Beta 4
Beta 4 focuses on cities. But that really means it focuses on the games pace. Production, economy and research come from your cities. When we change them we change the game. First let's talk about a few of the design issues we have been wrestling with:
1. Lack of city specialization. Materials and Food are okay, but in general you want to build the same things in every city, or at least the player's preference outweighs the strategic benefit (so it feels like you just want to do the same thing everywhere).
2. We need more improvements. We want to double the amount a given city may have. We want more choices, we want there to be a bigger difference between a city that focuses on infrastructure and one that produces troops. I want a player focusing on infrastructure to never be able to run out of things to build. And I want to do it without:
a. Making improvements take forever to build.
b. Making cities even larger than they already are (in fact I want to shrink cities).
3. Basing the economy, research and production directly on population is painful/impossible when cities can grow from 1 from 600 population. Whatever bonus we give for those resources on a 10 population city become 60 times as high on a 600 population city. Lesson 1: To control game pace, control your ranges.
4. City enchantments are a tightrope walk. To good and you have to place them on every city, it becomes busywork. Not good enough and you never use them.
I wish fixing it was a simple thing, but we needed a few pieces to make it all work.
Step 1: Starbases?
Outposts can be upgraded to give bonuses to anything in their Zone of Control. They can boost allied units attack, reduce the attack of enemies, modify movement costs, scare away monsters, provide bonuses to the attached city, etc. They are not destroyed when an enemy moves onto them, instead they are flipped to that enemies control and represent your control over the land itself (monsters still destroy outposts, I highly recommend you upgrade them with Wardens to keep the monsters at bay).
Outposts have a limited distance they can be built (or summoned) from each other, so you can't pepper the field with them. But their ZoC's can intersect (with the right upgrades) and their bonuses are cumulative, allowing you to build strong defenses if you desire.
Step 2: Much like a bad Star Trek episode, it's all about the Queue
The production queue is a precious resource. Everything in Beta4 builds faster, but there is a lot more to build. As with Beta3 City Improvements and Units train in the queue, but Wild Improvements and Outpost upgrades go into the queue as well. You can drag items around in your queue if you want to reorder them (and it remembers how much production you had on items you may move back in line).
The biggest change in Beta4 is that even though production is much faster, there are always things you want to build. You can play as Pariden and drop outposts early on, but you will be making a hard choice to start claiming those resources vs making units or improvements in your cities.
Multiple cities are always good. If you can defend them and you have the land to claim it's always a good option just because it gives you more queues. The minimum distance between cities has been reduced in Beta4 to support more cities, closer together.
Step 3: Improvement Upgrades
In Beta4 improvements can upgrade. Your Cleric upgrades to a Shrine which upgrades to a Sacrificial Altar (for Empire players). Since the old improvement is replaced by the new one, we get a few benefits:
1. City size stays relatively contained. We added 40 new improvements and cities are about half the side they are in Beta 3.
2. Cities look more advanced as they upgrade to higher tier buildings. A cleric is a modest building, the Shrine is more pronounced, the artists can go all out on what the Sacrificial Altar looks like. Upgraded buildings don't get lost in the jumble of the same buildings the rest of your cities have, they look more unique and specific to their purpose.
3. You can't get to the higher tier buildings of particular types unless you have built the earlier versions. You can't build the Treasury Vault unless you have gone through the economy boosting improvements on the way. So you have to decide, do you want to build a Study, then School, then College and University? If you do you won't be getting access to the best economy improvements without spending the time to go through the base one and their upgrades. You are rewarded for specializing your cities and your cities build lists become very unique from each other. Build lists also don’t become huge since you only see the highest tier you have access to (you only see the Pier, not the Dock and Harbor it upgrades to).
4. Faction achievements and World Achievements are at the end of upgrade chains. You can't build the Ironworks just because you unlocked the tech for it, and you can't build it in every city. It will only show in a city that has specialized in what it does.
5. Resource improvements upgrade too. The first shard shrine only produces 1 mana per turn. With the correct techs you can upgrade to ones that produce more mana. The same goes for Crystal and Iron mines. If you have enough iron mines to train your units maybe you don’t need to tech up the side of the tree to unlock these improvements. But if you do want to have your iron come in faster, the research options are there for it. This fixes a big issue for us by allowing us to control the pace of mana and resources as the game goes on, we can trickle it in in the beginning, then ramp it up as the player gets access to more expensive units and more costly spells.
Step 4: City Specialization
All cities start as villages. When the city gets to city level 2 you pick a specialization for that city. It can be either be a Fort, a Conclave or a Town.
Fort- Units trained in forts start at a level higher. Forts are the only cities that can build walls as well as having access to improvements that improve defenders and improve trained units.
Conclave- Conclaves generate more research than other city types and have access to special magic and research improvements. They gain additional bonuses from Essence (more about that later).
Town- Towns are the heart of your empire and are the source of your food, growth and money. They also have a larger ZoC than other city types. Towns have access to a series of improvements that improve the food production for all cities in your empire and they are cumulative with each other. So Forts and Conclaves will never be able to reach the highest city levels on their own, they will need towns to support them.
The improvements for each city type are generally in that tech tree (Fort=Military, Town=Civilization, Conclave=Magic). So players that are doing alot of teching in one area will find that they can get more advanced improvements for that sort of city. If you have researched 90% of your magic tree and 0% of your Military tree you will have more high tier conclave improvements available than you have Fort improvements (in fact you will only have 1st tier Fort improvements available).
Choosing what sort of city you have opens up lots of new improvements to that city as well as determining what sorts of improvements the city can unlock at city level 3, 4 and 5. The real magic comes in the intersection of the upgradeable improvement chains (which keep players from building everything everywhere) and the city types (which modify the effect of other improvements). Maybe you want a food boosting town or a fort that creates super soldiers. Or maybe you want studies in every city because you like studies (even if they are more productive in Conclave cities).
Note that studies are available everywhere. Our point isn't to lock these city types down. You can get research and money from non-town cities. You can train units in Conclave cities. The point is to open up new ways each type can specialize.
Step 5: The Economy
I love the idea of all the economics inputs coming from the population. At one point I had a design where there were citizen types, unrest controlled how many were rebels, craftsmen produced special things. It was a beautiful, intricate, stupid design. Lesson number 2: If it's fun to design, it probably isn't fun to play.
Instead of getting money, research and production from the population, they now come from the city level. A village (city level 1) produces 1 research a turn, a level 5 city produces 16 research per turn. Of course these are modified by improvements, enchantments, etc. But that is the extent of our range.
Because of that change tech costs drop to more normalized values. A player with a large population isn't researching at 20x the rate of a player with a normal population. He may be going twice as quickly.
Improvement costs can normalize since we know the ranges for a large production based city. And they are close enough that they stay reasonable for a production focused city without being laughable for a moderate city.
Gold (*cough*, I mean Gildar) values were normalized since we control the ranges, meaning item costs in shops can come down. Sell prices stay the same but now that money means more. A gildar per turn means something to small and large empires alike because to don’t through a growth curve from starving for money to drowning in it.
Step 6: Essence
The final step is the addition of a new tile yield, Essence. Essence appears much like Grain and Materials and is more prevelant around mana shards. Only about half of the city locations have any essence nearby, and only about half of those have spots with 2 Essence. 3 Essence tiles are extremely rare.
There are chains of improvements that require essence before they become available. The Cleric/Shrine/Sacrificial Altar chain I mentioned above is only available in cities with Essence. Conclaves have access to Alchemy Labs and other improvements that give bonuses based on the amount of Essence in that city. The Guardian Idol improvement requires Essence and is 1 per faction (it starts as a monument, upgraded to a Guardian Statue and then to a Guardian Idol), it is a powerful city defender that can cast any spell your sovereign can cast.
There are two improvements that can increase the amount of Essence in a city. One is a level up option in Conclave cities. The other is only available to Pariden.
The biggest advantage of Essence is that a cities Essence determines how many enchantments it can have. City enchantments no longer have a maintenance cost and there are more of them and they are more powerful than before. If you found a city on a place with essence the first thing you should do is get some enchantments on it. Inspiration and Enchanted Hammers are good early ones that exist in Beta 3 (though in Beta4 the amount of their bonus depends on the amount of essence in the city). Additional City Enchantments like Set in Stone (+100% production but no research), Blood Sigil (Withers all attackers, Berserks all Defenders) and Sovereign's Call (+1 Growth per Essence) allow you an additional decision on how to specialize your cities. Trust in Glyph of Life to protect your Conclave from attackers, use Pit of Madness to speed the research in your Town.
Essence effectively becomes the most flexible tile yield, doing nothing on its own, but allowing you to reach in and play with the cities configuration. Maybe you want it focused on gold and growth but dispel those enchantments and switch it into battle mode when enemies come near (enchantment maintenance is gone, but these spells still cost mana to cast so "respecting" your city isn't something you should do lightly).
Step 7: Balance
I find myself carefully considering the build options in my cities. That doesn't mean it will be perfect. I'm very curious to hear from all of you on what enchantments you use most and which you don't use at all. Do you focus just on one sort of city type or play with a mix? Do you chase down improvement chains to the end, or do you pick a variety of improvements in your cities?
In a few weeks you will have a chance to play and I'm excited to get your thoughts. Until then we have work to do, mostly in making sure all the information is being displayed in an easy to understand way, and generally polishing the entire game to smooth the edges.
Building fort/military cities could become a bit odd under this new system.
On one hand you desire a maxxed out fort city for the best troops but every legion you create becomes a source of food consumption and an advancement detractor. So the best strategy is to let the military cities sit there and vegetate until level 5. It wasn't such a problem before because you could access almost any improvement short of a few specials awarded on level up.
Looking forward to beta 4.
I suggested an auction house system early on. That included selling special quest hero contracts.
The frog says he is pushing for a beta 5 and 6, but we might be finished at the end of beta 4. Only time will tell. AI can make or break a game like this (broke Warlock for me).
Derek makes all the decision on Beta cycle I think. There is no reason he would end things at Beta 4 since it won't cover any of the end of development polish he has mentioned in previous posts. This game has to be perfected by release because most of the money will come from the expansion. As a consumer I am in a very contentable position.
Sounds interesting, been waiting forever for another update, so was great to finally see one. As least on paper everything sounds pretty good to me, solving the balance and samey-ness issues. Essence especially seems like a good idea, since it might make for some really interesting combos later on or the ability for some much more interesting enchants. I do wonder how city curses are going to work, if there is any limit to those as well, or if they take up an essence slot, or what.
I hope that prestige effects are more emphasized in Beta 4. I think with more interesting outposts the contrasts of big cities vs lots of cities could be more compelling.
Anyways, glad to hear more on the FE front once again!
Perhaps once a city reaches it's maximum population (regardless of it being level 5) it gets removed from the prestige calculations. This would provide an alternative strategy to building up your one or two cities to max before expanding, as apposed to plopping down every city as fast as possible running pubs.
Why not start at 10 then instead of one? Seriously, most other games with income per person do not work through such massive orders of magnitude as this one. That's you're problem. Try it one day: start towns at 10 population and halve the income per head. You'll be less limited in the early game and kill the gold glut in the late game.
There's a very good reason for production per head: it means that, no matter what, so long as my population is growing I will always have more to play with tomorrow than I do today. If you instead fix income to city levels, it's much more possible for me to reach a catch 22 situation where i can't get to the next level and increase my income, because i don't have enough income to afford that building i need, and that balance never changes.
Don't get me wrong, I'm generally a big fan of basing things on level. I argued long and ahrd to ditch the specialist system and just link buildings to level. But you can't link EVERYTHING to level. Especially when there's so few of them and they're often very far between.
Population starts higher than 10.
Derek, I just read your post and I'm loving your ideas, I knew you and your colleagues would come up with the goods. I'm super keen to try out the next beta and see how these play out.
To answer your question about city enchantments and buffs, I do these things:
1) play meditation on all smaller settlements
2) play inspiration on any half decent settlement
3) I have a focused troop training city buffed with all the aura of vitality type spells
4) My core cities get the enchanted hammers and obsession buffs
5) I use gentle rain on cities that have reached their growth limits
6) I like the fire moat enchantment alot but I've actually never been forced into a position where I needed to use it
7) I use bless city on the core cities but I never bother with curse city
8) I never bother with any of the massively expensive buffs for cities or champions (you know the 500 mana, get some minor buff) type spells - I consider them overcosted and would never use them even if I was drowning in mana - similarly the raise and lower land spells have become too expensive to warrant using too
So yeah I use loads of the enchantments really. Having essence capping the number of enchanments on cities is an excellent idea BTW
Gentle Rain should probably switch to Food per Grain so it is easier to calculate yields.
I know I'm a bit late reading Derek's post but I must say it is great news. We'll have to see how the actual implementation works but in theory Derek is fixing virtually all of the problems I had with FE. This could truly be awesome.
I am a little unsure what sort of trade-offs there are to building more cities. Needing to defend them and getting slightly less growth per city due to prestige help mitigate the effects but don't really change that expanding is crucial. Not that I want to stop expansion, empire building is fun, and nor would I want a crap mechanism like Civ 5 happiness. However there could be room for a Civ 4 type short term economic cost to expansion. The key to Civ 4's system is that given enough time the economic benefits of new cities will outweigh the cost but that short term cost makes one think carefully otherwise they risk tanking their economy and taking too long to dig themselves out again.
Of course they might not want this sort of mechanism in FE and based on Derek's post I'm feeling pretty confident that they know what they are doing...
Thanks for the update notes! Looking forward to trying it out.
Interesting that there can be more cities now, Would it be possible to put in some way to increase city spacing based on map size? maybe a slider so you could adjust the city spacing for different map sizes?
I really, really hope you will succeed in this. I have yet to see a TBS in which any queue has been able to have this power. I believe this will be your hardest task. If you succeed: hat's off, you will have made a truly wonderful breakthrough and mastered a very difficult game mechanic which will surely make for a great game. I am, however, apprehensive, since (again) I have never seen this done before, and you will need to have wonderful options much more intruiging than any a Civilizations franchise has ever shown to light, and keep these options halfway balanced from early game through end game. How I wish you to succeed here, if even at the cost of everything else! This would truly be an answer to the greatest constraint: constant polyvalent player choices!
All the other stuff was not unexpected... so my favorite part of Beta 4 is quoted above.
Wow, sounds awesome! Can't wait
Hm, I agree with this concern, as well.
Maintenance in 4x games represents real issues (armies cost, services cost and so on): having to face them is an interesting strategic element; you shouldn't build more things than you're able to handle. It's also interesting in that you have to figure out different paces for different cities, know when it's time to take a break, know if a city "spends too much" but can be covered by the richer ones, and so on. No maintenance means it's always just a frantic rush to build and build and build, and another layer of strategy concerning city development goes away (together with workable tiles).
So I guess this is another baffling decision for me... one of the MANY that have come with this game, at this point.
I still hope the mix with the good stuff will work, though.
I love the idea that Forts will have to be supported by towns. It will force us to place them in protective areas to guard the towns that are fueling the economy. But how will the AI learn to choose the right spot for a Fort? It can't currently choose the right place for a city. Lots of AI work to be done.
You're right, it appears it does now start at 30 and tops out around 1000 for a level 5 (correct me if i'm wrong). That's a 33x increase in population and income, before buildings are applied.
In Medieval 2 Total War a capital city that ends the game as a huge city with 30000 poulation starts off about 5000. That's a 6x increase.
My argument still stands: start the population higher and we won't get ridiculous late game incomes.
Setting income by level is a cop out. Hell, it's not even hard to work out how to do the exact same thing with income per person of population. If they're going down the route that a level 5 city should earn 100 gildar, and a level 2 should earn 10 (ie 1 tenth), then it would be exactly the same to have a income per head and just give a set the level 5 population requirement to 10x that of a level 2. Why not just get the population requirements right, and then you keep the advantages of a continuously increasing income, rather than huge jumps every few hundred turns?
I have always hated building maintenance and am glad to see this echoed up on high. If you give me a building that increases my income by 10% but costs 1 gildar per turn, suddenly I have to get my calculator out to work out if it makes me richer. It's not fun, it's just a way of rewarding tedious micro. It's the same thing with the "while-the-queue-is-empty" buildings where I sit and try to work out how much if any of the time it will be empty. I'd rather spend my time casting spells and designing units.
Unit maintenance is a different matter of course, because it's value is more difficult to quantify.
Can't wait for the beta 4, and hopefully it will not be this, but it sounds like you are encouraging a decrease in outpost spam and a increase in city spam. The A.I spams cities enough as it is, if this increases the need to spam cities to be effective, that's a bad thing. Specialization is great and all, but If I want to build just a few powerful cities that seems even less of an option now.
There are pros and cons of production by level, but in this case it could work. I would need to play beta 4 to really form an opinion. The problem with the incremental increases in research, production, and gildar with population was that food became the only meaningful resource. This new system would seem to solve that by making leveling choices affect those areas more than food. So grain, materials, and essence are possible to balance, where before nothing beat grain. That makes me like idea from the start.
Using population has its own downsides. It makes calculations for leveling much more difficult. A level system gives alot of information at a glance. Another way to think of it is each town is a champion. People are XP and levels are still levels. I like the idea of parallel mechanics so that learning one informs you about the other. The old population system has a disconnect between levels and population, where levels never truly mattered except to unlock new buildings. Population has alot of good sides to it, but there is not much it does that cannot be achieved with a level system. If the devs are willing to make the capture penalty reduce all the things one should expect, I don't see a problem. Continually increasing economy is not really too realistic in the first place. In the second, it is incongruent with other mechanics. Still, I could be satisfied either way.
Hard to say without a copy to play, but that is my take on it.
I disagree. Civ 4 largely achieves this. Most buildings in Civ4 have no or low maintenance costs. The constraint for virtually all of the game is that you only have enough production to build some of the buildings and units you want. This is part of its greatness.
I agree entirely with Derek on this. It sucks to research a new technology with new buildings and then conclude that it isn't currently worthwhile building any of the buildings anywhere. For example in earlier versions of Civilization banks had maintenance costs (3 gold) so they were only worth building in quite wealthy cities and would cost you in many cities. In Civ 4 they have no maintenance. The benefit they provide is still pretty marginal in a small city but if you really want to pursue gold production heavily and are willing to put up with having less troops/research/settlers/everything else you could have used the production to build instead, then you are free to go for it.
IMO it is more fun that way and when done correctly it doesn't hurt the strategic nature of the game (can even enhance it, to me the Civ 4 buildings give more strategic choices than the Civ 3 versions, there is little strategic choice if it is counterproductive to build half the buildings in 90% of your cities and your build queues sit empty as a result).
Note that I am only talking about building maintenance here. City maintenance is a completely different matter and again I think Civ 4 did an excellent job here. City maintenance rises as you expand the number of cities in your empire meaning that rapid expansion will hurt unless/until you can grow the new cities to provide enough income to cover the expense.
First of all, I want to say great update Derek. Really loving this direction you're going towards.
The shopkeepers of Elemental are the true bad guys of the game, this is true. The gap has been decreased in Beta4, shop prices have been halved but sell prices are the same. Also anywhere you see an items value it is it's sell value (it was confusing to see "Value 200" and only be able to sell it for 20).
But that gap will continue to exist. Its a nessesary evil if we want the player out grabbing lots of crazy stuff in the wilderness (and we do) without completely upsetting the economy.
I never liked the idea that the sovereign is selling priceless artifacts to merchants for a piece of bread. The whole thing looked very obviously like a game balancing mechanic. However now that we have essense I have an idea. What if instead of having the option to sell artifacts to merchants, you could instead turn them into essense? I'm not sure how essense works exactly but from what you described it's like material (i.e. something you store) which should work just fine and be much more thematic. Even possible requiring an early technology advance to do it.
I guess you should only do that with items that are magical in nature but it would give the player a nice way to boost the essense stores if they are big on exploring but not on conclaves. Alternatively, allow both to turn it into essense or sell it to the black market or something. Even more nastily, have an item that you sold to the black market either apper in the hands of a champion that another player can recruit, or even held by a monster. This could theoretically allow you to make the selling cost of the item higher by adding an additional risk.
I did mention this as a possible solution (using Mana as the universal essence for creating and breaking down hero items in Elemental):
https://forums.elementalgame.com/418049
and specifically and succinctly:
https://forums.elementalgame.com/418005/get;3087655
I couldn't agree less. I find the Civ 4 BTS building queue to be, like its earlier iterations, poor after mid-game has been established, and mind-bogglingly boring once late-game has been reached. In CivIV, the only thing I end up doing is building mechanized infantries in cities A, B, and C, jet fighers in D and E, and bland unit X in cities F, G, and I - because there is nothing left to build. Even before I have reached this sad state, in which I have exhausted my "choices" by building every single one, I never felt that I was actually making a choice, unless it was a minor one in order. Agreed, I felt some minor sense of accomplishment when a new technological breakthrough was reached which finally gave me a new building to build, but this was never a "choice" between mutually exclusive benefits, and rarely a "choice" in that I had to consider if building the item was in fact a wise decision.
With few exceptions, all cities feel identical in Civilization. I never feel constrained whatsoever, neither by time nor resources. While the Civilization iterations succeeded in making a compelling and captivating experience for early game situations (which many other games also do well) and also in setting the bar for quality and creating a locus classicus to which almost all other 4X TBS games must refer, I belong to the minority of people who have only been able to finish 1 or 2 games before late game tedium sets in. I think the Civilization series was good, but that they failed in creating a fun queue constrained only by supposedly near-limitless possibilities. The possibilities were, indeed, exceptionally limited, and soon became drudgingly similar.
Civ V "uses the queue" much better than Civ IV.
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