It's been a while since I posted on the forums. I saw rebellion was coming out and it frankly excited me. I'm glad I've purchased the game as I can clearly see the devs got their creative juices flowing, but still.......
The game has some balance issues. Here goes nothing, in no particular order:
-Corvettes-
The Good: I like the idea. These are essentially fighters on steroids. The units are understandably frail which is the right way to balance this type of unit. These serve as a good early game fleet.
The Bad: You could argue this unit is a bit too strong. Composite damage mixed with very light armor means only flak stand a chance against these little buggers. I'm glad to see flak finally has a role, but even flak has it's problems. Once you have an "army" of flak, how do you go on the offensive? You can't destroy s***. Some folks make it sound like the sky is falling. I don't think corvettes are THAT bad, but the unit could use some tweaking. Maybe have them do anti-heavy damage?
The WTF: People are spamming these things like crazy. I think the fad will go away once people learn to use flak.
-Vasari Loyalists-
The Good: The techs keep in line with the Vasari lore.
The Bad: Holy.....honest question. Did the devs playtest this? Once the vasari loyalist hits the midgame stage, they hit a gear that the other factions can't match. The credit bonus is untaxed income and the lab bonus gives the vasari access to "late game" technology earlier than intended.
The WTF: People are abusing the loyalists at the moment. You can use the untaxed income and lab bonuses to get huge fleets far quicker than the other factions can.
-Vasari Rebels-
The Good: Overall, everything works out pretty well with these guys in my opinion. I like how the new techs mix with the Vasari lore.
The Bad: You knew this was coming. Tier 8. Starbase phase jumping. WHAT!. No seriously. WHAT! I know the Vasari are all about mobility, but think about this! The vasari starbase can already keep up with titans. Now the thing can jump from grav well to grav well? NO. Either take it out or adjust it to "only jumps to friendly systems"
The WTF: I covered it in the bad. I've only seen a few players actually do it, but it's bad when you see someone abuse it.
Verdict
Overall, the game is solid in my opinion. With a few tweaks, it could be even better.
Cheers to the folks at Stardock. I bought another title from you and I'm glad I did.
Raging Amish
You left out the Kultorask titan being able to sit in the middle of an enemy fleet and not die ever while its opponents are disintegrated en-masse.
I completely disagree with this. Now if it was the roaming Starbase and Titan vs the 4 TEC caps and titan then yes the TEC would most likely lose. But just the two vasari vessels vs a TEC fleet with supporting vessels including fighters and bombers I believe the TEC would win the day. Even if the Vasari had a supporting fleet as well. As long as the TEC had a proper supporting fleet which including a fair amount of strike craft and possible torpedo cruisers the starbase would be taken care of giving the rest of the TEC vessels free reign on the Vasari titan and any supporting fleet.
That makes no sense. They can "freely roam", but only to friendly AND uncontested grav wells? Considering the limited number of average phase lanes per grav well and the fact that there can still only be one SB per grav well you have pretty much just nerfed the jumping Orky into oblivion. There is no reasonable justification for "friendly only" jumps. Like using fleet supply, this is not a viable option.
The fact that it needs to be revised is well known and virtually undisputed. I do, however, disagree with your assessment of the matchup (depends alot on that "large fleet"...any ogrovs and SB goes down in couple minutes tops). Definately not as easy as you are making it sound like. The SB is of great tactical advantage, OP right now, but not overwhelmingly so.
+1
Having the SB being able to only jump into friendly grav wells makes sense. SB are meant for defense correct? So you would jump a SB into your grav well which is currently being attacked and provides defense. if you can move the SB around and into an enemy grav well and use it as an offensive weapon it should honestly use fleet supply as least for the time it is in an enemy controlled gravwell or neutral gravwell. Or have the SB weapon and armor systems operating at very low capacity while traveling through an enemy or neutral gravwell as a consequence
Except that the Vasari starbase isn't strictly defensive. Unlike the TEC and Advent, the Vasari don't have a dedicated anti-structure unit. The Orkulus is designed to compensate for this by being able to be deployed in the middle of a firefight. The point of the Phase-Jumping is to make that a bit easier so that one doesn't have to build a whole new starbase with each attack.
Ahhh I see, Well I do not play multiplayer so have not had to face anyone who phase jumps in several of the SB's and a titan and had to deal with them, but it doesnt seem OP'd if your the TEC as i have mentioned before the ogrovs will make short work of the SB's while your titan and caps can take care of the titan and your strike craft can deal with both. It just makes you revise your strategy and makes you think about how to deal with them. It seems anyone who is getting decimated by sumone using this tactic is not adapting and overcoming it, just throwing anything they can at it.
Star base phase jump charge rate could be permanently 700% slower?
Increasing the phase jump charge up rate would help as you could not defend several planets with only one starbase.
It however would not fix it opness... because all the VR had to to was to wait another 40 seconds or so.... and kill you then.
Wail of the sacraficed is fine --> you loose an entire planet for it and it is only usefull on larger planets which are comparable seldom. If you reduce its damage, it is going to be worthless mid game and later. I am fine with it making you loose the planet no matter what, as long as it remains that powerfull.
Corvettes need a rebalancing too... right now any competive MP game is won by the guy who spams the most corvettes in the beginning --> boring. Perhaps they should be hard countered by fighters?
For jumping Orkies, I'm starting to think that they should suffer damage upon phase jumping. My reasoning is that the Orkulus causes Phase Distabilization- wouldn't it be effected by the problems of jumping in destabilized lanes? It might help balance out the Rebels a little bit.
SPOILER ALERT
The Vasari Rebels are the ones who are trying to get everyone together and RUN LIKE HELL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The Vasari Loyalist are the ones who destroy worlds for resource and GTFO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So I bet the faction that is chaseing the Vasari is
A DemiGod Faction but who knows but it could be ninjas!!! kittens!! or pigs...
But the next game whould probley have these unkown faction.
The Xel'Naga hahahaha sorry Blizzard
Just have the Orky jump between Grav wells at 25% speed. The jumping Orky costs more than any unit in the game. With the money you spend on a single upgraded Starbase you could actually build a pretty nice fleet. Also nerfing the Vasari starbase's damage and health into the ground is stupid as shit. Seeing as Vasari ships are more expensive in both cost and supply they need something that allows them to compensate. So if you really want to nerf the SB, then buff every single Vasari ship to be inline with the other factions.
@Skote
True, an upgraded Orky isn't cheap. At the same time though, an orky does not cost fleet supply. This is a major advantage, as fleet supply upgrades drain your economy.
Well it seems a possible fix would be that when you upgrade the orky with ability to travel between grav wells it begins to use fleet supply. An amount that fits its power and ability so a person can not just spam a large amount of them, and must me more mindful of how they use them.
You were warned, now here comes the hammer. You can NOT use fleet supply for starbases...under ANY circumstance. Let me explain why, for the slow. Aside from it being a stupid ass suggestion in the first place, what could the possible "fleet supply" be for a starbase. 50 like a cap ship or 150 like a titan (any suggestion of using less is pandering). The common complaint (read: whining) is that an SB has the strength of a titan, so why not 150. So that means you are sacrificing around 20-25 frigates for an SB. The suggestion that "only if its jumping should it use fleet supply" is akin to mental retardation. So I can't jump if I don't have my 50-150 fleet supply that I must leave available? And what about larger maps where I may need multiple mobile SBs? You can't "spam" starbases as only 1 is allowed per grav well, so that BS is nullified. Admittedly, SB hopping may be a problem but there are several ways of nerfing that without completely destorying the advantage as suggested by using fleet supply (phase jump cooldown/speed etc). Adding an extra upgrade slot to allow for jumping would also help remedy the OPness by ensuring that you will never have a fully armed/armored/SC SB jumping in...something would have to be sacrificed for the ability. The jumping Orky is OP right now, but using fleet supply is not an option. The attempt at justification (failed attempt) that SB are for defense and therefore should only be able to jump to friendly wells is also bordering on stupidity. The Vasari already use their starbases offensively and even have a tech that lets them biuld SB in enemy grav wells quicker. The jumping Orky is really only saving the 5-10 minutes it takes to biuld and upgrade an Orky. "But I could deal with an unbuilt Orky in 5-10 minutes...its still too OP...", quit your whining and deal with a built one. If y ou are playing against a VR then you should know that this is a possibility and should be prepared for it (mines, SC, orgovs if you are TEC etc). I have never played as the VR, so I am completely unbiased and do not want this tacitical advantage nerfed by whining imbeciles simply because they cannot adapt. Solution: add upgrade option for SB to be able to jump, possibly add additional research tree to get the ability (similiar to the 3 researches needed for twin SB for the TECL). I am also a fan of reducing its phase jump speed to like 50-75% of regular ships OR having a short cooldown period before the Orky can move/attack once reaching a grav well (possibly in addition to have a cooldown before the Orky can jump again, this would help with hopping SB).
Incase it wasn't made clear, using fleet supply is not an option...end of debate.
Debate only OFFICIALLY ends when I say so. I am the gatekeeper of the debate-ending seal, bestowed to me by the Almighty StamPunk-Mao... O was it RoboMarx?
Translation:
Trololololol I don't agree with you, ergo you are an idiot trololololol trololol trololol.
Trolololololol peanut-head argument about Orky build-speed trololololol trololol.
Ahem, there is no such thing as 'not biased' unless you consider yourself somehow superior to other people to the point of godlike omniscience. Usually the most intellectually inept adopt this stance, especiall about things they are completely ignorant about. Absolute ignorance in precisely the skill which would enable them to identify their limitation. Learn to reason and respect instead of just shotgun firing derogatories on opinions diverging from yours.
I OFFICIALLY support fleet supply cost for the jumping SB for the sake of controlling its population. Doesn't need to be any more or less than 1 capital ship. (1 commander, 50 fleet supply).
Jumping in a fully upgraded SB is very different from building a level 1 SB and defending it while it builds, gradually upgrade once it comes online, and dish out the damage.
Should also either be 1 standalone upgrade slot or a second level of phase gate.
Very inciteful. You are confused about the definition of bias. I don't play as VR so I have no stake in them keeping any tactical advantages. If anything, I would more likely want it nerfed more than less. Has nothing to do with superiority of any kind. Nice jab with the "intellectually inept" banter...might fool some of the 3rd graders here into thinking you know what you're talking about.
Ok, I will apologize for the "tone" of my post since it was apparently too much for some...argument however, still stands.
Really? Its "very" different...not just "different". No sh*t it's different. I remember posting specifically about that being the difference. If all the races had the same strategic and tactical options it would be a very boring game. No one supporting the fleet supply suggestion has brought anything to the table as to why that suggestion should be used instead of the others (upgrade slot/research/cooldown etc). The only explanation is that those supporters basically want to nerf this ability into oblivion because "wahhh, I don't want to have to fight an enemy SB in my own grav well in the mid-late game...it seriously hurts my chances of winning and makes me have to spend $ on defenses". Using fleet supply (and heaven forbid, cap supply as well?!?) is akin to crushing an ant with an anvil...It is unfustifiable overkill. Thats all that I am saying. Tell me why the fleet/cap supply option is the ONLY way to nerf this instead of the other options, or combination of other options, listed. And please, limit the superiority phsycobabble to a minimum (read: nil). Your first line was humorous, almost endearing...the rest was...disappointing?
^ E: If "Inciteful" wasn't a misspelling, that's actually pretty clever. If it was a misspelling, it's one of the most Serendipitous ones I've ever seen.
The TEC struck me as the losers this time around, and I admit right up front that it could just be my playstyle. While I flourished in the first game (and Entrenchment) as the TEC, in this game I can't seem to break muster.
The titans are middling, especially the Loyalist one and I can't seem to work around that, other than the obvious spam solutions. When I truck the big boy into someone else's orbital zone, he's really just a bigger capital ship without any frills. And while I can economize on the ship counts, I constantly find myself replenishing and replenishing. This counteracts the benefits of novalith cannon co-ordination and I think blurs the aim of this faction.
Two stations per well is definitely the Loyalist TEC's star player here. However, because of their static ranges, costs, and limited functionality, two stations aren't twice as good as one station.
I also seem to be the only person I know who still favors the Advent over Vasari and TECs. The Vasari work for me like a zeppelin - once you get them up and moving, they're great. Before then, you're sloughing around in no-man's land. With their cannon opening a phase portal at the target, I don't think their station's ability is overpowered.
I agree, the TEC do seem weak. Stacked bases does help the loyalist with a pretty solid defense but they need a weapon range buff (Advent too...Vasari have a mobile starbase so its range can remain the same). This would also have the added benefit of making defense against the now famous OP jumping Orky more manageable. Maybe add it as a defense/security resarch upgrade similiar to the one that gives the SB an extra target per bank (maybe as a second upgrade for that same research?...increase range by 20-35% or so). I think all the defense structures for all races need a slight range buff at least. The Vasari cannon opens a phase portal?...I did not know that lol (starts new game as VL to try it out)
Well from my reading using fleet supply is just one of the suggestions offered, keyword being "offered". Those putting foward the use of fleet supply are also giving reasons for it. This isnt some sort of lynch mob against the orky and the options are fleet supply...or else. Just seems that some people commenting here think fleet supply would be a good idea to tone back the orky a bit that is all. I think you just might be a little too passionate and taking it a little too farrr..... I really don't see a problem with using fleet supply to tone it back a little bit the upgraded orky is in a sense a titan correct. Well if you had the resources and built several of them you could send multiple orkys to multiple enemy grav wells, maybe they have SB;s as well maybe not. The option of using fleet supply limits their proliferation into an offensive role. And it possible to send in multiple orkys into an enemy grav well, its just only 1 is active at a time. One goes down another comes on line so if you had another race and their titan and fleet vs the Vasari their titan and their fleet along with a group of orkys i think the vasari have the overall advantage simply due to their moving starbases. This is just my opinion and there are of course other viable options and good opinions with ideas to back them up. Just my 2 cents
Yes, they are giving reasons for it but it is the same as yours; in essence "toning it down". The problem I see with the suggestion is that it doesn't "tone down" the jumping Orky, it virtually removes it as a viable option, especially on small fleet games, and to a lesser extent normal fleet games. What I cannot understand, and this probably has me admittedly more upset than it should..., is how this option is so popular compared to the other options, or combination of other options, that have been offered. Using fleet supply = nuking jumping Orky...especially if, and this I find ultimately rediculous, if it uses a cap slot AND 150 fleet supply as someone else (on another thread I believe, not here) suggested. Even 50 is too much for this problem (and it is granted that as is, it is a problem). A moderate and more appropriate solution is A: increase weapon range (or resarch option to increase weapon range, of other races SBs, add upgrade slot for jumping as a requirement and/or additional research requirement or a cooldown limitation (either for jumping itself or before Orky can move/attack after a jump). I dunno, it just seems so obvious to me...I'm gonna drop the subject for a while and see how it goes. No offense intended towards anyone...
I think the whole reason people flock to fleet supply is like i said before reducing how OP'd they are. Look at it this way of course i do believe another upgrade slot should be in place for the orky to be able to jump into neutral or enemy grav wells. The orky can jump in an out of friendly wells to their hearts content without using fleet supply. Yes alot of people seem to think the orky is OP'd basically another titan so some of the other ideas might seem good on paper and yes possibly if the orky jumps in by itself or with a small fleet. But as stated before it is basically another titan so the player would have 2 titans and a fleet in an engagement which gives them a great advantage. I think using a cap ship supply and commander is a great idea it takes away a small part of the fleet that the player would have had and evens the odds between the two players. Also mentioned before wat would prevent a player from have multiple jumping orkys and while a players fleet is occupied against another player his other orkys just jump into his other grav wells. So am I making any sense whatsoever? I just think using fleet supply is one of the more attractive options. The orky itself still remains powerful but the player is limited when using them offensively so he can not steam roll others.
That's why I suggested 1 captain + 50 fleet as a balancing factor for the jumping Orky. You are basically trading a capital ship for something much more powerful, able to face several of them (capitals) at once. That's not 'nerfing into irrelevance'.
It's also not just the matter of Orky + Titan on the same gravwell. It's also that the VR can attack simultaneously in several gravwells with several Orkies, and good luck defending all those fronts at once. The orky can retreat back to its defensive position if needed, or if it's badly damaged. It opens up the possibility of using the same resources allocated for both great offense and defense, whereas other SBs are defensive-only.
There must also be some way to make the jump ability+fleet cost optional, otherwise all SBs would have this cost and that would indeed cripple the VR offense and defense.
That's why it should also be a second level of the phase gate.
Like I said.....and he said!! We are not seeking to nerf the Orky itself and its awesome power, the fleet supply option just nerfs their offensive proliferation plain and simple. The fact of the matter is the vasari need the orky to be able to compete what makes it OP'd is not the orky itself just simply the amount a player could bring to bear (sp?) on an enemy. Using fleet supply limits this
Must...hold back...from...continuing this...endless discussion...
Of how wrong you all are lol j/k..seriously, i kid.
I just hope a more moderate approach is attempted first to see how it goes.
On a serious (and different) topic, anyone have an opinion on my idea for the Coronata?
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