Since I am bored, have nothing to do, and without a life, I have taken upon myself to redesigning FE's tech tree from scratch since I, as gamer for life, am much more capable than professional game designers (sarcasm). Of course I am a long way from finishing, as I am discovering that I need to add new game features / traits / spells, to keep ideas fresh and not rehashing similar things over and over.
Anyways, I am writing this post to share two solutions I came up with to problems with the current FE tech tree: bland names and tech tree pacing.
Technology Tree Pacing
The greatest problem with tech tree design for this game is that each technology costs a fixed amount of research points, and that the player acquires these research points at an increasing rate as his more population grows and as he builds city improvements. The idea works in Civilization because eventually all civilizations will learn each technology so it makes sense that it is easier to research earlier technologies it missed by them being quick to research. The problem this creates for Elemental is that it makes more sense for players to research both magic and warfare rather than choosing only one path. For example, after researching a couple of techs in Warfare, the next tech would take 30+ turns, whereas the magic techs would start at 5 turns (I'm making up these numbers).My answer to this is to treat research as follows:First ten technologies that you research take 10 turns each. Thereafter, each subsequent technology will take 1 additional turn to research to a maximum of 25turns.e.g. # turns = 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 25, 25, ...The exact numbers really depend on the number of technologies int the game.This way, early technologies are relatively quick to research, giving the player time to build the city improvements/units they unlock.The other pro of this approach is that for the early and mid game, small factions won't be significantly out-teched by large factions.
So what happens to research points and tech buildings? Are they gone? Not entirely.For each research point you gain, it reduces your research time by 1 turn. By default, the maximum number of research points you can gain is 5. Acquiring so many research points is very difficult to accomplish.Ways to acquire research points:-1 research point (RP) per 500 population empire-wide, to a maximum of 2RP that can be contributed in this way.-1RP for both factions involved in a Research treaty.-1RP from a hireable champion (1 unique to kingdoms, 1 unique to empires)-1RP from city improvement-1RP from word achievement-1RP from another World Achievement (when no faction is at war with each other among the Kingdoms/Empires, all factions among them gain 1RP and the builder gains +5 guildar per faction-1RP from a quest.-1RP as a faction ability-other ways that are not accessible by everyone
I'm thinking many of you will dislike the notion because without a series of tech buildings to construct, there is no way to specialize a city as a technological capital, but I really believe it is the best way to make viable a strategy focused on only Warfare, or only Magic.
Bland NamesYes, they are bland and very specific. This leads to being very limited as to what you can include in the technology that would make sense. The most telling examples are the Warfare technologies. Obvious examples are:
Names like that are appropriate for a game like civilization, where names have historical significance, but in FE, I'd do it differently.
I suggest naming technologies based on the steps a society would take from founding a small village, to conquering rival cities. From my work on designing a tech tree, I have a few early technologies to give you an idea what I mean.
Warfare
Safe Haven: (things that help protect your settlement in the first turns of the game)Hedge Wall (I am assuming here that walls provide a physical barrier in city tactical battles)Bow (appropriate weapon to fire from behind a wall)
Reclaiming the Land (what you need to start clearing out nearby monsters)SpearWood ShieldMonster Hunter (a trait that makes killing monsters easier)
Bad Neighbors: (To help defend against stronger monsters or a nearby warmongering faction)(requires Safe Haven)Archer's Turret (Assuming we can fortify settlements with turrets)
Magic
Minions: (Because if a Sovereign does not research into Warfare, he will have no weapons/armor to equip his villagers with)Summon Wolf (1, Basic) The (Basic) implies the spell does not belong to any particular school of magic, 1 is for spell levelSummon Bear (1, Basic)
The Sovereign Protects: (What you need to protect a settlement for the first turns in the game.)Mud Wall (1, Basic)(insert level 1 ranged offensive spells here)
Sovereign's Blessing (To magically help your city grow)(insert level 1 city enchantments here)
Civilization
A Beacon of Hope: (Draws survivors from around to join the settlement)Inn+1 Faction prestige
A Better Life (Buildings that increase the livelihood of new settlers from shit to OK)Pottery ShopClay Pits
Industry (A bland name for production)Lumber mill
I think changing the research mechanics is probably too big of a change at this stage of development.
Coming up with cool ideas that perhaps better simulate the ideas spread across culture is great, but in the end does it greatly improve the experience and is it the only way to get those improvements?
It seems like just re-arranging the trees to be more balanced and putting more stand out techs that unlock new strategies would solve most of the problems.
Ya. You're right. I'm expecting nothing to change. I just wanted to fill the heads of the developers with new ideas to work with.
While I would like to see a bit smoother tech progression as well as some more techs, I think the biggest thing I would like to see would be to merge the three tech trees into just one tree. This would also allow one to see the whole tech situation and progression better as well as show more clearly the tech inter-relationships.
I like the idea behind a name change for the technology, to make it more interesting, not to keen on some of the suggestion but I probably will have that anywhere.
I hope they look over tech at some point, just to smoothen the edges
Sincerely~ Kongdej
I wouldn't go so far as to have only one tech tree. The three distinct trees are a really good way to reflect the three avenues of technogical advancement.
I would like to see some more cross connection though. Specialty technologies that require advancement from two or more of the tech trees....Example: Unicorn Riders. Prereqs could be:
Mounted Combat: standard warefare tech to allow horsebackWarg Riders: specialty warefare tech to allow unique beast riders, but not magical beast ridingOne with the Beast: specialty magic tech to allow communication with magic beasts, and hense unique magic beast riders. (note that this tech also does other things....perhaps summoning specific magical beasts....or perhaps calming magical beasts that your champs come across in the wild)
Thus 3 tech later, two of which are offshoots from the main tech tree and one of which exists in a different tree all together, results in a powerful mounted unit that can teleport.
Good times...
No... just no... Cross-tree- requirements is a pain to figure out as a player, and that was the whole point of putting all the techs up on the same technology tree table, instead of having to flip around the 3 choices.
He dont want the focus to change (im sure), he just don't want to have to flip back, flip forth, look at warfare, then flip back to civilization because he might want more food, then flip to warfare, but remember the quest upgrades are under the magic tree, then go flip the magic tree tech tab and figure out he really needs more coins in the end, so he ends up flipping back to civilization and researching "Currency"...
Thats my impression of the current tabs anyways.
That is one of the problems with the current tech trees to much cross connections. There either should be one big tech tree or three seperate tech trees with no cross connections.
I think the main problem with the three separate tech trees is that you still need at least a few basic techs from each tree to be competitive, no matter what strategy you are pursuing. I would like to see each of the trees become viable on it's own, but cater to different play styles. This is partly inspired by Derek's own work; it's been a while since I've played, but IIRC in Fall from Heaven one of the important choices you had to make at the start of the game was whether to use the 'regular' units, or go down the hunting path. Both offered quite different playstyles.
For FE, the current division into civilization/warfare/magic will do fine, but I'm sure other philosophical divisions could be used (for instance Cooperation/Domination/Isolation. or Democratic/Autocratic/Meritocratic, Life/Death/Elementalists, etc). But to stick with the current division, here is how I would like to see the different trees play:
Civilization:This tech tree focuses on building a large economy, that will allow you to build a few towns up to very high levels, or expand out with a large number of less advanced cities. Techtree offers some bonuses for towns, and better buildings and resource improvements. Playstyle can vary from peaceful trader to colonial power to grand unified empire. Military relies mainly on large armies of cheap soldiers with little training and only average equipment. Magic will be mostly utilitarian.
Warfare:The warfare tree focuses on combat obviously. The tree will give some bonuses to fortresses, and will allow you to become a conqueror, mercenary, or the ultimate turtle. Creating a large unified empire will be more difficult than with the civilization tree, but that doesn't mean you can't beat other factions into submission (or completely obliterate them if you desire). Military relies on a smaller number of highly trained troops with the best equipment (maybe supplemented with some cannon-fodder from subjugated factions). Magic focuses mostly on offensive and defensive spells.
Magic:Factions using this tree rely on magic for almost everything. They can produce way more mana than other factions, but also consume if faster. The techtree offers some bonuses for conclaves, and allows for more enchantments on units and cities. A few cities can be build up to mythical heights (both literally and figuratively), or a large number of smaller towns can be maintained for the more expansive players. In combat these factions can rely on powerful wizards, hordes of summoned monsters, or regular troops equipped with magical weapons and aided by enchantments.
I think the game would be a lot more interesting this way, and offer a lot more replayability by trying the different playstyles with each faction.
"Quote, Reply nr 9" (just above)
Yes please, and please make me able to take research from several trees too to make "my own playstyle"...
Wouldn't that kind of defeat the point? Because that is what we have now. The reason I would make three separately viable tech trees is that it would be easier to balance, otherwise you'd still be forced to research techs from each tree to remain competitive.
no that is not how we have it now, how we have it now is it is pretty much required to have all 3 tech trees.
If you want to make it competetive to remain in the same tech tree, but still not just a pointless restriction, you should NOT make research points scale very much along the game...
I got E:WoM around its release time, played it a bit, forgot about it, now I checked up and saw the FE beta.
So, on topic: I don't have the beta, so I dont know the exact tech cost numbers and so on, but if it works the traditional way with fixed RP costs on everything, then yes, it will always be the best choice to develop technologies from all 3 trees simultaneously. The basic idea is, you'd almost always want to finish all of your 10 RP research items before starting any of your 50 RP items (just throwing numbers in there to make the point). Because the overall benefit you get per RP spent tends to diminish the further you advance into the tree(s). Rushing a specific research item would only occur as part of some early game strategy.
Master of Orion 1 (one of the best TBS games to date IMO) had something like 7 separate lines of research. Most of the time you'd want to get the cheapest techs of any type first, but there were a quite a few specific technologies that were early/mid "game breakers" if rushed. Also some techs were randomly chosen to be unavailable -- and somehow it ended up being varied enough to be interesting, but this is, I think, a difficult problem in game design.
I think a mechanic that escalates the cost of all remaining items every time you gain an additional tech will make specialization into 1 or 2 trees a viable strategy.
Such a thing has been done with the cost structure Civ5's social policies, for example.
There might be other ways to go about it, maybe something like the magic book picking at the start of MoM, which essentially determined how much of each sphere of magic you'd be able to research, only way to get a considerable number of high tier spells of a certain type would have at least half your book picks on that type. There are similar ideas, less harsh than making some tech items unavailable at random -- giving scaling bonuses to research speed in one or two trees over the other(s) for instance. You still have to balance it carefully so it's not always the best strategy to take an equal number of books of all 3 types...
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