Since the game came out last week, we've been hearing from a lot of new voices on the forum. It is really great that the community is expanding.
While reading reviews and monitoring the forums, I've been noticing a couple of common complaints. I feel like these are based on some misconceptions, so I want to set the record straight. I see this as sort of a "last will and testament" because I don't plan on playing much of the game for a while. I will still monitor the forums and may occasionally comment, but I don't see myself playing GC4 again until it undergoes some refurbishment. (Also, I have some ideas for Thalan strategies in GC3 that I never got to test, so I think I'll give that a try.)
Here are the top misconceptions I see:
Galactic Civilizations 4 is disappointing because it is directed toward players who like "wide" empires and doesn't support "tall" play.
I have a couple of responses to this, but first we have to define what we mean by "wide" and "tall." For those unfamiliar with the terminology, "wide" refers to a sprawling empire with many centers for production (in this case, Core Worlds). Wide empires tend to have a strong military and infrastructure and be focused on expansion. "Tall" empires on the other hand have fewer centers for production (and thus fewer military units), but each center gets developed more. Tall empires tend to be defensive and focused on science or culture.
Anyone who says GC4 doesn't support "tall" play has never played the Baratak. At least they haven't realized the potential of the spore worlds. I went through a couple of failed attempts with the Baratak before I realized I was playing them wrong.
I imagine a lot of players-- especially players new to the franchise--come as I do from a background of playing Civilization. As I recall from my time playing Civ V and VI, "tall" empires usually consisted of three to four cities and anything with five or more cities was usually considered a "wide" empire. Given that there are some similarities between GC4 and Civ6, it's easy to see how some players might feel that GC4 is forcing them into "wide" play. This is a false comparison, however. In GC4, you can play "tall" with three core worlds, or you can play "tall" with eight. It all depends on the map.
A better way to put it might be that "tall" and "wide" are meaningless concepts in this game. "Peaceful" and "aggressive" capture the dynamic of the game much more accurately. It must be admitted, then, that there is some truth in the statement that GC4 doesn't support "tall" play. It was never supposed to. Neither does it support "wide" play. Those concepts are foreign to the game.
The fundamental difference between civilizations in GC4 is not that some of them expand and others do not. All civilizations expand. Some, like the Drengin, do it because they want to. Others do it because a convenient opportunity presents itself. Still others do it because they have to in order to survive. The old Malevolent/Pragmatic/Benevolent dynamic is still at work. The only real difference between the three is how much they care about diplomatic repercussions. The Drengin don't care one bit. The Iconians care a lot. If the Iconians didn't have to care, they would be just as bloodthirsty as the Drengin.
This leads me directly to the next misconception.
The diplomacy system in GC4 doesn't work because the AI never offers a fair deal.
I understand where this is coming from, because that was my initial impression as well. As someone who has already played this game a lot, though, I can tell you how wrong this impression is.
The AI will offer you good trades if they like you enough. It takes time to build that relationship. Be patient.
Probably what is happening is a lot of people get disheartened by the unfair trade offers the AI makes early. They reason that if they can't make good trades, then "tall" play must not be viable. They see they are slipping behind the AI technologically and seek to make up the difference through conquest. They go into full-blown Genghis Khan mode and never see a good trade offer the rest of the game.
Here's my advice. When you meet a new civ, don't do anything. Wait a few turns. Then offer them an Open Borders treaty (assuming you aren't playing the Navigators). Whatever they are willing to pay you, take it. Usually, they'll give you about fifty. In the worst case, they already have a slight bias against you and will only give you about eight gold. Just remember you aren't really sacrificing anything. That's eight free gold.
Then, if you have extra cash lying around, buy a diplomat sometime in the next 10-20 turns and assign it to that civilization. You don't need a diplomat to get good trades, but it definitely helps. Then just wait. Before long you'll be able to get an even trade.
You don't need to have a great relationship with everyone, so prioritize. Just ask yourself: given the geopolitical situation in the galaxy right now, who should I be friends with? Whose success inconveniences me the least?
The ideology system in GC4 doesn't work because there aren't enough ideology points available.
I have felt this way myself in the past, and I will concede that it might be good if Stardock offered us a few more opportunities to earn an ideology point. But the ideology system isn't broken because we don't have enough points available--the system is broken because the traits need to be reworked and rebalanced.
Since the complaints I hear tend to come in the form "I played a whole game and only got 2-3 culture points," I'm guessing that many people have not realized that you get culture points from completing certain quests. These involve building certain improvements (Torian Academy, Baratak Grove, Krynnaic Altar). You also get two citizens for completing these projects, so it's definitely worth it. The Krynnaic Altar gives you Divine Empaths, which are absolutely insane.
The one bad thing is that given how good these improvements are, the Harmony ideology trait that penalizes approval for foreign races feels really bad; but that just goes back to what I was saying about the traits needing a rework.
You get a culture point for researching Universal Translator, which you were going to do anyway. You get another one five years into the game. That's two points in exchange for doing absolutely nothing.
You get another for building one of the improvements unlocked by the Espionage technology. I can't remember what the improvement is called.
My guess is people feel like they don't have enough culture points because they are wasting the ones they do have. My advice is that if you don't have a trait available that you really want, don't spend the culture point. Wait until you have enough ideology awareness to get something you actually want.
You can also play the Arceans. They get a culture point for every leader assigned to a command ship. That's seven extra culture points total in a game. You will have so many culture points, you won't know what to do with them all.
This brings up an important point. If Stardock were to increase the number of culture points available, they would be indirectly nerfing the Arceans. They would also be massively buffing the Baratak. They should think long and hard before they do something like that. I think the amount of culture points we have now is probably just about right anyway.
In any case, it should be apparent that the ideology traits/trees have to be fixed before the amount of culture points can be adjusted. Otherwise, they won't know the value of what it is they are adjusting.
Steam users shouldn't buy GC4 because Stardock is in league with the devil, aka the Epic Games store.
Okay, I'm really just stepping into controversy on this one.
It is well documented at this point that the Epic Games store hasn't done anything illegal or nefarious. It is obvious that Steam (or Valve or whatever) benefits from the controversy persisting. There's nothing American or patriotic about boycotting Epic (which I say as a patriotic American).
Now of course I'm arguing with half the internet, which is about the stupidest thing that one can do. Conspiracy theorists will be conspiracy theorists, and I'm not going to change that.
I really just bring this up because were it not for the Epic Games store, I would never have encountered the wonderful world of Galactic Civilizations. I had never even heard of it before Retribution was offered for free on the Epic Games store some months ago. It quickly became my all-time favorite game. After I learned GC4 was in the works, I switched over. Now I'm going back to GC3 because I have some unfinished business there, just as Stardock apparently has some unfinished business with GC4.
As a way of saying thank you to Epic for introducing me to GalCiv, I feel obligated to do my part to stop the spread of misinformation. So I've brought it up here.
Those with a different opinion can denounce me, of course, and if they do so while checking their facts and sources, I will gladly listen.
This post was much longer than I intended for it to be, and I will be surprised if many people made it to the end!
What a great post.
On the Tall vs Wide, cannot understand peoples complaining. The colonies and sector system allow to play both Tall and Wide and is down to choice. Especially with the colonies Tall is easy. Can have 2-3 core planets per sector, with Economic station, and everything else been fed by colonies even from neighbouring sectors.
As for the Epic store, is Epic's fault didn't drag to courts everyone spreading libelous posts because they have caused great financial and reputational damage to the company. If anyone uses that argument should have facts to back it at court.
Also the good with Epic store, is like with GOG, we can run our games without the extra client by running the executable directly (GalCiv4 has a bug there which I reported). And big thank you to Stardock for placing the mechanism to manage the mods via the game.
A good post, a agree with some points and disagree with others.
While your definition of wide and tall are mostly correct, it doesn't speak to the heart of tall play. For that, I will go back in time to Civilization IV (maybe 3 I just didn't play that one).
Civ IV plays like the civ games before it...wider is better. More cities = more good, and so all civs are benefited from playing Wide. HOWEVER, the culture victory for the first time allowed a small civ to be competitive with a larger one. Though wider was still better in terms of overall yields, technically a small civ could generate just as much culture as a wide one in its 3 key cities and win the game. And so, at least for the civ series, the concept of TALL was born as a viable gameplay strategy.
Civ V took that one step further, by permanently penalizing certain yields with expansion, Civ V made Tall vs Wide a fundamental difference. Going Tall meant being better in X yields, Wide better in Y yields. Both had victory conditions they were generally better at. Though I personally think Civ 5 went too far, the trend was clear.
In GC, there is both no incentive to stay Tall, nor any real victory conditions that support it. Though there are galactic achievements that are useful to both Tall and Wide, ultimately my prestige points are still assisted by Wide play.
In summary, in other 4x games there are gameplay and victory conditions that support Tall styles of play, GC there is none. That is the complaint.
Here is a screenshot to highlight the point:
In this example, I am cordial with my opponent (more green than red even). I am offering them a rare resource for a dirt common one. And yet.. we aren't even close to a deal they will accept. That is ludicrous.
If the intention that civs must have excellent relations with you to make "real deals", then the simple solution is to turn off all of the diplomatic options until that criteria is met. Just make everything red, letting me make only the most minimal of deals. Otherwise, diplomacy is just an exercise in frustration, having the AI come to me time and time again with ludicrous deals, while I try to negotiate and get some semblance of a deal I can stomach. That's not real diplomacy.
Further, the current persuade and intimidate options are very weak, they barely move the needle on most deals.
I think your partially right here. There are more ideology points than it looks at first glance if you know where to find them (which again doesn't help new players that just want some culture, but I digress). However, even with that, I still think there are too few culture points.
On culture points I have had at least 5 in the 70 turns of my latest game. Some games I might have 1 in that time and I have started many games with a leader that gave me one on turn one. Also having played the game for 6 months Ideology is not a game breaker you can do quite well without getting more than a few of that features perks.
Yeah. Had a game like that but was hunting 1 bug to replicate so didn't played well. By turn 60ish had 6 Culture points, 4 from missions, 1 from leader, 1 naturally. Other games I will be lucky if I get 2 in 60 turns.
This I think highlights the greater issue with culture. Its not the lack of points per say, its the randomness of it. Culture feels like a core yield that should be something you work for and acquire, not a gift completely subject to the whims of the dice.
Actually that happened on a game which had placed 2 leaders in Warforged and one in Natural League. Need to read the Internal Factions journal when I manage to stop playing the game
GalCiv IV Dev Journal #15 - Internal Factions (littletinyfrogs.com)
Thanks for the replies, everyone.
I want to clarify my position regarding my first point, since I think it may have been a bit confusing.
If we apply a strict definition of "Tall" based on what other strategy games have done, then it would have to be admitted that there is--in this strict sense--no Tall play in GC4. But why does this even matter? No one ever really bothers to point this out. You could say that not having a way to play Tall deprives the game of strategic variety, but I don't think that is true. The strategic variety is there, it simply doesn't exist along a Tall-Wide axis. Rather, it's a Peaceful-Aggressive axis. Peaceful civs want to expand, but not at the expense of causing unrepairable diplomatic damage. So peaceful civs tend to stay small--at least initially.
The diplomatic system is complicated, somewhat opaque, and not at all the same as the diplomatic system in the Civ series. (I remember that threw me off when I was starting to play GC3).
If you haven't figured out the diplomacy system, then of course, you're not going to see the game as a choice between Peaceful and Aggressive. You'll see a choice between Aggressive and Hyper Aggressive and be like: "Dude, where the @&*$# are my Tall play options?"
So that's my point. I think people who make these criticisms just haven't figured the game out yet.
Stalker0, thank you for the feedback. I think I've already responded to your first point by restating my position more clearly.
You offered a diplomacy screenshot and I want to review it because I don't think it proves what you are trying to prove.
Based on your current research, credits, resources, and prestige victory progress I'd say this screenshot was taken somewhere early-mid game. (I use the turn number setting instead of the date setting, so I have no idea how far along 2312 is.) Really, what turn of the game we're on doesn't matter. It just underscores my point that people have unrealistic expectations of diplomatic trades early on.
"Cordial" is perhaps a bit misleading. You'll notice on the red/green bar overhead that there is a black diamond and a green arrow. What "cordial" refers to is the green arrow, NOT to the placement of the diamond. Your actual diplomatic relations (i.e., how willing they are to trade with you) depends on the position of the diamond.
Take what I've just said with a grain of salt because I'm not 100% sure it works this way; these are just my observations based on my experience.
The arrow is what direction your relationship is headed. You are cordial, meaning that your relations with the Xeloxi are slowly headed in a positive direction. Your actual relationship (the diamond) is about the same as it was when you first met. The Xeloxi simply don't trust you well enough yet to trade their precious resources.
Another thing: you'll have to tell me if I'm right but it looks like it might be their last durantium. (I can't remember if the resource disappears from the right if any amount is offered, or only if the last unit is offered.) Civs are very reluctant to trade away their last copy of a resource.
Even if it is not their last durantium, it is still early-mid game durantium. Durantium has more value in the early-mid game and I think the AI knows this. Although Arnor Spice is relatively expensive at the bazaar, it is relatively useless in the early-mid game as there are few priority buildings that use it and the AI won't yet be able to trade it into the bazaar for money (assuming the AI can do that, which I don't know for a fact).
The AI is very stingy with it's strategic resources, so I generally try to acquire all my mid-game strategic resources by myself and only trade for these with the AI if I absolutely have to. Midgame I trade credits, diplomatic capital, treaties, and tech for almost exclusively tech, but also for credits if the offer is good. I will throw in excess strategic resources if it's something the AI wants. That usually helps acquire some credits towards my next leader.
I do think your opinion has value, since it seems to be the opinion of many people especially the newer players. In all probability what Stardock needs to do is make the system more understandable for everyone. But love it or hate it, Stardock seems to feel we will enjoy the game more when we have to figure it out for ourselves. And I think they just might be right.
Quoted inline:
First, thank you for the initial post and everyone who is responding. There's some great feedback in this discussion.
Second, I am passing this on to the dev team. The feedback can help us continue to balance the game.
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