to be forward or aft of other groups within the fleet, and behavior can be set such as aggressive defensive, and target priority could be set.As an example, heres what Id like to be able to set up:I would like 1 fleet that moves and jumps together where carrier cruisers and carrier capital ships would hold back to launch fighters. They would have anti fighter frigates and long range missile frigates, and heavy cruisers in a group set to defend those carrier ships. These two groups would stick close and try to avoid direct combat.Within this fleet I would have attack groups made up of an offensive capital ship and supporting ships where ships like the robotics cruisers would have a priority list by ship type for healing. These attack groups would have a target priority list such as structures, cruisers and frigates, or capitals. A fleet would have multiple attack groups that would spread about the gravity well based on how they have been setup.There would be support or logistic groups where command cruisers, support capitals, and repair cruisers would be set to back up other attack groups based on overall health, or proximity of hostiles to the group. I would treat "fleets" as a way to move huge vastly different ships from system to system together, while "Groups" would be how I as a player manager ships in that fleet within the gravity well. At the ship level, ships like flak frigates would ignore group attack orders and instead have a behavior, such as "Protect this group", and thus will follow the group and serve as anti fighter while that group executes its target. Missie frigates might be set to hang back while heavy cruisers may be set to defend them so the missiles will fire from behind a ship wall of heavy cruisers and those cruisers would use their mobility buffs to try and intercept return fire by physically blocking attacks.This would allow me as the player to attack on multiple fronts and have multiple fleets vs a single large fleet which was common in rebellion. I could reasonably expect my fleet to be okay if I zoom to another engagement if I have more control of ship focus, ships grouping and location in the group, and group movement as a fleet.Ideally I'd also be able to hover over the group and fleet icons to see stats on that group like shields of the group, hull of the group, with red and green text indication that suggest this groups shields are or are not sustaining compared to the group its engaging. so if shields or hull are falling faster that the group or structure being attack they will be red but if the enemy is falling faster they would be green.This allows for more macro management and allows us to pull back and manage at a much higher level and larger scale, jumping in to the micro when needed.
I would actually like to expand this.Fleet formations from the older games was functional but it would be great to see this expanded.Ideally we could setup fleets such that ships can be grouped within a fleet. These groups would be customizable to be forward or aft of other groups within the fleet, and behavior can be set such as aggressive defensive, and target priority could be set.As an example, heres what Id like to be able to set up:I would like 1 fleet that moves and jumps together where carrier cruisers and carrier capital ships would hold back to launch fighters. They would have anti fighter frigates and long range missile frigates, and heavy cruisers in a group set to defend those carrier ships. These two groups would stick close and try to avoid direct combat.Within this fleet I would have attack groups made up of an offensive capital ship and supporting ships where ships like the robotics cruisers would have a priority list by ship type for healing. These attack groups would have a target priority list such as structures, cruisers and frigates, or capitals. A fleet would have multiple attack groups that would spread about the gravity well based on how they have been setup.There would be support or logistic groups where command cruisers, support capitals, and repair cruisers would be set to back up other attack groups based on overall health, or proximity of hostiles to the group.
I would treat "fleets" as a way to move huge vastly different ships from system to system together, while "Groups" would be how I as a player manager ships in that fleet within the gravity well. At the ship level, ships like flak frigates would ignore group attack orders and instead have a behavior, such as "Protect this group", and thus will follow the group and serve as anti fighter while that group executes its target. Missie frigates might be set to hang back while heavy cruisers may be set to defend them so the missiles will fire from behind a ship wall of heavy cruisers and those cruisers would use their mobility buffs to try and intercept return fire by physically blocking attacks.This would allow me as the player to attack on multiple fronts and have multiple fleets vs a single large fleet which was common in rebellion. I could reasonably expect my fleet to be okay if I zoom to another engagement if I have more control of ship focus, ships grouping and location in the group, and group movement as a fleet.Ideally I'd also be able to hover over the group and fleet icons to see stats on that group like shields of the group, hull of the group, with red and green text indication that suggest this groups shields are or are not sustaining compared to the group its engaging. so if shields or hull are falling faster that the group or structure being attack they will be red but if the enemy is falling faster they would be green.This allows for more macro management and allows us to pull back and manage at a much higher level and larger scale, jumping in to the micro when needed.
I could not agree more. Very cogently put.
I do not believe changing Windows like basic functions is a good idea.
Who is going to think holding the left mouse button longer was a good idea? for anything?
Maybe right click and then a choice...?
I like what Valkyrie8053 recommends.
One thing I would add is the ability to give 'priority' commands. Such as: Alt + Right-Click to attack a given target until destroyed, then return to prior instructions. These could also stack in their own group of instructions. For example, a fleet is assigned a 5 planet route to avoid some nasty stuff. Along the way, a few pirate raiders are spotted. Alt+Click ship 1, 2, then 3. The fleet destroys ship 1, 2 then 3. Then the fleet returns to its prior route avoiding the nasty stuff, without having to be reassigned.
I created an account here to just reply to this thread.1.) I too am getting frustrated at not being able to easily add and remove ships to control groups and fleets.In SOSA 1 you could set a group of units to a control group by selecting them and then pressing "CTRL + #". (Number being your control group number.)Then you could add additional ships to that control group by separately selecting ships you wanted to add, and then pressing "CTRL + SHIFT + #"I seem to no longer be able to add ships.2.) Ships should not be required to be in the same gravity well to add them to a fleet.You should be able to either (A) click and drag ships into that fleet ( Select the ship, select the fleet, and then use a hotkey or a button to add the ship to a fleet.3.) In the fleet itself, I should be able to see ALL INDIVIDUAL SHIPS at ALL TIMES.Not just the ships that are currently in a specific gravity well.Like many others, I believe the current system is a downgrade...I even had a few friends who were trying the game out for the first time getting frustrated at how badly control groups and fleets were implemented. (They are used to RTS games like Starcraft, Warcraft 3, command and conquer etc. which have a very intuitive system of control groups.)
There are many great features available to you once you register, including:
Sign in or Create Account
