Where the vasari starbases would be the fastest (we'll call this 100% starbase movement speed)
Advent starbases would move at 50-75% of this speed,
and TEC starbases would move at 25-35% of this speed.
This would ensure that all starbases are useful in defending their gravity well. This also adds to the game's skill requirement as all the main defenses in the game aren't quite so static.
This would also be a way to start to balance the vasari rebel's phase jumping starbases so that the vasari rebel tactical advantage isn't so huge when they use their starbases in a gravity well.
the guy is just causing trouble !
-Lord Brony
Please stay on topic.
Okay. I don't like this idea.
Is there a reason why you don't like this idea?
I haven't been playing this game for that long, but it doesn't take a seasoned player to realize how overpowered mobile Star bases are, even in AI games.
My vote goes to making all Star bases stationary, that will effectively put a stronger emphasis on positioning and strategy respectively.
Diversity is great between factions, but there are a billion other ways to mix and balance faction specific mechanics, i don't see this being such an issue to remedy.
Speed is really the main factor for balance. Developers having control over that speed is necessary. If a starbase can still move slow enough to intercept a constructing starbase in a gravity well yet have difficulty catching an enemy fleet all by itself, I would consider this balanced(yes, vasari don't have building destroyers, their starbases are both tougher and they have minelayers and overseers which are both the best units of their type, and will ensure that you can build up a powerful starbase of your own in that gravity well, which will move faster then other starbases allowing the vasari starbase to build up its attack/defense capabilities).
The point is if you build a starbase in your gravity well, as the defender, you should have a larger advantage.
Instead of a dynamic where "one races moves, the others don't", you can have a better implimentation that allows you more control over game balance by "one race moves decently fast, the other is slower, the most powerful is the slowest".
It COULD be powerful in certain situations, yet so COULD most of the endgame abilities available. Fleets have more ways of getting wiped out in one hit, and in my opinion, this is a good thing. It truly gives players more ways to measure each other and themselves by. If something COULD be OP in some situations, yet not all, then it actually COULD be balanced. The frequency of the tactical situation needs to be taken into effect as well, some abilities are inherently overpowered because the tactical situation is likely to occur multiple times in every game, where others are super strong abilities where the tactical situation might never appear in a game.
If your opponent dances around your inherent strengths as a faction, then this is attributed to either luck or skill, depending upon the ability. Either way, its not overpowered as its avoidable.
How avoidable something in factors into how OP it is as well.
A moving starbase is very avoidable, as you don't have to really face them on the defensive. Sure, you will see more "attack starbases" by TEC and Advent, yet at the same time this strategy won't be nearly as easy to achievebecause of the surprise element is greatly diminished due to the clunky slow nature of the TEC and Advent starbase constructors.
Slow constructors increase the amount of time to get to the area, which increases the risk associated with scouting.
Also, in single player play, If a moving starbase makes things easier for you, then you can do something.
You can increase the difficulty level of the AI you face(which makes you feel more like a "badass singleplayer").
If facing max lvl AI, face max lvl AI and another AI opponent in a 2v1 scenario.
The game's scalability is its strength, learn it and love it singleplayers!
Yes. This takes away from the uniquesness of the vasari.
okay, so the vasari use movement as their unique advantage for almost everything in this game, its true.
Yet, by having the 2x fastest starbase, they still have a unique advantage because they do something better.
They can still starbase uprotected worlds better then any other race because they have cheap, fast colony ships that can be lost in greater numbers and used with far less risk then that of their counterpart races. They can research increased starbase construction speed in an enemy gravity well, which allows them to have a far greater chance of success in surprising an enemy with their offensive starbase construction.
The fact is, the way the vasari play won't change at all. Why nerf what is already a fun playstyle?
The thrill of the highly effective surprise attack will still be yours because the other aspects of the vasari tech tree supports the playstyle, making the vasari still the kings of starbases.
The way the other races will play will change, and the vasari will face a stronger defense from opposing races, its true. Yet at the same time, this assists in balancing the vasari's inherently overpowered tactical superiority. Vasari players might have a harder time attacking an opponent, so they will have to make better use of their abundant phase node technologies. This only increases the skill requirement and interesting tactical use of these abilities. This increases the usefulness of the antorak marauder, one of the most underused vasari capitals.
This only adds to gameplay and the game, and does not take away from it. Vasari will still have the vast movement advantage. As vasari you will still be able to defend and attack within a minute of each other on any front of your empire. That is the vasari uniqueness, and it won't be diminished in the slightest, because that uniqueness is based upon PHASE NODES, not the fact that vasari starbases can move and the others can't.
So, quite frankly, you have a very weak argument.
I have been reading this post and and skimming the replys and I do have an idea as to what I think, I just have some questions about this as I do not play as the Vasari (I prefer the TEC Loyalist) and would not like to humiliate myself by posting blindly without all the facts.
1) Does the Vasari Star Base move faster and/or slower then Capital Ships and Titans?
2) What weapons does it have and what range do they have? Also, can they Bombard Plants.?
3) How much stronger are they compared to other Star Bases?
4) How much, if at all, Fleet Supply does it use? Also, does it need Command Supply? (like Capital Ships and Titans)
I do apologize for any grammatical errors and/or unclear statements and would like to also mention that I have just started playing.
1) slower than cap ships, a little slower than a titan
2)decent range on weapons, yet about 1/5-1/4th the area of most gravity wells. They cannot bombard planets like regular capitals/titans. The advent starbase has a special upgradable ability which has to have the "meteor" ability upgrade, an upgrade requiring 6 military labs. This ability is rather slow in taking down a planet and not at all overpowered considering the price.
3) Vasari starbases are the strongest 1v1 against any other starbases. With other defensive structure support the vasari starbase is still stronger (as it is currently) because it can go in, kill the defending structures, and then retreat to safety, get healed, and then attack the starbase solo at full health. This is a very low risk strategy that guarantees a vasari victory with little to no skill because the non vasari opponent cannot move their starbase. More skill is involved, requiring more meaningful player actions, by having all starbases have movement. This would require vasari players to have to work more at maintaining their advantage, instead of having it gifted to them on a silver platter by the developers.
4)Starbases do not require fleet supply because they are a defensive structure that once built are limited to movement within the gravity well they were built. The one exception to this rule is the Vasari Rebel's jumping starbase, which can move like any other fleet ship through phase lanes and it costs no logistics/capital-ship-crew supply. Since this is extremely imbalanced(and has been banned in online multiplayer), it requires many fixes to the game to bring into balance. The fix I propose would help alleviate many problems this game has by providing balance. Along with a Vasari Rebel fleet supply addition to all of their jump starbases (100 logi + 1 cap ship crew) and you will have a much more balanced game. Then it comes to some more minor fixes and number crunching, bringing excel spreadsheet balancing back into viability, making the developer's job easier.
I don't fully disagree with implementing speed variations, but i would prefer they all be stationary and simply give Vasari a more reasonable perk. Though i do take issue with your perception of "Balance" - As it only takes less than 10 seconds for a mobile Star base to get in range of your fleet when invading a planet
Ultimately, a Star base can substitute quite a large fleet, and in a situation where two opposing forces are on level pegging, the imminent inclusion of a fully upgraded Star base will nullify any skill advantages because essentially one side automatically gains 30% more attack force. I know this is balanced out to some degree, but the lack of Destroyers does not balance out the disparity enough.
Thank you for the answers. I had already believed this was to powerful even for a supposedly superior race. I had thought up a few solutions that does not require movement for all bases and one that kinda does so that the ability for the Vasari was still unique. Here are just a few.
1) Making the Vasari Star Base work like a Titan in some ways. For instance the moving ability may have to be reasched first or having a tech for increasing movement speed from a lower value then before..(This would make them easier to counter with defences as they cant get away so easily. Also, it makes it a little more time consuming and costly to get it) Making them need Fleet Supply. ( I do understand that a problem with not being able to defend your planets may be an issue form lack of fleet supply. One could say they would be more attack based now, however this may not be the best solution.)
2) Making all the other Star Bases have larger ranges or maybe some type of ability that slows down ships and can only target Titans and Star Bases. (I am aware other ships have this abilty as i used it to help me fight larger fleets/ships when defending. This would be a good way to help your planets without your fleet. You could also add this ability to say the basic turret instead) (The downside is that having the ability could make it way to difficult to attack a planet for anyone)
3) Basically the same thing Sareth said on the first page of replys with a few changes. Instead of just making them able to move maybe make the Non-Vasari Star base need tech for this or an upgrade. Maybe an ability to "warp" or use a quick burst of thrust to a spot of your choosing inside your gravity well for a decent but heavy price and have a range limit, like (EXAMPLE DISTANCE) 1/4 the gravity well distance. (This is my favorite. In fact I like the idea of orbital defenses being able to move as I am sure that would be how defenses in space would need to work as they would need to constantly use thrust to stay in one spot in orbit. However, I am aware this is a game and realism is not only impractical and to complicated, it is also not very entertaining for a lot of games including this one.
Now as for these solutions/ideas I am aware that they are not perfect and I am open for tweaks/changes or different ways of achieving the same goal.
You think you can reason with an inflammatory delusional troll such as Sareth? Dream on.
He was born to come up with stupid ideas that he tries to enforce on the community. If you fail to be his next noob jedi mind trick then he will say you are off topic or haven't come up with a sufficient reason or logical explanation to explain why tec and advent starbases shouldn't move. Theres no way out of this loop hole but to only continue to be amused at his futile attempts to make all races vasari balanced by being a little like them. It goes without saying that if shit flys to win then my shit must fly to win 2 (sareths world)...except in my case i'd invent a teleportation machine and rofl. Or i might change the laws of physics so shit don't fly (that overseer ability on crack), or i'd just shoot that shit down. Who knows,,
Frankly I do not care what anyone has to say, I'm not here out of hostility. If he wants to say I am wrong he can. I am not one of those people who can't handle it when someone else opinion is different from my own. I also do not see the point in this hostility towards one another here. This post was intended to brainstorm solutions/ideas for the game, not for petty squabbles about who is more intelligent and/or has the best solution. (I went back and read some more)
EDIT: Lol, right after I posted I saw I had posted 7 seconds from exactly one hour after you did.
hihihi--now thats just trolling
I'm not here out of hostility either, and I am here to brainstorm creative solutions for the game as well. I sometimes have to use hostility to assail certain personalities because of their weakness is the result of lack of confidence and ability. This is used to purify the thread of undesirables who truly don't have anything valuable to add. Its my judgement call on this and its also my thread.
What we can and should do is ignore the other person posting on this thread as they have nothing useful to add, aside from their "charming" personality.
You are welcome and I welcome your ideas.
1) So I have a question, do you want to make it so that all starbases can jump to another gravity well? If this answer is Yes, then I would consider this to be a faulty idea because having all jumping starbases would kill off a central Vasari Rebel design that makes them unique.
2)So if a starbase didn't move and yet could defend the entire gravity well with their weapons because the weapon range encompassed the whole gravity well(so that any enemy ship jumping in is under assault, no safe areas), this could be an effective solution as well.
3)This would also be a useful starbase ability. Yet, considering the vasari have the "total, utter monopoly on movement abilities", this will be considered breaching that sacred design barrier and allowing other races a movement ability. As you can already see, people complain about even adding a reasonable suggestion to the game, from a qualified source.
thanks
The other Starbases will never move.
That being said if the Devs could figure out a way to increase starbase range to the full planetary well without shooting thru the planets, that would be the way to go.
What gives you such certainty?
Any upcoming patches will just be clean up to already existing problems, not opening up a whole new set of balancing issues.
Besides a moving TEC and Advent starbase would just look stupid..let them fix the problem with multiple Titans that the Vasari player can throw at you and that's it.
OP is such an obvious troll.
The game will still be imbalanced with their fix.
I'm sure it won't be quite so insanely overpowered, yet fixing that is easy.
A safe position to take, yet some companies aren't going to survive if they keep it safe in the next few development cycles.
carpetbombadamus has spoken
note: alcohol was involved in the creation of this post
+keyboard=fjrlk bacon. Let the vasari keep their mobility advantage.
Oh my god. You guys must be totally insane if you think moving starbases are not op.
Personally, i'd like to see the vasari starbases kept the way they are, but change the others.
The TEC starbase should have its missile range buffed by 40% and missile damage buffed by 25%
The Advent starbase should have its starfighter capacity increased from 20 at max to 30.
I believe that these changes would balance the game as well as making the other bases move while keeping the Vasari as the only race that can "move stuff".
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