We are the Demandobots [e digicons]:cylon:[/e] https://forums.elementalgame.com/404518/page/1/#2876891
It is our nature to relentlessly demand AI improvements.
Our programming has the following rules:
1. We demand specific improvements. Those making vague demands are not true demandobots! Elaborate to prove your worth!
2. We provide savegames by dropbox or similar technology to offer others a chance to share in the mockery of the puny AI's feeble attempts at gameplay. (And to help the devs)
3. We separate issues and requests into "Community confirmed", "Needs confirmation" and "Too vague, please elaborate".
4. Our programming is quite moddable, please make improvement suggestions if you feel like it.
And finally, Rule zero: We cheer AI improvements mightily.
STRATEGIC AI
Top priority:
Champion AI concidered lacking because of the following two issues.
HeavenFall, Vandenburg, Lord Xia, nitey47, AlLanMandragoran: AI won't equip new items. If they hire champions, they will never have better equipment than what they start with.
Stuie, Lord Xia: AI does not take stat upgrades at level-up https://forums.elementalgame.com/404479
AlLanMandragoran: AI gets "pop-locked" and doesn't do anything for many turns. https://forums.elementalgame.com/407995
Community confirmed:
AlLanMandragoran: Most recent strategic AI analysis thread: https://forums.elementalgame.com/407995
AlLanMandragoran: AI leaves settlements undefended. Also, has unused pioneers and is building more in the same location. https://forums.elementalgame.com/408391
AlLanMandragoran: AI building cities on top of resources. https://forums.elementalgame.com/408401
Vandenburg, nitey: Rushing military (techs) too powerful https://forums.elementalgame.com/403879/page/9/#2877482
Lord Xia: AI could group better, instead of two groups of 4 units coming after a city, and both failing, one group of 8 would have succeeded
Sethai: Teleport allows human players to concentrate their forces better than an AI. AI doesn't build groups or archers. their huge armies of individuals are destroyed by area spells. https://forums.elementalgame.com/407978/page/1/#2927950
Yosarian2: AI will consistantly declare war on me, and then completly ignore me and do nothing for dozens of turns. The AI just needs to learn to properly launch a single large attack on nearby cities it's at war with. https://forums.elementalgame.com/407978/get;2928071
Yosarian2: I often conquer cities that have the wrong buildings (for example, it'll build the buildings that give a % bonus to metal production in cities that have no metal production.) https://forums.elementalgame.com/407978/get;2928071
impinc, Tydorius: Poor maneuvering. AI always moves units in the same turn order every time. AI never uses the pass turn to just stand still, even if using its turns moves it backwards. https://forums.elementalgame.com/404507
HeavenFall, Lord Xia: AI uses mounts very, very rarely
TheProgress, kaitro AI does not defend improvement tiles.: The AI continues to rebuild improvements whilst enemies are right next to the improvement tile. https://forums.elementalgame.com/404551
TheProgress: The AI retreats (on the strategic map) when it has superiority in numbers and strength. Link to saves: http://filebin.ca/kpaeyt/Saves.zip
Blackmantle_: AI gives obscene amounts of Gildar for diplomatic capital during diplomatic negotiations (treaties part of the negotation-table) while giving the diplomatic capital away for cheap when bartering for goods. The richer the AI is, the worse the bug
HeavenFall, Sythion: AI attacks a city with 400 combat rating worth of units in, with an army that has 80 combat rating. AI tactics about when and where to fight are poor.
Blackmantle_, Sythion: AI seems to undervalue hiring heroes. Ridiculous AI may have thousands of gildar, but there are still heroes available in AI territory or just near it. AI needs to focus on champions early game, since they are much easier to purchase and buff up (only need gold)
nitey47, vallu751: Combat rating needs improvement. Is defensive armor given enough weight? Are magical effects values? Spellcasters?
nitey47, HeavenFall: AI creates too many monuments. 8 or 9 in a city, each taking 10 pop.
nitey47: AI build options could be better in general. Currently too many monuments and labor pits. Too few Studies and Schools.
Werewindlefr: AI does not build units with a shield and one handed weapon.
citywolfdreams: AI should keep low level heroes with fighting stacks, hanging out back to gain exp.
Needs confirmation:
EternalRequiem: AI doesn't cut down forests to make room for cities.
Vandenburg: AI doesn't phase out obsoleted units with better ones
Blackmantle_: AI gives more for a Hero on bartering than demanding for that same hero. Might be tied to recruit cost of the player as well as the AI and relations. So beeing a Bard with a high charisma might help to reproduce. The richer the AI is, the worse that bug
nitey: AI might do better against rushing if it researched an offensive spell right away
nitey: AI units should have better defense in the beginning, even normal peasants
Blackmantle_: AI doesn't seem able to keep watch of its heroes. They seem to die rather fast despite high difficulty HP bonuses
seanw3: I demand that the AI can logically research late game technologies (the ones that are infinite). I have not noticed a good use of this by the AI.
seanw3: I demand that the AI can cast spells. Even in 1.19 they seem to totally avoid magic.
seanw3: I demand that the AI can properly see that he is being beaten by my invincible armies and sign a peace treaty without demanding insane amounts of gold. Why is the winner supposed to pay for peace?
seanw3: I demand that the AI can raze a city if it is surrounded by too many units.
seanw3: I demand that the AI can ask me for help if it is losing a war and we are the same faction.
nitey47: AI does not use Imbue Hero, Arcane Weapon, Stone Skin, Regenerate or Heal on either their heroes or their sovereign. https://forums.elementalgame.com/404541/page/1/#2879022
nitey47: AI doesn't build archers after archery was moved up in tech tree.
seanw3: AI at a disadvantage at higher tech levels, doesn't seem to utilize them well
Savoy3: AI is not trying to trade with others to get for example metals. https://forums.elementalgame.com/408864
Too vague, please elaborate:
Vandenburg from demandobot thread: AI doesn't factor it in deciding for war (champion equipment or obsolete units? Both?)
TACTICAL AI
TheProgress, Sythion: The tactical AI will focus all units on attacking a single enemy unit until the battle has ended regardless of how the enemy changes position or attacks. https://forums.elementalgame.com/404639
vallu751, Sythion: AI rushes to attack without considering who gets to strike first. Easy to exploit for a great advantage.
citywolfdreams: List of AI improvement suggestions in thread https://forums.elementalgame.com/405229
NOTED IMPROVEMENTS
Fixes in 1.19:
nitey47: 1.19 beta: AI creating better units
Fixed by 1.19a that corrected a 1.19 problem with AI XML Tag usage:
Vandenburg, AlLanMandragoran: AI doesn't expand problem.
Trojasmic: How to beat 6 ridiculous AIs with saves and screenshots: https://forums.elementalgame.com/404770
Fixes in 1.19a:
AI: Fixed an issue with the sovereign not going out to pickup goodie huts.
Fixes in 1.19c:
AlLanMandragoran: Faction AI XML tags for factions other than Umber.
Fixes in 1.19d:
Patch notes: AI suicidal tendencies reduced
[e digicons]:cylon:[/e]
Yeah, Brad mentions it was fixed here:
https://forums.elementalgame.com/404770
They said it would be, but I can't verify that it has. Their word should be sufficient.
Edit: Beaten to the punch, with a source no less! My forum-fu is degrading.
Thank you both. I'll update the thread a bit later. On the road right now..
I performed an analysis of how the AI gears their sovereigns, spouses, and champions in 1.19a here:
https://forums.elementalgame.com/404914
Summary of Observations:
Recommendations:
LOL - I just noticed the 1 second difference.
Brad or Derek,
Can you please share the formula for how both faction power and unit/stack power is calculated? This could help the community understand how/why the AI is making decisions around going to war or deciding if battles are winnable. We might be able to help out here.
Thanks.
I'm starting a play by play analysis of a 1.19a ridiculous game here:
Seasons 1-20: https://forums.elementalgame.com/404927
Seasons 21-40: https://forums.elementalgame.com/404944
This is a work in progress until next patch where I'll then terminate and start over.
Brad - please take the time to read through these. Lots of good stuff in there. If you want, skip to the end of 21-40 and see how/why Altar is dead in season 41.
Seasons 41-60: https://forums.elementalgame.com/404949
Seasons 61+: https://forums.elementalgame.com/404982
great to see all of this stuff being seriously documented and hopefully worked on.
Are the AI's configured via an XML file? That is each leader has an XML file that would configure their likes and dislikes in terms of troop types upgrades, use of spells and build order? Is it possible for us to configure the npc leaders via a configurator of some sort that would let us custom build NPC leaders to fight?
1.19b Strategic Analysis here: https://forums.elementalgame.com/405148
Brad - thanks for the work on the goodie huts. Can you please figure out what's wrong with those factions noted above and help the AI gear the champions? Thanks! [e digicons]:cylon:[/e]
Great stuff AlLanMandragoran! I won't be copying everything to the list, I'll just keep your thread link on top of Community Confirmed list to make sure it's seen.
I've got a "Top Priority" list on top of everything else. Right now the champion problems are there because it seems like the AI is not handling AI levels and equipment at all. Personally I believe right after that should come strategic AI stuff you're exploring and the tactical AI targetting a single unit and forgetting everything else.
I started a thread about tactical combat (https://forums.elementalgame.com/405229) which turned into a discussion about ways to improve both tactical combat and how the AI behaves there. One of the respondents pointed out that this related thread would be a good place to have the discussion, so I am posted a link here. (Apologies if this is not standard forum protocol - I'm new.
Thanks citywolfdreams!
I'll add your AI observations from the post.
And don't worry about forum protocol, you're doing just fine. We're all newbies here, I just registered in 2003 [e digicons][/e]
1.19c Strategic Analysis here: https://forums.elementalgame.com/405436
Brad & Crew - Please get those memory issues fixed and start gearing sovereigns, spouses, and champions. Thanks![e digicons]:cylon:[/e]
Great work as always AlLanMandragoran! I updated the top link of Community Confirmed to your newest thread.
Glad to see other factions fixed. Have you tried another game to see if it's again just Umber that's smoking weed?
Heh, I'll do another test this weekend and advise to see if there's consistency across factions or if issues vary across games.[e digicons]:cylon:[/e]
Performed a second analysis of 1.19c here: https://forums.elementalgame.com/405436. Please see reply #1 to that thread.
Brad - unsure why some factions act retarded, suspect broken xml tags. And of course gear sovereigns, spouses, and champions...blah blah blah. [e digicons]:cylon:[/e]
Brad - here's a save of a real game I'm playing. Note Capitar pop locked at 5 and not doing a daggum thing. Consistent with my above test game. This is random medium map, ridiculous across the board, custom sov, normal pacing, max players. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/19969679/Elemental/119c/79.EleSav[e digicons]:cylon:[/e]
Brad - same game as above. Note Kraxis sovereign suicide plunge into my kingdom despite an overwhelming advantage in FP, military technology, and unit quantity.
Please gear the sovereigns, spouses, and champions. Please also review their suicidal tendencies. It would also be nice to not have an entire empire/kingdom disappear if the sov does commit suicide. Just bringing this to your attention to constructively criticize in efforts to make the game better. Many thanks for you and your team's efforts!
[Edit] Brad - just some additional color around this situation. Kraxis had the edge to actually defeat me if they became agressive and force magnified. If you look at the quantity of units across their cities, they could have created a max stack (maybe even two) and invade. I was actually waiting for them to do that (hoping the AI would) - it could have caused me serious trouble. I would have had to get creative in tactical combat (i.e. use the fences in city tactical to allow only 1-2 of their units to attack at a time) and that still might not have gone my way. But instead their sovereign decided to stick his neck out.
Those three things above could have caused a loss or at least grinding retreat. Thanks!
Also - if it helps, I personally use the following logic for kingdom defense:
+Karma to Mandragoran for his continuous (and painful) dance with the AI.
Brad - here's a season 164 save from 1.19c real game I mentioned above. Capitar finally got their act together (broke the pop lock jam) but it took around 140 seasons. Note their capital is now level 3 and they've created a pioneer. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/19969679/Elemental/119c/164.EleSav
I'm at war with Magnar but we're playing footsie together. They've sent a couple of threatening stacks that made me sweat a little. Just about done civilizing the southern portion of my kingdom then I'll probably dispatch Capitar then turn my attention to Magnar. Will advise if I see any crazy AI behavior.
Brad - Season 208 of the 1.19c real game. I have yet to turn my attention to Magnar but Capitar is now dead (put them out of their misery) and cleaning up remaining wastelands before turning my attention to Magnar and the rest of the map. My mid to end game steamroll is about to begin.
Please look at my 4 hero stack near the Food7 settlement and the latest weak Magnar stack sent my way. Power of my stack is 152 while his is 72. The fact they are building quality units is good yet they are not consolidating enough units in a stack to make a viable threat. A Magnar human player would consolidate units at Odoma and then push forward. It appears the stacks are deciding to prioritize something in my kingdom but ignoring the quadruple hero threat about to ram some metal up their behinds (this might also explain why Kraxis sovereign committed suicide earlier in the game). Can you please review what the AI is considering a priority here? Are they "seeing" something weak behind my perimeter and ignoring the more powerful perimeter units in their way? This seems to be a trend across games - I know I've seen other folks post similar concerns.
Anyway, something to look into to help make the AI more competitive. Thanks!
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/19969679/Elemental/119c/208.EleSav
Brad - note this season 218 save. Magnar placed his semi-geared sovereign within range of my 6-hero stack on the eastern front (between my Food7 and Magnar's Odoma). Despite having several large and competitive normal stacks nearby, he's left his sov completely undefended and all I need to do is move in for the kill. This single decision isn't a game-ender as he'll survive and respawn in Odoma. But I could pursue him there next turn and end it. Please review the gearing and suicidal tendencies.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/19969679/Elemental/119c/218.EleSav
[Edit] Interesting. When I loaded the game the sovereign disappeared from his location. Does the AI move units again on reload?
Derek - Touch of Entropy range check is broken. Although I commend the AI for using it, Magnar's sovereign spammed the spell at my heroes across the tactical map. Is this intended or a bug? Thanks.
[Editx2] Brad - In season 220 Magnar sent his almost naked daughter with one escort unit and placed her in the tile right next to my fully geared hero stack. I think he's trying to distract me with her beauty.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/19969679/Elemental/119c/220.EleSav
1.19d Strategic AI analysis here: https://forums.elementalgame.com/405730
Brad - great work, the "nones" are looking way better! Still have something going on with broken xml tags as Pariden should not have sat there for 10-12 years before doing anything. Capitar gets a Darwin award for dying by season 24. The housing criticism in season 12 across all factions is probably a bit unfair as I know they can't build housing until they have the mats and farm (900% bonuses to everything when they do, however). Overall looks like great progress. Thanks for the efforts!
P.S. - please gear the sovereigns, spouses, and champions. I don't remember if I mentioned that in prior posts. lol
New thread for Balance issues here https://forums.elementalgame.com/405729/#2894536
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