First our assumptions:
Let us assume that many of the fundamentals of the game will not really change, and that the developers will add only minor tweaks to the actual combat in rebellion. This is a relatively safe assumption to make since the amount of perceived fear of the developers to not screw up their product is most likely due to the financial pressure stardock is under(which will therefore influence the developer and change the relationship). Any project that uses fear as a rationale for limiting design decisions in the end will fail, or become severely debilitated. Once the fear pervades the leadership it is felt throughout the company and the culture changes. This ensures the failure because the culture that was designed to kick butt has now been disrupted and infiltrated by fear. This happens in anything undertaken by man and is in no way limited to the gaming industry.
Case and point, we all know elemental bit the dust. I know it costs $$$ to build brand and at least stardock is willing to actually compensate their buyers in an attempt to maintain a brand that is trying to become blizzard-esque. The people who pressured the stardock leadership to release the game early really deserve some training at how to make good decisions. Good decision : lets release it when its ready so as to get a triple AAA audience because we made a AAA game, and we did so using less of a budget then a AAA title ought to cost.
Sins is a good example of how stardock and ironclad rock.
Bad decision: we have pressures that mean that we need to steal from one game to promote another failing game because we released it too early.
I don't know what business school your leaders went to(if at all), but when a product doesn't make money for itself, you cut it. If you have emotional ties to that product, you should have given it the life it deserves ahead of time with effective pre planning. I know pre planning is hard to justify to investors, but i know beyond a shadow of a doubt that sins had much more pre planning then elemental did.
I am amazed that you wish to revive the baby, and quite honestly I hope to be amazed by fallen enchantress and I hope to regain faith in stardock's brand.
So how does elemental biting the dust mean that the vasari will be overpowered?
Because of the underlying design strategy that surrounds the three races. When decisions are made by the development team to enhance the races they will be using their "safe" view of the three races to ensure more of the same sort of strategy that each race employs because the design team has lost their confidence and therefore will rely on their old, albiet outdated ideas. These ideas were fine when the game was first deisgned, but they are in fact stale as players have already played the crap out of those ideas and have come to a conclusion on what works and what doesn't all by themselves. To rely on the old mindset, although it is safe and fear driven, is to provide a less effective gaming experience because the design itself will be inherently outdated. Not outdated when relative to other games in the industry which sins competes, but outdated when compared to itself and where the community is. So in essence, regressing the game will hurt the stardock brand, and yes, games can be regressed even with the addition of new content.
The vasari will continue to recieve the best "cheap tactic" ideas, quite evident in the release of the news about the vasari titan. Having a mobile homeworld to me, considering all the advantages this race already possesses, is to me the end of long term sins online games. Not to mention this will yet again render the advent "super ability" meaningless, the TEC turtling ineffective and It is painful to see the game design philosophy being altered to be centered around titans. This advantage outstripped even my imaginings of how to insanely overpower the vasari by an incredible margin, and in fact is the single worst design decision for maintaining any semblance of balance. Is it really cool? yes. Do the vasari already have really cool stuff? yes. Do other races need Really cool stuff? FUCK YES. Why is it that one thing always gets a really cool designer?
I am reminded by the druids in world of warcraft, where they are meant to appeal to hardcore gamers because they can do anything in the game quite well. Druids in wow are akin to the vasari in sins from a psychological appeal standpoint. they appeal to players who like strategically superior and inherently overpowered tactics when combined. the thing is, sins multiplayer is all hardcore gamers. to appeal to hardcore gamers with one race is to INHERENTLY overpower them. All races must cater to the hardcore gamers, because sins should be made into an E sport similar to starcraft and an E sport is where the money is. High balance is what makes starcraft competative, makes it relevant. Sins developers are more ambitious then blizzard by far, because they attempt to add a high strategy element that is VERY VERY difficult to balance. To make sins an E sport similar to starcraft would be a disaster because sins is so much more like chess. Sins would be popular among a smaller group of higher brow individuals, but it would still be immensely popular.
So lets expand on the existing vasari advantages and acknowledging how they most likely will not change, we shall see a troubling one sided play emerge.
Vasari turtle the best of any race by FAR. phasic trap, mobile starbases, mobile mine layers that actually are effective, shield piercing bomber spam... just listing the early/mid game advantages. With even a small amount of luck the vasari will have a strong enough economy to overcome their initial weaknesses as a race. IMO, vasari should be less of an early attack race and more of a turtling race...being able to do both exceptionally well with very high probability in variable ratio is the reason why you see vasari so consistently the race of choice in current games.
So, you add these advantages up.
Vasari players will be able to fight with the strongest fleet, and have a mobile homeworld on top of their highly effective and cheap mobile starbases, all the while warping around the galaxy and defending for a moment and then attacking the next moment. No other race will have a chance unless they are significantly overhauled, which I foresee not being the case due to probable changes in the work culture at stardock, which will then influence ironclad in a negative fashion and change the relationship based upon new pressures. This will inevitably change the game.
Rebellion will not be the answer to all of our problems, but I will buy multiple copies of it just as i have bought 4 copies of trinity, because I believe in stardock and ironclad and the brand that is being built. So if you want to flame this go ahead, it doesn't change the fact that I support the developers where it really matters. My long posts also serve to show that there are people who really give a crap about this game to any casual observer and add value and appeal to the stardock brand.
You don't have to like the devils advocate.
Oh and one last thing. I want to make it clear to all that I WANT stardock and Ironclad to prove me wrong on all the above analysis. Lets see if they can.
We'll be watching.
I'm more irritated that does not use all capital ships. And Vasari on large maps may be limited - to reduce loyalty to distant planets. They would have been nomads with high mobility and low level of "satisfaction" of the population (slaves, etc.). Reducing the economy will lead to a reduction of available troops. So this game will adjust to the large maps (Vasari phase stabilizers are still too big plus).
Меня больше раздражает что не используются все столичные корабли. А васари на больших картах можно ограничить - уменьшить лояльность на отдалённых планетах. Они будут и были кочевниками с высокой мобильностью и малым уровнем "довольства" населения (рабы и прочее). Уменьшение экономики приведёт к уменьшению доступных войск. Так что это отрегулирует игру на больших картах (фазовые стабилизаторы васари всё же слишком большой плюс).
I just realized I need to post more in russian.
Or as an option to reduce the maximum available number of ships. Vasari in a panic - remain too long in one place, and the threat from which they run closer. This complicates the maintenance of a large fleet. Growing discontent.
Или как вариант уменьшить количество максимально доступных кораблей. Васари в панике - слишком долго оставались на одном месте, и угроза от которой они бегут всё ближе. Это усложняет содержание большого флота. Недовольства растут.
Yes please do, as it will enhance how you are perceived by all as A) most don't give a crap what you write and with the added requirement of translation you will cease being for the purposes of this forum and B ) we won't have to let our curious eyes understand anything you do decide to waste our time with.
@ riddleking
great post dude, yet you fail to address any of the real problems with the guardians in your humor, showing your ignorance on how they are best used in combat.
Guardians being slow, not the reason i don't use them.
Guardian autocast not working fast enough, not the reason i don't use them.
Guardian abilities lacking effectiveness in combat - A reason I don't use guardians.
Guardians high initial cost making them more expensive then overseers to field - a reason i don't use guardians.
Guardians sucking up antimatter so fast as to render them useless after a few minutes of fighting- a reason I don't use guardians.
Guardians are good for turtling, but they gimp your attack substantially due to antimatter loss during jumps. Given advent eco sucks in many ways turtling isn't an option for their effective use in 5v5. The guardians aren't so weak when you have fully researched antimatter upgrades/diplomacy/artifacts and have researched the reduced antimatter cost of jumps. Too bad all that tech cuts into building more guardians and so facing any pressure you will have to choose one or the other. That is why you don't choose guardians at all, because in the end they don't give you the fleet support you need in enough numbers. Your credits are far better spent on scout/disc spam, even in late game as I have proven just recently.
Oh wait, but you must be a single player who comp stomps all the time, which in that case you should go back to your lil box and reign as king. Let the big boys talk about real strategy. "there there".
If you want to come to see how the pros play, come online and i'll train you. Just look at the replay if you have questions about why you lost, and I am also quite helpful at pointing out flaws in your tactics as well, and assisting you with general misconceptions about how the game should or shouldn't be played.
LOL, you people haven't even seen the Beta and you're already calling it unbalanced.
Yet they get so angry at me for speculating....
haha i'm having too much fun with this one
this is why oil speculators rule the world.
I know I'm putting my hand into a wasp hive in this heated thread.
But my understanding of Advent is that they benefit quite a lot of mixed ships (or at least it's how I play them) instead of spam one or two different kind of ships.
So using Guardians alone may not be sufficient in itself, as they are not meant to be, but together with Disciple Vessel and its 'Steal Antimatter' ability which can be researched at level 3 (same as Guardians), you can keep the Guardians running while sucking the enemies anti-matter reserves.
hehe my "difference of opinion" with mecha lenin goes back a while thalic. I haven't witnessed you spew massive amounts of irrational bile on the forums, so I like you.
I can tell you are a relatively new player based upon what you wrote, the devil is in the details. The advent fleet works effectively together when you have all the necessary components in the right proportion. Even so, it will get raped by an endgame vasari or TEC attrition fleet. The antimatter transfer ability of the disciples also works poorly, and considering the MASSIVE amount of micro required for the advent fleet, the extra micro required for antimatter transfer is less important. If you have guardians, micromanaging them to be effective takes a lot of time, and if you face an enemy who uses Z axis you realize how futile guardians are, as the added z axis control of guardians on top of all the other annoyingly tedious micromanagement of the advent fleet render the advent fleet synergy's moot. Its all about fleet positioning, and a smart player will NEVER directly engage a battle ball of equal forces on the advents terms, they just need to jump two times to destroy advent fleet cohesion and snipe it apart(if the advent fleet moves slowly to maintain cohesion the enemy, always moving faster, will just outflank the advent fleet and kill you that way). This makes endgame advent very poor at attack and defense(if you use guardians as the core of your fleet), as the way guardians are designed they are the core of the advent endgame fleet, yet they never have enough antimatter. Disciples are the most easily killed endgame Light Frigate, and when facing vasari they will die SCARY fast...50 + upgraded disciples will die to 30 fully upgraded kanraks so fast if you blink you might miss it. They die so fast that you need at least 5 factories on the next planet over just to keep them resupplied. The attrition is far less when facing the TEC, as shields actually work against them. They only look good on paper, advent in all reality are just a spam race in online pvp. If in the next patch the developers just added to the cost of disciples slightly and reduced the high shield HP of scouts a little bit, the advent would never get played online, period.
As an advent player, fleet synergy is a luxury I don't have time to dream about. I only have time to predict and limit your options, any time spent on teching up a dream fleet will just get me killed faster.
I wrote maybe 5 serious posts on this forum and this thread is by far not worth the 6th one.
Just general observation.. or maybe call it First Law of Sins MP:
Forum post amount and length is inversely proportial to MP skill level.
Hi everyone,
My name is Sareth01 aka jedi- the sweetest thing since candy. All my life i have tried to crawl out the noob basket and failed. My greatest triumph was when i started to call everyone else a noob to bring them down to my level. That my friend is what i call a pro . Its to focus all my indiscretions on everybody else around me and you people have to listen when i say the vasari are going to be over powered. You also have to listen when i say Lan players just comp stomp because in my experience lan players can't face each other. If they do and got really good at this game because of it then they must be cheating.
Let me set you all straight on something:
i have enough skill and money to last me a lifetime. Unless i buy something [e digicons][/e]
(hahaha!)
annnnd-- stupidity is not a handicap. So park elsewhere!
"hahaha- Oooooh -damn Sareth -good 1" (guardians laugh)
And screw anyone who thinks i should paragraph my posts more. As if there the grand masters of the english language! Noobs! You know sometimes i wonder whats up with u you lot'--
Im sorry sareth- I'd like to see things from your point of view but i can't seem to get my head that far up my ass." (hahahaha guardians roar lol)
[moderator] Please noobs and guardians shut up, you'll never be the man your mother is!!
hahahahahahaha!!!!!
Yet the equation is flawed because your forum posts are small and yet you still suck, at both the posts and online. Its good that you have overcome your insanity mecha lenin, you should have realized the first time you got your butt whipped on this thread that to attempt to use the same tactics would again realize another defeat. I accept your surrender.
As for that poorly written (note i'm not a bitch pointing out punctuation errors as those previously have) response by riddle king, i can't really see the humor in what you are writing, probably because you failed to be funny at all.
I don't see guardians sitting around in space laughing together, and that doesn't come remotely close to comedy, even nerd comedy. Any guardian pilot would happily join my fleet and cry if it had to join yours. As for being pro, I only denounced the hater noobs that thought they could gang up on me in this thread. Its okay, i'm stronger then all of you lil guys. Head pats all around, now go fetch the next ball i throw for you.
Good boys!
hihihi --------- sorry but you cant deny im funny
Just few facts about beta and vasari: its very unlikely they will be overpowering anyone!
For example: tec rebels Titan on level 10 with buff from frigates have damage of 1,2k + sniping of 7k damage per shot (charged) add to it some repair drones and its just moving gun which can take literally anything in just about seconds...for me to take maxed up TEC starbase takes 20 to max 40 sec without even loosing shield ( not to meantion....comming close to it is just fun ...u could just snipe it out in 4-5 min)
Tec loyalist turttle with 2 bases and upped titan (with its iplair and inspair active) .....try to penetrate it.....no way or only with maxed size and upgrade fleet if u are lucky.
Advent Rebels titans with its mass damage and abbility to consume its own ship....omg to kill it first u need too kill all around it and hope u will have something to fight with against it once no advent ships left (imho its race 100% bonus to shield regeneration make a task to penetrate its shield even kinda shady) and ye if its use its last abilitiy with 1500% regen for antimater and cooldown there is no way u will have any ships left after maxed up fleet fighting it.
Advent Loyalist are even worse they titans convert enemy ships and supress in the same time only way to fight it is with very small powerfull fleet .... but if he have some fleet around ....no way since he have just outstanding bonus... and its ability to convert planets instantly is awesome.
Just play beta and u will see there will be 6 races to play and at least 6 different game styles. Game will be much more balanced at lest its looks like from playing beta and reading about vasari on forums.
haha you ressurected my old pre beta thread to try to liven up the dead forums. This was mainly hype(hence the controversial title), because the forums were a ghost town.
This thread is irrelevant, a fancifully fun prediction to make, and attract the ire of a few people.
I have read that Vasari Loyalist is ready. Can you add it in the next beta release? So that we don't have to wait for the readiness of Vasari Rebel
lol хаха низнал тут на форумах русские есть... кроме (чувака с картинкой сабаки) я досих пор незнаю если он русский или просто тупит... блин зачем два раза он пмшет одно и тоже просто, по ангийски пиши и всё
And where did you read that?
+1
Both Vasari races are likely "ready" in the same sense as the other factions are "ready"; they're just not enabled. This is likely for two reasons:
A. Contrary to popular belief beta testing does actually require "testing", that's why it's not called Beta "get the game early super special hearts and rainbows" and the devs are currently focusing on testing the balance of the TEC vs. Advent.
B. Since so many people these days actually do for some reason believe that beta testing is actually Beta "get the game early super special hearts and rainbows" the devs want to roll out the features slowly as to not release an incomplete game ahead of schedule and have even more people whine about not liking X, Y, and Z.
Vasari very powerful?.... you can be very powerful with any race, you must know the ability and weakness of all races
I'd really appreciate some pointers in the game, and my son would too. Add us on steam. I'm Trinity (fyrstar2002) and he's Doggysammy (Fyrstar).
Indeed, i personally prefer the Advent. To me and my gameplay style, they are the ultimate force. I can steamrole the TEC and Vasari with an Advent fleet way easier than the other way around. But this is because of my gameplay style and knowing strengths and weaknesses. To carte blanche state that the vasari are move powerful than the other races is just wrong imo.
[e digicons]x_x[/e]
Nice pointless necro there Mew...
yeh mew. I ***** hate you
There are many great features available to you once you register, including:
Sign in or Create Account