Where the vasari starbases would be the fastest (we'll call this 100% starbase movement speed)
Advent starbases would move at 50-75% of this speed,
and TEC starbases would move at 25-35% of this speed.
This would ensure that all starbases are useful in defending their gravity well. This also adds to the game's skill requirement as all the main defenses in the game aren't quite so static.
This would also be a way to start to balance the vasari rebel's phase jumping starbases so that the vasari rebel tactical advantage isn't so huge when they use their starbases in a gravity well.
OP is spot on. Mobile Starbases are damn fun. Jumping Starbases are just idiotic.
Sareth, talking in a totally condescending way is not helping people stay on topic, please just let it go. Now, back on topic? Please?
How did you come by this conclusion?
7 Deadly Sins added moving starbases to all factions as part of defensive balance to counter our expanded gravity wells. Starbases are definitely much harder to take down since bomber spam can't run away.
Yet with the way the OP idea is setup, only the orkulus would really catch carriers. Sure they would have to move their carriers to avoid the starbase and it wouldn't be as easy for a vasari player (who usually just sits there anyways..). They might get hit by one meteor, but that will only take out most of their shields.
Give Titans and Starbases their own squadron type with 9 strikecraft.
Sparda, they can run... into turrets.
That's true, at least a moving base gives a chance to herd them.
Precisely
I've kind of avoided posting my thoughts on this topic so far in order to think about it more but really, sorry Carpet, I think it's a terrible idea. You didn't really respond to concerns about Red Button and Meteor Swarm other than to say "oh that's late tech expensive stuff and Vasari has AOE too". There are already early game advantages for TEC and Advent (better eco, better ships, 2 lab carriers for Advent) to mitigate moving SBs at least somewhat. The main reason though is I don't want to see the game turn even more into offensive SB spam as a main tactic prior to Titans. It would be really boring. It's already a common Vasari tactic. The question is, can Advent and TEC deal with it? Yes, I think they have the tools to do it. Vasari balance concerns are mainly later game with phase missile bombers vs. Advent and the VR jumping SB. The normal SB is powerful but I don't think you've demonstrated why it is OP enough to require such a drastic change to the others.
Actually I do address this issue. Its quite easy to balance them, you could decrease their effective range, especially for red button, and its been stated a few times in this thread by me and others. What would lowering the range of red button do? it would make it less able to wipe out a fleet. Yet giving the TEC a moving starbase would increase the defensive capability of the TEC, especially that of the TEC loyals. Meteor is less of a threat then most people think, it might need a slight nerf but overall it won't be overpowered. What most people don't realize is that the orkulus starbase does more damage then meteor because it can move quickly to keep up with a fleet and fire out all of its banks.
The advent vs. vasari early game matchup is quite one sided. The advent don't have a superior early game ECO to the vasari, and the vasari capital ships are super tough and can clear pretty much any gravity well solo, and they can expand faster than any race and put a super strong defensible starbase up the moment they encounter an enemy force on the front lines.
2 lab carriers for advent actually isn't an advantage, because the advent carriers cost a lot more and are harder to get in any number early on. Considering advent's weak eco, its not really an advantage. Also, advent fighters/bombers are so easily killed by flak that countering this early, expensive buildup is actually cheaper(especially time wise) then the initial buildup itself. So, all things considered, it ends up being an early game disadvantage.
Because its effective. The vasari will have to face a tougher defense and early choke point capturing by advent and TEC as well. Since choke point capture is CRITICAL to this game, giving the vasari player the one sided advantage in this area gives them almost total control in the long term. This should be more balanced, and fights will be closer and more memorable then "oh crap he build a starbase I gotta run now because I can't build useful starbases of my own". Moving starbases are tactically useful, its that simple. Also, the vasari would still be better because they would be faster to deploy their starbases. I've always been a friend of the notion that "closer fights are more memorable, engaging, and likely to have someone play the game longer". If this isn't changed, it will still be a common vasari tactic, with no real counter.
Not really, good vasari players will be one step ahead of you the entire game once they secure that critical chokepoint (you know, the one you can't secure because you don't have a good mobile starbase of your own?). Vasari early game balance has always been a concern since they had moving orkulus's. SB rush! HELLO! It was only the most controversial aspect of entrenchment. Why? because a vasari starbase just strong arms in a win because its too durable, and builds too fast.
he normal SB is powerful but I don't think you've demonstrated why it is OP enough to require such a drastic change to the others.
Hmm, this is an experience only bit, if you play online multiplayer and see how they are used, how fast your opponents have them built, you should laugh at this quote. What i'm suggesting is the least drastic change to the starbases to balance them. A win for game balance, a win for developers and win for players.
If you play single player against fleets of AI's, you should also laugh at this quote because you can mow down huge AI fleets with just a few subverters, one upgraded orkulus, and 10 overseers...
Titans counter each other, and the same one sided fleet still wins because the orkulus can move. A moving orkulus allows it ACTIVELY defend 100% of its gravity well. Compared to the other starbases, who PASSIVELY cover about 1/4 of their gravity well, the orkulus is 4x+ more effective at what its designed to do. Active meaning the ability to chase away an enemy fleet (or at least get them to retreat from the starbase in the gravity well), and passive meaning just sitting there as a target. which one defends better by a large margin? the orkulus. This margin is too large and has been throwing off game balance for years.
In this game, full powered defensive coverage on a gravity well for one race and no others is hugely unbalanced. The vasari still would have the best defensive setup to turtle up and get a strong eco with a fleet, it just wouldn't be so one sided.
If the game gets dull, make building attack abilities even better. After all, the only faction without a strong building attack would be the Vasari Loyals, because the Rebels have the jumping starbase. The faster it takes to reduce starbases the more offensively oriented the game can be.
Also, a few closing points (even though most of these points have already been stated in this thread...).
With the addition of titans, the vasari are the only race that can build a starbase and engage a titan to act as a defensive countermeasure. All other races have their starbases unable to even engage a titan and therefore have a serious defensive disadvantage because of this. its simple, orkulus's can meet the titan with a similar force, and then he who has better fleet support wins the day. the defender has the advantage. With the Advent and TEC, the attacker has the advantage. Moving starbases allow you to have less fleet requirements because you have a better defense. This allows you to have a better economy then your TEC/Advent opponents who HAVE to have a fleet to attack and defend, because they don't really have an effective ACTIVE defense.
If you still don't know what I'm talking about, please play more multiplayer games. However, I see you online a bit and i'm quite surprised that you don't think that I know what i'm talking about. Let me livestream a game on a delay so that I can vs. you and roll you up into a little sandwich and eat you for breakfast.
Then I could link that game to this thread as an added bonus.
Sounds like some fun to me.
Lol - man you are really personally invested in this thread. Do you notice how not a single MP regular agrees that this would be a good balance idea? Does that not tell you anything? I usually play Advent and have faced plenty of my fair share of good Vasari players using SBs. It is annoying and cheesy but can be countered - and yes, bombers work as long as you see the SB rush coming. Bombers expensive you say? SBs are really expensive too. 2 carriers for 6 bombers is roughly the same cost. Add your capital ship bombers and its more than enough to deal with a rush. My point was that I don't want to see this annoying and cheesy playstyle of offensive SB sieging made the norm for all factions.
Early game favours advent. Disciples' edge and faster access to corvettes make Advent much better than Vasari in massing an early rush. Please explain how it is so one sided for Vasari? I've played more MP in Rebellion than you have and I don't see all Advent-Vasari matchups end in crushing defeats as they should by your logic. Why is that? It's really childish the way you lash out at anyone who disagrees with you, I'm pretty surprised tbh. You need to learn how2balancediscuss without your ego being the focus of the topic. People take you more seriously then. Here is a game where you do quite well as Advent vs. Vasari early game:
http://www.2shared.com/file/bTBpuuVe/AutoRecord-10071843.html
How is this possible? Where is this one sided matchup? Are you really just Hercules in disguise and this is some amazing anomaly? Could Advent really have a chance early game?? If you want to 1v1 some time I'd be more than happy to but I don't think the outcome of 1 game will be at all meaningful for this balance topic given the lack of evidence for it so far.
Replay discussion here, to keep this thread on topic:
https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/430538/page/1/#3247201
Also, if you think Vasari SB are OP (and I do think they are a tad strong), why not start with baby step suggestions of increasing their build time by 15% and nerfing their starting damage by 10%? That's the better way to balance - not redesigning all the other factions' SB instead, it just seems ass backwards and is asking to be ignored by the devs. It would be the perfect thing to create a mod of though, just in order to test out how it plays.
Wait what are you saying? So if SB rush is easy to deal with against Vasari why would SB rushes with Advent or TEC be bad? Playing against you they'd be doomed to your bombers, wouldn't they? No offense intended.
I thought it was pretty clear what I wrote. I did not use the word "easy" anywhere.
Sareth's nemesis has long been Vasari and their starbases in particular so it was only a matter of time before his nightmares drove him off the deep-end. I would be up for small nerfs like I proposed but his changes would change the game and balance too drastically. Why all these complex changes (to movement speed and nerfing abilities on Advent and TEC SBs) instead of just a simple small nerf to start on the one causing the trouble? I think the fact that Sareth prefers Heineken explains all...
Disclaimer: All Caps sentances are meant to increase the ease of the target reader's (in this case, Ekko) viewing of certain key points because he has created reasonable doubt via his replies that show a lack of reading comprehension.
Na, its more of a personality trait, I have time to help people understand my point of view and to point out the obvious errors in the opposing points of view. Many multiplayer's who responded to this thread play vasari anyways, so there is an obvious bias...YAWN, I was hoping for a better reply from you but....okay. Also, using the statement "it can be countered" is pretty lame...its like duh, anything in the game can be countered. What you should be saying is that it can be reasonably countered, as in countered in actual games vs. actual skilled players. But then you would be over reaching on your statement and i'd be able to gobble that up reply in two seconds...lol.
Why would vasari multiplayer's be biased against this idea? Because they know that if this suggestion gets implemented their easy-lol wins will be harder to come by because they won't have a built in advantage anymore.
Thanks Sel for pointing out the biggest hole in his position. If all factions can use this starbase mechanic, then all factions have to be wary of its use. Right now the game plays like using a football playbook where most teams aren't allowed to use the best play, while a few favored teams get to ram that play down your throat time and time again. If you nerf the play, then a fun aspect of the game is altogether gone. I'd rather see that fun aspect expanded... Giving everyone access to that play, with varying degree's of efficacy would be easy to implement and retain the fun factor of using that play.
I'm glad you posted this replay ekko, here's your quote from the other thread:
If you watch my matchup with howthe you notice one thing, that he gets fed consistently twice as many resources as I do. I do agree that our feeder was totally lame and never fed any of us nearly as enough cash...Howthe was fed about 50k credits, while I was fed 25k...This allowed him to almost instantly rebuild his heavy fleet losses.
So, my early rush on howthe was going fine, then he started building starbases(predictably). You will notice how quickly and easily he was able to totally thwart my entire assault and defend himself. If he'd been smart and snuck a starbase to my HW while my fleet was engaged a more than a few jumps away from my homeworld he would have won hands down, but howthe wasn't playing that well, even with the feed. There would be NOTHING I could have done to stop the loss of my HW if he'd snuck in a starbase at that point. It comes down to vasari build starbases, and they win. Its because their starbases can move to threaten fleets. Its really that simple, and that one sided in most cases.
So, once I gained the fleet advantage on howthe, I should have been able to attack him ya? But wait, its the orkulus starbase that would eat my destras for lunch...So I have to sit there while he gets feed and his fleet gets built up. Look at the skill involved, He avoids attack because I just can't attack him because he's built his moving starbase, while I have to endure the fact that my fleet is impotent to his starbases. Its a stalemate that howthe needs to have almost zero skill to achieve. Its a warm safety blanket that snuggles all vasari players.
I could build starbases of my own, but that would be a waste of credits because THEY DON'T MOVE, AND BECAUSE THEY DON'T MOVE THEY AREN'T WORTH THE CREDITS BECAUSE THEY CAN'T THREATEN HOWTHE'S FLEET. If i'd been building starbases howthe would have rolled through me easily because he was building bombers, and since advent starbases can't move, I can never force his bombers to move except with my fleet, which means I'll be incurring losses in transit to those bombers, Losses that I CANNOT AFFORD. I should have been able to defend with starbases at that point without a severe gimping of my capability. After all, I had bought myself a bunch of time, something that is very difficult to do against a skilled opponent, especially against howthe playing as vasari. There are no mechanics in the game that reward the advent for superior play. Somehow the whole faction is balanced around the fact that they HAVE to eco up and they HAVE to spend 100% of their credits on themselves to have a good fleet. Its usually difficult to eco as advent on the front lines, while its easy for TEC and vasari to do so because vasari just need 1 orkulus and 2 phase jump inhibitors to defend their gravity wells. Why? because the orkulus CAN MOVE TO KILL AN INHIBITED FLEET(this explanation brought to you by your friendly neighborhood carpetbomb).
Note:If the advent/TEC starbases costed half of what a vasari starbase did that would balance the situation a bit as well. I'm not stating that my suggestion is the only way(as i've stated many times in this thread), i've been stating that this is the best way to add something fun to the game instead of taking away something old.
Anyways, Ekko you didn't see in chat after the game where howthe said "wow, I suck". Its because he knew that despite all the inherent advent vs. vasari matchup advantages he had, and with twice the feed, I held the line. Sure, I have a blazing moment of glory at the very start of the game, yet no advent player can really hold the line against a vasari player for too long if that player is getting even a little feed, as vasari starbases ensure that even with a small feed advantage the vasari still have a long term advantage. Its been a consistent aspect of gameplay that has existed since entrenchment, and it exists because vasari starbases can move and the other's cannot.
Also, Ekko you are seeing one of the few players in the game that can really give those good vasari players the run for their money as advent, so thanks for posting the replay. Even so, a better vasari player would have been on my HW with a starbase early on and I would have been 100% unable to counter it.
So Ekko, we wouldn't want to give everyone this ability to trap fleets like the vasari can, because they have to be the ONLY race capable of it because they deserve this nice warm safety blanket. I wouldn't mind having a blanky too!!!
The amount you play it has no bearing on your ability to perform within the games limits, once you have learned how to play multiplayer matches.
Could Advent really have a chance early game?? Advent have a chance in the early game sure, its their short lived advantage. Starbases, especially with some overseers, are a long term advantage that usually allows the vasari superior units to be acquired in enough number and type to create the "perfect fleet" that will roll through anyone. This usually is just a lasurak spam because nothing really survives very long under attack from 100 vasari bombers. Also, the vasari can very quickly turn that force into defensive fighter squadrons for orkulus's because they have so few fighters in their squads. Oh and on top of that they get phase node tech's, so vasari players are rarely threatened except via their own incompetence. Skilled players don't have this issue.
Also, if you think Vasari SB are OP (and I do think they are a tad strong),
Good, you agree with me that the vasari starbases are in need of balancing. There are more ways to do this then just nerfing the orkulus. Perhaps it will be done as its the simplest fix, but i'd rather enjoy having more options for all players.
The normal SB is powerful but I don't think you've demonstrated why it is OP enough to require such a drastic change to the others.
I've clearly demonstrated this, its just you aren't reading/thinking.
You are instead just being taunting, because you want to make it seem that i'm somehow emotionally reacting to people opposing me.
You failed.
But you are totally objective and neutral right?
No, because nobody is.
Hmm - I wonder why he was able to thwart your rush? Must've been those SBs - nothing to do with twice the feed...nope.
It wasn't Sel. And he didn't point out a flaw in my position - he mistakenly thought I'd said it was easy to counter.
You are hilarious...
More hilarity...
Sareth on the off chance that you are actually serious in all this and this isn't an epic 10 page troll post like your other super weapon-Titan one, yes I agree Vasari have some really strong advantages and need toning down in some areas. You might think the idea of all factions' SBs going mobile as "fun" and yes it probably would be for a mod, but it would introduce more balance problems than it would solve and is a terrible way to go about what could be solved instead with small nerfs.
Good - so while at least being genuine in your answer, you've invalidated your only objection to other MP players opinions. Which brings us to: why should anyone then listen to your opinion instead of theirs when the number of MP players who agree with your idea still currently rests at 0?
Btw - for people to take you seriously in a balance topic - totally the wrong answer compadre. You have to at least try to pretend to be unbiased or at least try to self-reflect and take your own bias into account when making balance suggestions. Rovert, Howthe?, Sel, myself - none think this is a good idea. Zombie thought it would be "fun" so at least you've got that going for you.
I'm probably the least biased/most neutral as I play almost exclusively Advent and my 2nd choice is TEC.
It would be fun... But I meant as a mod, sorta like playing some of the custom maps dirty sanchez puts up. They never stick, but it's fun to try something new for kicks.
The simple fact is the developers will never make Advent or TEC star bases move. There is absolutely no case you can make that will change this.
Yep, if you read I also say his starbases thwart the rush. The reason is WHY do they do that? Because they can move. he does get twice the feed, so yes that helps as well. The point being is that with feed he can not only recover, but make himself invulnerable to assault for a very long time. Because his starbase can move.
lol your right about it not being Sel! So used to his blue/greenish picture I didn't even read the name.
Coronalfire still hasn't gotten a solid reply from you on his point, which makes your position all the weaker.
You shouldn't think that putting words in his mouth is an effective strategy, as he can just say "nay, i didn't think that" and just debase your other position. Yet i'm sorry for giving you unsolicited advice that could help you look less foolish. Yet you focusing on the "easy" aspect of the counter means that you really missed the entire point of his post, which was totally throwing some light on the biggest hole in your position.
Thanks for the compliment
I fail to see how that compliment is connected to those previous quotations however, because you do a poor job of communicating your point.
More lack of communication, but its okay because you find it funny.
Nothing trollish about providing a serious suggestion to the devs about how to add in another synergy aspect to the game.
Also, we've been over the bit where orkulus starbases are a bit too strong already. I chock this up as yet another failure in reading comprehension, because I agree with you in my above post on this issue after all...
You might think the idea of all factions' SBs going mobile as "fun" and yes it probably would be for a mod, but it would introduce more balance problems than it would solve and is a terrible way to go about what could be solved instead with small nerfs.
Not having all starbases mobile created balance issues in this game. This could be accomplished with small nerfs, yet at the same time, its going to only weaken the fun of players who enjoy using those strategies. Notice the pattern in rebellion? Cool things are getting nerfed so that they aren't nearly as viable. The devs have been using the big nerf bat instead of the subtle nerf rapier. Its killing the strategy diversity that rebellion was supposed to deliver.
So you want more of this by saying, devs, nerf ! < Your idea
Instead you could have Devs, improve so nerf is not needed! <My idea
Its doable, its just that people need to think outside the box and realize that saying "nerf this!" isn't going to get the desired response from the devs.
Also, you are being very vague, while i'm being quite specific. It really doesn't do much to lend credibility to your position, and any dev reading this would know that you really don't know what you're talking about because your hiding behind a simple vague defense.
People who say they are unbaised are liars. Any position that is considered 'unbiased', even in the courtroom with all its protections, is a lie. Its human nature to be biased. So I'll not lie to you and tell you what you want to hear, you should instead ask the question "why do I want to hear that he's unbiased?". You're one of this morons in college who just ate everything your teacher told you yes?
Self reflection is something any reasonable person should do, and I did plenty of it during my submarine years. My bias is that I want a game with more paths to victory, and I want a game that is overall more fun. I've been quite clear on this. Oh, and i'd like to fix the issue of the advent vasari matchup, still the biggest imbalance in the game. I prefer to play advent because they are still underemployed in many ways, especially when i play as the loyalists. I get more out of the win you see, because I overcome the largest obstacles inherent in the game design, allowing for larger reward. It also keeps my skills sharp so that I don't have to play many games to stay up to speed.
least biased? What does that mean exactly? Can you describe to me what that is? What magnitude is your bias and how do you determine that it is the "least"?
More lame responses lacking in brainpower.
No shit sherlock, its the internet, on a videogame forum. Know the medium in which you communicate. I'm glad i'm helping you put 2 and 2 together. Watching you think is like watching slugs have sex, slow and messy.
The key word in this quote is the word "Opinion". You should learn to understand what that word means, as it would help you in understanding that opinions don't have to be taken as fact, and that everything on these forums is an opinion, that can be supported by facts. Yet it is still an opinion and yes, it must be treated as such. Its all in that word bro, do some research.
Vasari have weakest LF by a long shot...
Vasari have weakest Corvette by a long shot...
Vasari have weakest anti-SC ship by a fair amount...
Vasari have weakest HC by a fair amount....
Vasari have weakest LRF for fleet battles, and it's only better than LRMs at FFing when you get those high level PM upgrades...
They also are at a disadvantage early game when it comes to how many labs they need...culture at tier 3, trade at tier 4, and needing 2 labs for corvettes is a shitty deal...certainly far worse than what TEC and Advent have to deal with lab wise...
Forget about all the silly OP stuff they have late game....the only reason Vasari are even remotely competitive early game is because:
Reason 1 is obvious...their scouts can cheaply grab neutrals far away and cling on to them...
Reason 2 is not necessarily obvious, but I don't want to get too much off toipic so I'll simply say that Vasari have lots of fantastic cap leads and have a great set of tools with low level caps (basically, without ultimates)...
Reason 3 is really what is relevant here...Orkies are only tier 2, and migrators are a lot cheaper than SB constructors....while building the SB costs about the same for all 3 factions, it is significantly less risky for Vasari...because you can scuttle an orky while it's being built, a Vasari player can start construting the orky with virtually no risk...if it looks like it'll get wiped, they can scuttle it and recoup most of their loses...
That the SB can move makes it significantly harder to counter...it can chase bomber spamming ships, and it can go right for any structures independent of where they are built...essentially, no place at the planet is safe to build structures or hold a fleet because the Orky can always just move towards it...
Finally, the 1st weapon upgrade gets built insanely fast, and combined with repair aura it is incredibly difficult to break a low level orky with a small early game fleet...it is possible to counter but it is a pain and generally requires significant skill...
Its cheap....it's lame...and it's arguably OP...but it's also the only thing Vasari have going for them early game....grabbing neutrals is a complete crap shoot, meaning that the only dependable advantage the Vasari have early game other that the Orky is a good line of low level caps (an advantage that wanes as cap levels get higher)...I think many people posting in this thread are completely ignorant of just how utterly pathetic Vasari frigates are....Vasari need the Orky to stay competitive early game, and yet you Sareth want to remove the only advantage that they have...
Nerfing Orkies is the way to go, and for now I think the simplest and best solution is to make that 1st weapon upgrade take just as long as any other SB's 1st weapon upgrade...if that's not enough, I'd consider changing the gameplay modifier that determines the construction build rate of SBs in enemy gravity wells...
This suggestion to have all SBs move is just wrongheaded...it makes Vasari utterly pathetic early game, meaning the faction can only bank on its OP late game advantages...that is a horrible way to balance a game...this is the kind of suggestion I'd expect from a noob player who just doesn't know how to counter an Orky rush (btw, no offense to that noob since it's a cheap tactic that is hard to counter even for skilled players)...
But this suggestion is coming from a alleged "pro" player named Carpetbomb who's anti-Vasari bias is well known....to be honest Sareth, if I hadn't actually seen you play in games on ICO, I'd never guess you were skilled by some of the "balance" changes you suggest...if your suggestion was implemented, the Vasari would be absolutely hosed early game, and then we'd be stuck putting up with all the OP late game BS they give because if they survived to that point...well...fuck it, they deserve phase jumping SBs and all the other nonsense they have....
I respect many of your posts, and mainly your willingness to call shit like you see it and go toe to toe even with the devs...but lately Sareth all you've done is be an uber troll and an asshat...necro threads, general asshatry, and now serious trolling...I mean god damn son, 10 fucking pages? That's deserving of at least 5 gold troll medals...looks like Mecha found a replacement for troll king...
It would really be great if both of you would just discuss the balance issues instead of doing such while making unnecessary personal attacks against each other.
Oh but we are on topic, except that ekko doesn't really respond to any of my points and wants to start a fight.
I'm game, Its not like it hasn't happened already and its not like i'm going anywhere for the next few hours.
@ Sel, first, good analysis up until this quote, its not like i disagree.
Vasari frigates are great, its just that the vasari players don't need to rely on early game fleets because they can build an orkulus any time they want. Orkulus is a safe bet, while fleet vs. fleet is not. Vasari don't get overrun that easily, and with turrets/heals they can tear into a disciple/corvette spam...
But the vasari players don't need to do that, because 1 orkulus is all they need to defend...
Please tell my why they would be, its kinda the purpose of this thread. You know, bounce feedback off of others, but most idiots don't understand the game and have little attitudes. So I treat em like the idiots they have already shown themselves to be, and get my kicks poking them with a stick.
Their early game survival is "build orky + phase jump inhibitors". Its really easy. They don't deserve their cool stuff because they don't fight hard to get through the game.
Also, I can kick your pansy ass any day of the week sel, so drop this "alleged pro" line...lol.
A little known fact: I enjoy playing the TEC the most for their versatility and because they can nuke the fuck out of the orkulus.
Really, vasari wouldn't be able to assault early on easily, yet they could defend to survive until the late game where their nasty business can be deployed in full array. I fail to see any real merit at all in your thinking, it reads more like "I can't get out of my own little box, so stop making me think outside of it!". Also, early starbase rush would be more easily countered (and therefore become less of a cheap tactic) because building a starbase that can move (and therefore threaten a supporting fleet for said starbase) would be a better use of credits to spend on defense. So vasari attack would be weakened, yes. But they would be FAR from pathetic, because of their "impending doom" abilities. Also, vasari are really good at starbase assaults, where they advance under the guise of fast building starbases in your gravity well with overseer support.... They won't be gimped at all.
Also, they can get to choke points and secure them REALLy fast. This is a big advantage, that still won't be diminished...so vasari early game will be lightly impacted on their cheap HW rush ability, yet almost nowhere else significantly.
Leave it to sel to try to be a dick and still try to take the "high road". Lol!
Necroing threads can be good fun and also(I do it with style), some necro'd threads are actually worth reading. Its not like I necro'd the entire archive...Tempting, but no. That would be ass hattery by my own definition.
As far as troll posts, its a matter of definition. I'd say your idea of what a troll is is convoluted at most times sel, and you consider yourself not a troll, yet you can be.
Have you read those 10 pages? I may go off topic for a few posts, yet I always come back to the discussion at hand and get more good discussion going. Its more a testament at my skill to kick the trolls in their troll mouths then anything trollish myself. After all, its only one well known thread, you know what it's all about, so you don't have to look. But you do, because its damned interesting to see someone taking a stand and doing it the right way. Sure it doesn't always look pretty and smell like roses, but then nothing worth doing is ever easy. This thread has been a great experience and has improved my typing speed. It's also proven to me that there really isn't any solid reason why this isn't a good idea, except that the developers haven't implemented it... So what? Its a creative discussion, it doesn't HAVE to be implemented, lol! I'm trying to determine how to manage these discussions for when I set up my own game forum. I don't want to have to hire some bitch PR guy to do it for me!
Sareth, there is very little worth responding to in your replies. I'd noticed how hostile you were to anyone disagreeing with your idea in the thread so far and you didn't disappoint when I disagreed as well. Your replies to many of the valid points people bring up are basically "No, you!" (eg. look at your reply to Sel's points about Vasari frigates and Vasari weaknesses that help explain why they have a stronger/different SB).
I find it amusing that you think your approach and attitude in this thread will help you in moderating some future game forum you are planning. You might want to revisit some of that self-reflection stuff you said you were capable of so you don't come off so asinine and hostile in the future. You're really just shooting yourself in the foot and not accomplishing anything here other than venting your pent up nerd rage. You need to learn that people disagreeing with your ideas are not actually personally attacking you so you don't need to go into hyper-defensive mode. It's something that will hopefully come with maturity.
Point 1:
CAN WE REACH 11 PAGES OF TROLLERY??????
Point 2:
Quoting sareth01, reply 249you consider yourself not a troll, yet you can be.
I've admitted to being a troll multiple times...
Point 3:
Quoting Ekko_Tek, reply 250Sareth, there is very little worth responding to in your replies.
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