[DISCLAIMER: all suggested modifications to abilities and stats are meant as a proof of concept- the numbers aren't final and are only included to give a rough estimate of the changes- please focus any feedback on the ideas behind the changes rather then only on whether the current numbers are balanced(though numbers feedback is also useful)]
General Analysis of the Role of Battleships
It's well known that 2 of the games three battleships are rather sub-par. Battleships as a whole have been designed to be "pure-combat" ships with less in the way of utility/late game fleet support then most other capitalships, but contribute more in the way of firepower then, for example a colony or support capitalship.
This really should mean the battleships should excel in the early game, when the added firepower of one combat-focus ship to a small fleet makes a larger difference to your total fleet potency then fleet-support skills which scale better into the late game when most of a fleet's firepower comes from it's large complement of frigates.
The problem is of course that it's hard to justify battleships as a means of boltering early firepower when frankly for the advent & TEC carriers posses superior firepower at a greater range with more flexibility(fighters for anti-light damage, bombers for anti-module). I will discuss the firepower of battleships relative to carriers more thoroughly in the next section.
Firepower of Battleships and Carriers Contrasted
The core of this problem lies in the fact that carriers start with 3 extra squads of strikecraft, and by level 10 have 6 more squads then a battleship. By contrast the radiance's weapons exceed the DPS of the weapons of the Halcyon by about 20 DPS at level 1, and somethign around 38-40 extra damage at level 10.
3/6 squads of fighters have roughly 12*3/12*6=36/72 DPS(=48/96 damage against light armor, 18/26 against most other armor types) 3/6 squads of bombers have about 17*3/17*16=51/102 DPS(which is 33/66 DPS against capitalships, 51/102 DPS against heavy cruisers, & 25/50 against most other ships).
There's something to be said about the battleship damage being dependable whereas strikecraft squads can be damaged and destroyed to be sure. But IMO that is more then made up for by the fact that strikecraft have an enormous range advantage and can focus fire(whereas the battleships divide their DPS between banks targeting separate enemies).
The point is even before abilities come into play carriers have a firepower advantage on the battleship- this is not the only issue of course(radiance & Kol have ship specific issues as well unrelated to their battleship status).
Consequently I believe the less powerful battleships could be remedied by improving their firepower. I think the best way to do so is by buffing seperate abilities to improve firepower in ways focused on different types of enemies- that way the player can specialize the firepower of their battleship to meet the situation much as a carrier can be loaded with fighters or bombers to meet the situation(though since skills learned are permanent and can't be swapped like strikecraft the skills shouldn't be too specifically focused).
So What Makes a Battleship "Work"?:
So far the two battleships which are actually viable are the kortul and the discord(we'll see when the vasari are in whether their new battleship is any good). I'll focus mostly upon the Kortul as it fills a more traditional battleship role then the discord(which is as much a support debuff boat as a battleship despite the name).
So what traits do these ships have that the radiance & Kol lack? Well both despite being strong early game combatants with good offensive firepower abilities also have some degree of late game utility(jam weapons & AM draining attacks for kortul, Armor reduction & Lethargy for the Discord)- this is primarily an area which the Kol falls short(radiance has DA).
That said, the biggest area the Kortul excels where the other battleships fail is in it's high sustained firepower and durability via Power Surge. Power Surge allows the Kortul to match if not exceed the firepower of a carrier, and become fairly durable it's self making it a very potent addition to early game fleets which are small enough that capital-ship firepower is a large portion of total fleet firepower.
Honestly I think the biggest problem with the radiance and Kol is just that- they can't compete with carriers in terms of early game firepower. Specifically the radiance lacks the tools(only one basic ability deals damage and the damage isn't really the focus of that ability) and the Kol has the tools(Gauss Railgun can put out some serious damage if spammed) but lacks the AM to keep up with it's ability's AM demands. That said, being that the biggest flaw in radiance specifically has always been early firepower(even in diplomacy) I can't understand why DA dmg/sec was heavily nerfed in rebellion. Seriously it went from 16.67/26.67/33.33 DPS in diplomacy to 12/14.9/17.8/20.7 DPS in rebellion.
The last part of the equation is durability- the Kol has this in spades(it mostly lacks in the previous areas). The radiance however doesn't. EAA is definitely the world of the 4 battleship "survival mechanism" even considering it is passive(this is in large part due to the fact that advent fleet synergy being what it is, by the time a capitalship is taking hull damage it's already in dire straights). That said, personally I think any deficits in survivability are far less important then the lack of early game firepower.
Ship Specific Discussions:
The Kol:
The Kol's biggest problem is and always has been that it has 3 active abilities, two of which have short cooldowns and are primarily meant to just deal damage(which means to really boost Kol's sustained damage output they need to be spammed). The Kol's AM simply can't keep up. Flak burst is particularly an AM hog.
Another more specific issue is that Flak Burst is unreliable unlike other Anti-SC ablities doesn't "buy time". If flak burst doesn't actually kill any squads(as it often won't in it's first shot) your ships are going to take the full brunt of the bomber attack even after using flak burst(which has a very high AM bost btw). Moreover the effectiveness of Flak burst varies drastically based o who your opponent is- Vasari bombers have roughly twice the hull of advent bombers. this makes the ability difficult to balance as balancing it against the advent means leaving it useless against the vasari and balancing it against the vasari will make it too hard of a counter to advent SC. Flak burst needs something new- something that levels it's effect against all race's strikecraft so that it's effect can be balanced accounting for all races.
Because of these first two issues the first change I would propose is to make Flak Burst far stronger, but on a much longer cooldown(less of an AM burden & strong enough that the first casting has a quantifiable effect on the coming bomber swarm).
As many have suggested over the years, making Adaptive Forceshield Passive would help ease Kol's AM problems a bit(heck with it's duration it pretty much has 100% uptime already).
Gauss railgun I don't think needs any new effects, but could use a small AM cost reduction- It's post shield DPS is actually pretty comparable to that of the Jarrasul's Nano-dissembler(whic his IMO a good example of a sustained damage ability), but the AM cost per second of spamming Gauss railgun every 8 seconds is massively larger then keeping nano-disassembler running. If they AM costs were similar the two might be pretty comparable(-50% speed>-3/4/5/6 armor but Nanon dissaembler may be maintained on up to 3 targets).
SO I think my proposed changes would be something along the lines of:
Gauss Railgun: reduce AM costs by 5 or 10 at all ranks
[comments: nothing fancy here, just a modest AM cost reduction ]
Flak Burst: Increase cooldown to 25 seconds. Instead of dealing damage instantly destroys the 2/4/6/10 Nearest squads of enemy strikecraft and deals damage to each other strikecraft in the area equal to 30/40/50/60% of it's maximum hull points(damage still reduced by armor).
[comments: After a great deal of thinking the only real way to make Flak burst equally useful against all types of strikecraft I really felt went with the theme of the ability was damage based on target health. This also prevents later game strikecraft with hull upgrade research from becoming super resistant to flak burst. The 2/4/6/10 squads instantly destroyed means flak burst WILL always reduce the impact of the approaching bomber swarm it is used to counter. Moreover I think it's fair as even at max rank it essentially destroys a squad every 3 seconds on average- which isn't all that far off the rate carrier capitalships produce strikecraft for no AM. Also for those leary of '% of max hull' damage, vasari bombers top out at what? 175*ish* health? the ability would in that case cap out at 105 damage against the beefiest strikecraft(so about 1.5x current effect, less against frailer ships)]
Adaptive Forceshield(passive): Reduces all damage dealt to the Kol by 10/15/20/25% and grants it 14/21/28/35% phase missile block.
[comments: a little bit weaker then the current effect, but up 100% of the time with no AM cost. it's WAY better then the radiance's EAA at the very least. ]
Altenative Adaptive Forceshield(passive): Increases shield mitigation by 4/6/8/10% and 4/21/28/35%
[comments: This one would in general be slightly stronger then the first damage against damage that doesn't bypass shield mitigation, but would be a bit vulnerable to effects that do(with the phase missile block this mainly means it would be weaker to abilities that bypass shields). That said this one also has the advantage of being very simple. ]
Base Stats: Increase the damage of the kol's autocannons a bit- nothing huge, maybe a 10-15% boost
[comments: The greater spammability of Gauss should give the kol some anti-capital ship DPS, this change would give it a bit more anti-frigate firepower- they would also make the splash damage from it's ult a bit stronger]
These changes would IMO fix the Kol's problems. It's AM supplies would actually be able to keep up with it's ability use, It would have more sustained firepower in general(possibly rivaling that of a carrier), and to top it all off it would actually have a strong and more importantly reliable anti-SC ability(actually probably the strongest early-mid game due the the relatively smaller numbers of strikecraft present)
The Radiance:
The Radiance is a bit more complicated. It doesn't even really have the tools at present to compete with a carrier in offense. It's clearly meant to be a pseudo-tank w/ animosity/EAA, but frankly no capitalship can really tank late game so past the early game the Radiance can't really perform this purpose.
That said Radiance can already be useful late game just via DA & cleansing brilliance, so I will focus primarily on buffing the radiance's early game.
First off, boost DA damage. There was no reason this should have been nerfed in rebellion(Radiance was already UP because of lack of earlygame firepower in diplomacy, so why nerf the damage of it's highest priority skill to level up?). That said I would primarily like to buff the lower ranks of it's damage output to target the early game, so perhaps have the dmg/sec be constant at all ranks(after all the total damage per cast already scales up with rank via the duration increasing and getting closer to the cooldown).
I know many people's reaction may be "DA is already great, why buff it?" simple, DA is good enough that it will generally be skilled first meaning any buffs to other skills past rank1-2 don't really see play in the early game...you can only really buff the early game by buffing abilities people actually have points in early game. Buffing DA is practical for this reason(and frankly it's mostly just rolling back an unnecessary nerf to an already UP ship)
Honestly buffing DA's damage could probably give the radiance plenty of anti-capital ship firepower, so next I will focus upon giving it some anti-frigate firepower. The best candidate for this feels like animosity as that ability is already tailored toward wading into a mass of frigates. So perhaps add a secondary effect that improves Radiance's ability to engage multiple enemies.
Granting a bit of extra survivability to EAA may be nice as well(for the taunting battleship it's a bit odd that radiance is by far the squishiest battleship), but is less important then other changes.
Anyway without more ado my propositions would be:
Detonate Antimatter: increase dmg/sec to 25 at all ranks.
[comments: total damage per 20 seconds in trinity: 200/400/600 With my changes total damage per 20 seconds would be: 300/390/480/570 . Still slightly lower at rank 4 then trinity rank 3, but stronger at lower ranks(not to mention it's still better overall at rank 4 as it has an extra 3 seconds of duration compared to trinity rank 3). I think this would be a reasonable way to give the Radiance much needed single target firepower(and frankly being that the damage didn't overpower radiance in trinity this should be fine as well). ]
Animosity: additionally for the duration of animosity Radiance's weapons banks may attack one additional enemy and have their rate of fire increased by -15/0/15/30%
[comments: I know this sounds big: consider the following though: Kortul's 'Power Surge' essentially improves weapons damage output by 25/50/75% and is up 67/71/75% of the time(I don't know the rebellion values). Meaning it cast every cooldown it is roughly a 16.3/35.5/56.2%. By contrast Animosity is up at most 20/35=about 57.1% of the time. With my proposition animosity would constitute a 33.5/57.1/80.7/104.2% increase in weapons damage, but divided among twice as many targets(and dependant on having that many targets to reach it's full potential). The slightly higher damage boost is compensated by the reduced focusfire. As for the other effects: considering Power surge has a better uptime compared to it's cooldown I think it's shield regen is about as useful as animosity's default effect. Also this would make animosity into a great visual lightshow in large battles . Also I realize the rank 1 reduces weapon fire rate seems weird. I initially had it at +0/10/20/30%, but wasn't satisfied with the distribution of bonuses as compared with 'Power Surge']
Base Stats: Shift some of Radiance's base shield points and shield points per level into hull and hull per level so that a larger percentage of it's health is in the form of hull.
[comments: Making more of radiance's health come from hull instead of shields relative to the other advent capitalships would be an easy way to buff EAA without adding anything more complicated to that ability. Moreover Advent capitalships are renowned for squishyness due to their low hull points- having their capitalship that is intended to serve as a pseudo tank eb the only exception to this rule would make the ship very unique in the Advent arsenal(possibly a good choice for combating vasari Evacuators/phase missiles? ]
Conclusion:
Well a discussion of battleships, what makes a battleship "good" and what can be done for the ships of this class which are subpar has been bouncing around in my head for the last few weeks. Sorry if it is a bit of a rant, I tried to structure my thoughts as best I could at a moments notice(though I'll likely be editing this post over the course of the night).
Anyway any discussion on battleships, the general problems with the radiance/Kol, feedback to my proposed changes, or ideas of your own are welcome. Honestly I think the first step towards balancing the underpowered battleships is figuring out exactly what role battleships as an archtype should play in game strategy. I'm sure there's some controversy on the specifics of these issues, so let's hear some opinions!
It does not NEED a damage ability, as its flak is really good and Finest Hour gives the Kol a +75(?) damage boost to all weapons banks.
That is all dependent on if you can get the KOL to lvl 6. keep the abilities, but change them slightly.
The Kortul's ultimate is not Nano Disassembler (that ability is on the Jarassul Evacuator), but rather is Volatile Nanites which causes all afflicted ships to receive bonus damage (IIRC, +30%) and to explode violently upon death, dealing 150 damage to nearby ships. As a result, this is more of a support ability than anything else.
As Mayall was saying, Finest Hour actually does cause the Kol to deal more damage, though it is in the form of splash damage.
Finest Hour is such a good ultimate.
Thanks for correcting, sorry forgot the name of it. Using finest hour is all dependent on if you can get it to level 6. It also cost a lot of antimatter 150 I believe.
It does cost alot but it also gives you an Antimatter Regeneration steroid.
Though the cost may be high, the ability's AM regen is such that you will regenerate 300 during the duration, netting a +150 IIRC, meaning that it's always good to use in combat. Hull Regen+AM Regen+Splash Damage.
Which compliments GRG and FB. They kind of go hand in hand.
It can get higher than that. The shield mitigation tech has two levels so thats 6% culture, 4% research, and the loyalists get an extra +2% from ancient retribution. Ironically though lowering shield mitigation has a bigger effect in total damage terms the higher it is, another reason why you need to be careful with it.
Tanking would be possible in Sins if they gave adaptive forcefield (though if the Kol isn't dangerous why blow it up first) and animosity sufficiently high defensive buffs.
Finest Hour and Flux Field are the main reasons I've been hesitant because they can drastically increase the spamminess of FB and GRG. It just seems like it doesn't do a whole lot to aid it's fleet.
GRG may deal a "lot" of damage, but after mitigation, it's really not that much. The only time it deals it's full power is against structures and Pirates, yet it has an engine disruption ability. IMO, this isn't enough flexibility to be universally useful (like POH for instance which is incredibly flexible and thus useful). More importantly though, it doesn't help it's fleet much. Structures pop soon enough, and compared to Gravity Bomb or Ion Bolt, it doesn't seem to do a whole lot. It seems like they tried to mix those abilities with GRG and just ended up with a weird ability that doesn't do a whole lot which is why I support a shield mitigation debuff as it gives the Kol it's first ability that actually helps it's surrounding fleet.
FB may deal a ton of damage, but it can't even kill Advent Fighters, let alone Vasari Bombers, so bomber spam will still hit home on the first pass, compared to TKP which deals damage and nullifies the pass and JW which allows the Vasari to just ignore Bombers for the duration.
Well Gauss being single target wont actually be able to be universally useful. I say just give it some form of better utility than its slow, for example perhaps with the slow it could also steal antimatter from its target. Or it could maybe be a single target version of Mass Disorientation it would be able to disable channeled abilities.
Well lets see, in Rebellion GRG does 400/670/940/1210 every 6 seconds. That's 67/112/157/202 DPS, or roughly adding 3.5/5.5/8/10 Kodiak heavy cruisers worth in firepower. Even with mitigation the DPS isn't bad, its the fact that it can't sustain it for very long. Even in max culture it really does need flux field to reach its full potential.
I keep getting ninja'd lately...
156% via culture, 2% via shield research tree, so 8% (plus anything we don't know about). A level 10 capital will have 65+1.1*lvl, so at level 10, you'd have 84%. I was asking if there were any other things in Rebellion that were added that would augment what existed in Trinity.
It can get higher than that. The shield mitigation tech has two levels so thats 6% culture, 4% research, and the loyalists get an extra +2% from ancient retribution. Ironically though lowering shield mitigation has a bigger effect in total damage terms the higher it is, another reason why you need to be careful with it.Quoting MayallCommunion, reply 24
Also that is kind of my point, tanking belongs in WoW.
So a maximum for Rebels would be 86.1% while the Loyalists would have 88.1%
Perhaps then a better buff would be 6%/8%/10%/12% then. While it is certainly capable of doubling damage dealt to Advent Loyalists, it is unlikely under most circumstances that all those bonuses would be in place. If that's still too high, perhaps a shift to 6%/7.5%/9%/10.5% would be better. Anything lower and it won't have much effect under ordinary circumstances with Advent or against Vasari period.
GRG after mitigation only deals 80.8 DPS under ideal circumstances and 24 DPS under the worst case, of course calling it DPS isn't even applicable unless Flux Field is in play. Designate Target+GRG+Flux Field is arguably the best synergy the TEC have, allowing the Kol to wreak uncontrollable havoc on the enemy fleet. The only problem is that it relies on the level 6 ability of a support capital that can't heal itself, so the odds of it happening are low.
I'm with Goa on this one- examining the skill only in terms of final post mitigation DPS is IMO a deceptive abstraction- Yes it's true but it focuses the reader on a number that "sounds" small. But frankly when it comes down to it Goa's example of the DPS being around the same as 10 HC(or for that matter 14 LRF)- and frankly I think we can all agree 10 HC/14 LRF is a potent firepower addition to any early-mid game fleet. Moreover the lowest side of the spectrum you gave(24) is only really likely to occur against late game advent(who have the most mitigation)- and even if GRG is less effective against them Flak burst is more effective in it's current implementation against advent SC. Not to mention most of the early-mid game game I bet you could rely on ~53 DPS against TEC/Vasari capitalships(65% shield mitigation & 25% reduction in ability dmg to cap ships) and come the mid game ~35 DPS vs advent(same as the others but also have guardian shield projection)
Considering other anti capships damage abilities like nano-dissasembler deal something along the lines of ~18.75/12.5 DPS, and the Marza's Incendiary rounds can manage about 27/18 DPS, 53/35 DPS after mitigation sounds pretty good to me. The chief differance & consequently difference is that the Kol can't spam GRG for long without running it's self out of AM.
Moreover you acknowledge Designate Target+GRG+Flux Field is a strong combo- so wouldn't designate target+GRG be strong in general if it were a bit more spammable(which is to say the AM constraints laxened a bit)?
Besides there's also the caveat that the first shot of GRG against a ship that has previously not yet build up shield mitigation can do extremely large amounts of damage. Not a huge swing to be sure, but extra damage with intelligent use of the skill is always welcome.
I honestly am fine the the high AM cost of GRG because it means that you can't spam it until you meet a Dunov. Maybe that's just me, but that's my view of it so I'm trying to figure out a buff in some other way. The Kol can absolutely nuke other capitals when given access to the more-or-less unlimited AM Flux Field offers
Yeah, well with a six second cooldown its going to run out of antimatter without a Dunov and culture/finest hour no matter what realistic number it has. Reducing it a little bit just allows it to be used a couple more times.
If you really want to let the Kol snipe other capitalships, you don't need to mess with shield mitigation. Just make it do damage directly to the hull (which makes a bit more sense for a railgun anyways). By the time conventional weapon break the shields the target will have substantial hull damage already, making it easier to finish off and giving your opponent less time to retreat it.
Kol + corsev + dunov is a nice combo, as long as your corsev is lvl 6..honestly i'd like to see if this could take out a lvl 5 titan.
I don't want it's default job to be sniping, I just want it to be able to help out it's fleet in some other way than killing SC because currently it has none. Marking a capital for death would help the fleet as a whole and justify the construction of Kols for something other than anti-SC.
i like it very cool idea, this would also help out the revelation with you be able to lure away the damage so it can keep locking important targets down with out having to move out of its leash range
Interesting at least.. I would think you'd want to make a mini-repulse effect though on any ships within 1000 of the Radiance so that it can have breathing room to move without having to weave through things. It ought to be able to affect anything up to a Titan which the Radiance should go around.
Idk if I'm a fan of it yet, but it would be interesting. If nothing else, by darting around, the Radiance could reduce the damage it actually takes and could lead to enemy ships having to rotate after the end of the buff. Combined with Repulse, you could further disorient the enemy fleet.
One thing though, if you double the linear speed/acceleration of it, you'd probably have to triple angular speed/acceleration or the Radiance would make such wide turns that it wouldn't be terribly effective.
Idk if I like it yet, but it does intrigue me...
EDIT: if you really wanted to take this idea and run with it, you may want Animosity to also reduce range of afflicted ships, meaning that they'd have to actually move out of formation, further reducing their ability following the buff to return to active duty. This change may be unnecessary, but it might allow the Radiance to not get slaughtered by any units with long ranges (and thus large firing areas and thus have more time to turn).
What do you mean? I'm not really seeing how this would help the Revelation any...
I like this actually. Not to mention how much fun it would be to troll people with it .
I'm no programmer. I'm just throwing this idea out there as a way to improve the usefulness of the radiance outside of cleansing.
Volt, don't capital ships already sorta shove stuff out of the way? I've done this before and three radiances going through a fleet about a ship length apart just shove frigates aside like they're paper wads. (As an added bonus two radiances very close will push the ships between them together. They take forever to get unsnarled.(Works even better on those idiotic AI's)) If you did a repulse effect wouldn't it also shove aside other capitals?(unfair) and what about fighters? Though that might be a good idea just to increase the radiance's staying power.
And yes, moving fast is very very effective at avoiding damage. I once modified the movement files to the maelstrom mod. I increased movement speed of those fk*** slow dreadnoughts by 3.5x to make it go as fast as a regular cap. They became utterly invincible since i could circle enemy fleets faster than their capitals could turn. I was getting about a 4 to one ratio against equivalent fleets if i had dreadnoughts running interference.
I didn't know the revelation could really do much good locking down stuff. It is totally subservient to Subjugators in that regard.
And what good do Revelation Battle-cruisers do other than safely scout?
the range nerf is unnecessary. There comes a point where brilliant ideas must be stopped from becoming too brilliant. If the ranges were reduced, can you imagine the chaos of all 50 kodiaks in a fleet turning around and barreling through an already disrupted fleet? Totally unfair, and LRF's do not really have the firepower to slaughter caps effectively after all the nerfing was done in diplomacy.
It's not an issue with programming. I could set up a buff chain for this in a few minutes. No, what I meant was that while sometimes they do throw things out of their way, other times, they sit and try to find a way out so they have to slowly nudge their way out of their fleet. The repulsive effect would have to impact your own ships or your Radiance might not get a chance to distract as it might just get caught up by it's own fleet.
Even if it had a repulsive effect of 1000, that wouldn't impact bombers as all SC have a range of 2400 which would be far too much for something that's sole purpose is to make sure that the Radiance doesn't get snagged somewhere.
EDIT: I understand what you mean regarding the range debuff. I was just suggesting that it might be necessary if the other things weren't enough.
Well that's exactly what reducing mitigation does. Sure the killing blow may come from another ship but you are still making a single target vulnerable to be killed. Quickly killing off other capitalships is a great help to a fleet, and I don't really see how you can give the battleships any other role without replacing some of their current abilities for new ones.
Doesn't that defeat the entire point of animosity tanking? The enemy ships still fire while they're turning to engage the Radiance. It will certainly disorient the enemy, but I guess I would like to see the Radiance get actual tanking power to help out in a battleball rather than some weird running circles around the enemy thing.
That said, one of Darvin's old suggestion was to boost battleship speed across the board so they could better pursue kitting carriers and escape when they got in trouble, since unlike other capitalships they have to stay fairly close to the action.
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