I do not understand. Does not Combat Speed already work as "initiative"? Fastest folks go first, slowest folks go last, repeat?
I'm green as they come in Elemental, but I love the concept of the game, and have high hopes for its future, when there's enough substance to keep my interest for more than an afternoon.
A better idea would a dex penalty, based on the type of armor, and the armor-wearer's strength, instead of a flat fiat rule. Suggested this earlier, but no one reads my stuff ^_^.
That would force more choices I believe.
Overall, I like these changes, but I think down the road with this stuff- these things will need to be added
a) Stats for non-heroes. I really feel like each troop should have its own stats, with higher levels of training equalling better stats.
b) more uses for stats, but more passive special abilities that modify things in addition to the stat itself.
I REALLY like the sound of this.
I have but two questions, does Elemental now use the stats to calculate things like a Merchant's income? If not then can this feature be modded in? This is something I've been looking forward to since release.
Looking forward to next week
Essence points actually had a purpose at the begining of the game: it was a currency for really potent spells or abilities, something that could only be increased via leveling or maybe very rare items and that would be sacrificed to cast world-shattering spells. It should have stayed separate from intelligence and mana from the beginning; it should have been its own thing instead, with very situational (and yet gameplay-changing) use.
Exactly!
I am disappointed in seeing such an interesting game mechanic removed.
Most of the other changes look really good though, especially the combat mechanics redesigns.
You sir........have a very good point.
Good, maybe, but I don't think it's a very logical point. =P
I understand "non-combat build" as a farmer or miner. Getting XP from quests is completely against staying at home farming or mining.Rescueing princesses or sorting through bones on old battlefields does not make you a better farmer.
However, getting "real XP" from the staying at home bit is a balancing issue because you could level up your champs at home without any risk,putting all the level up points into casting / fighting stats and effectively training "fighting champs" without every risking their hide in a battle.That also has to be avoided.
The only real alternative is a skill system where "staying at home farming or mining" only increases said farming/mining skillbut not the general level of the champion - or only increases the normal level veeeery slowly.
After looking a bit longer at the new formulaes i think that the low impact of the stats makes the RPG part of Elemental boring, because it makes only a small difference if i have a stat of 5 or 15.
The level scaling of the stats should be completly removed, because a character gets new stat points at every level, and the stats should have the following formulaes:
Attack (should be called Physical Damage) = Weapon Damage * Strength * 0.1Defense (should be called Physical Resistance) = Armor value (which is substracted from the Damage)Physical Accuracy = (50 * Dexterity * 0.1) % (Weapon Attack)Mental Accuracy = (50 * Intelligence * 0.1) % (Spell Attack)Hit Points = 30 * Constitution * 0.1Mental Resistance = Armor value (which is substracted from the Damage)Mental Damage = Spell Damage * Charisma * 0.1
At the character creation the Sovereign starts with a score of 10 in every stat and the player can reduce a stat to 5 or increase a stat to 15. At every level after the first the player can increase one stat by one point.
Other leadership bonuses could be added (new abilities or based off CHA as well), perhaps a leader with the right skill (or high CHA, whatever) could give an action to another unit within his range for example. This could be fun and make for a larger influence of commanders, besides their inherent personal combat prowess or casting ability.
I think you missed my point.
People complaining about essence are complaining about a concept. Not an actual mechanic. Like this. Essence never worked that way in the release version of the game, and it's usefulness was gradually stripped down in every major beta release. The specific complaint I responded to was someone saying "can you imagine if in that old forum thread, we told Brad how it'd end up?"
Which is why I said what I did. Originally tactical combat was supposed to be realtime, with huge scale. So saying that essence differs from the forum thread enough that it's worth scrapping outright now doesn't say much, since it's another in a long list of things that are totally different from where we started.
At this point, "essence" is a loaded word for something that doesn't really exist in 1.09 either. All they've done in 1.1 is made it official.
Hit Points = 30 * Constitution * 0.1 can be rewritten to:
3 * Constitution
That's a slightly larger version of what we have in 1.09, and HP totals on champions are FAR too small as the game goes on (unless you invest no points in anything else). The new version actually gives you more per point once you gain a few levels, because of the level factor. It goes up in value to keep up with the growing HP of squads, which get bigger as the game goes on.
The new stats overall are a drastic improvement.
Great!..can't wait for v1.1! [e digicons]:thumbsup:[/e]
Very true, it's a massive improvement from what we currently have.
Though I was comparing some stuff and a vetern unit starts with 10 HP and gains 6 HP per lev up. That means that any veteran unit is the equivalent of a 15 con hero in terms of Hit points. I don't recall what an elite units starting HP total or HP gain is, but it's reasonable to guess they have 13-15 HP and gain 7-9 per level. With that kind of HP scaling that puts elite units very close to either a 20-25 con hero, with the 25 con just about winning with 10 HP per lev up.
Lets say you wanted to create a hero and rush for 25 con which can be achived at level 5:-
Lev 1 CON start @ 15 with 16 HPLev 2 CON now 18 = 23.3 HP (GAIN PER LEV UP 7.2)Lev 3 CON now 21 = 31.7 HP (GAIN PER LEV UP 8.4)Lev 4 CON now 24 = 41.3 HP (GAIN PER LEV UP 9.6)Lev 5 CON now 25 = 51.3 HP (GAIN PER LEV UP 10)
Now compare a 25 con hero to an elite unit at level 5. I didn't know the HP details of an elite unit for certain so I've included the information for elite units with 13 and 15 starting HP.ELITE UNIT @ LEV 5 (With 13 Start HP and 7 per lev up) = 41ELITE UNIT @ LEV 5 (With 15 Start HP and 9 per lev up) = 51
Now at best a 25 Con hero wins by just 10 HP and in the worst case sceanrio they are equal with 51 HP each. I don't know about you lot, but this is just a depressing bit of news to me. A massive point allocation to con and a hero doesn't have even have near 50% more HP then an elite unit? Elite units to the best of my knowledge only take a little more time to make and don't cost additional resources even, whereas a hero must spend a large sum of valuable stat points........this hardly seems fair. It gets even worse when you consider that these elite units will probably be in a party with each unit within possessing HP nearly equal to a heroes own...
I will be very interested to see how the Mana maintenance cost factors in to both, imbued hero's (assuming one is applied) and Summons, many/most of whom have their own mana pools, albeit small ones, (if any is applied to additional mana available based on the enchantment slot mana increases)
I really hope that mana maintenance costs do not impact, to heavily, the players ability to have LOTS of Magic throwers, especially in a game called "ELEMENTAL: WAR of MAGIC"
This assumes of course that Brad's new AI will use Magic much more aggressively and effectively, moving forward, than it does currently.
Some champions have special attacks that currently take mana but aren't really magic. I wonder if this still makes sense under a global mana system? They could instead cost the user's HP, or take longer to charge.
You are right. The suggested HP were perhaps a bit too low, but the main reason of my post was that i think the stats in 1.1 have only a very small impact on the gameplay and that makes the RPG part of Elemental boring.
With my suggested HP formulae a Con 25 hero would have 75 HP (30 * 2.5).
Based on what was said in an earlier post, standard units will be treated as if they have a 10 in all the stats. So the elite unit HP calculation may also be changing in 1.1 Going with these numbers, I'll agree it doesn't look great.
There's few RPG games where some stats had such drastic impacts as something like Strength does in Elemental 1.09. In something like D&D, a unit with 20 strength gets a higher strength bonus then a unit with 10 strength. It doesn't DOUBLE the damage of any weapon they pick up. But it does here. There's no way to balance that in any kind of coherent way.
With the 1.1 formula, a hero with 25 CON at level 10 would have 110 HP. Just saying.
Really improved over the original lame system. Particularly like splitting up dodging & damage absorption and after the clarification it seems the roll for damage absorption (not dodging) will not be linear.
But I do agree with what the others have said
(a) Dodging/Dex seems to be not worth it.
It is true that dodging is 100% avoidance, but as someone argued, if you have 100 units, with 75% absorption, you still on average will have 100 units just 25% damaged, while 100 units with 75% dodge, you will have 75 units with 100% health, the former is preferred.
As many have suggested should probably up dodging a *bit* more, though I understand why developers want to avoid long overdrawn battles
(b)I wish there was some other way to make champions diff beyond just INT affects spells they could cast and damage (for some spells).
I understand imbuing champions will have a mana maintance cost but I still think it's a no brainer to imbue as many as possible (unless costs are high and/or mana pool low).
I don't like the idea of imbuing a high INT but level 1 champion and suddenly he can toss spells as powerful as the soveriegn (did i see somewhere someone saying soverigns can cast any spell regardless of INT??? hmm odd).
Level of champion should come into play somehow to determine how good a spell caster the champion in... could be spells that could be cast, mana that could be used per turn, efficiency of channelling (spell costs 10 mana, but if cast by champion costs 100%), effectiveness of spell etc..
(c) HP increase to champion per level helps.. but still not good enough...
I think it has being stated special attacks have a "Cool down" period.. which sounds like they can use the ability every x turns maximum...
Interesting so sovereigns can always cast any spell regardless of INT? I appreciate you want to differentiate between sovereign and imbued championsbut if INT doesn't affect spells sovereigns can cast, why would someone ever put points into that for the sovereign? Spell resistance only doesn't cut it. Maybe INT should affect mana pool?
I suppose offsprings can also cast spells limited to INT ?
Incidentally how mana is generated beyond buildings is the part of the game that is most hazy to me so far. How is "base" Mana pool calculated? I hope the choices you make designing the sovereign at the start should heavily influence this.
EWOM is slowly moving towards MOM level of "fun", but one area where 1.1 seems to be moving backwards is how fun it is in MOM to customize your wizard which has huge effects on how you play. Right now i understand you don't even get to choose what spell books, but it's all in research, so starting choice seems to matter little.
Spell hit is the same as melee hit calculation wise as your hit scales with your level, not any one stat. However, we can still modify the hit % of particular spells by putting accuracy mods on the spells themselves.
Hmm Level vs Stat.. My preference is for level to predominate mostly , experienced champions who are not as talented (average stat) should be better than green inexperienced talented champions though Stat should have some influence. INT affecting spells you can cast is reasonable , and follows ADND norms, while combat accuracy should indeed be more level based with stat modifers.
Come to think of it, you seem to be following ADND norms closely which is nice, since most TBS games like MOM, AOW don't have both stat and level so there is no precedent.
Trained units do have an int and dex stat, it is currently the default for all units (of 10). So that can be used for their dodge and resist, if we find we want more granularity than that for trained units we will address it later, for now it is basically a bonus you will get of better dodging and resisting with your champions and Sov.
Nice.. thinking ahead...So we could make units that are more magic resistant etc..
Okay I couldn't follow this. But what it sounds like is while dodging/accuracy is linear, damage that is done will have a more normalized distribution..
My understanding is that the idea here is that attacks are far more likely to hit despite dodging.
But damage is likely to be consistent, so high level champions are unlikely to cause zero damage.
So high level champions are almost likely to hit low level units and the damage they do will be consistent which is good..
Low level units have a decent chance of hitting high level champions (depending on how good at dodging champions are), but even if they do hit, damage is unlikely to be high...
Sounds good.
Hmmm, in D&D 3.0 or 3.5 a Longsword inflicts 1 - 8 points of damage. With a strength of 10 a character gets 0 points of bonus damage and with a strength of 20 a character gets 5 points of bonus damage. The average damage of the Longsword is increased from 4.5 to 9.5.
A straight comparison to D&D rules is just mudding up the waters because in D&D the chance to hit at all (and therefore the actual damage) heavily depends on the character level and class.
A lvl 11 fighter actually has twice the chance to hit AC -1 than a lvl 1 fighter or a lvl 10 caster.
However, while you suggest that another poster missed your point, I think you are missing mine. Comparing Essence as a game mechanic to a transition from RTS to turn-based or decreasing units is Apples-to-Oranges. Essence was fundemental to the entire LORE of E:WoM as reflected in the first novel, throughout these threads over months, etc. And while I readily admit to your points with respect to Essence continually being dumbed-down to apparent uselessness, many of us beta testers (including you, I believe), NEVER thought that was the correct path to follow. I still stand by my relatively extreme comparison however, taking Essence away from E:WoM is like taking properties out of Monopoly. Doesn't mean it won't be a good game, but you've changed a relvant design concept that was originally foundational.
Idea's that come to mind to further enhance the role of INT are to make the stat that determines what your able to caste as a magic user. Basicly to caste a spell you need to possess INT equal to the spells casting cost. To be honest this is an idea that I came up with after reading your post, haven't really thought about it in great detail....
I hope that SD will change alot of the perks, specifically adding ones that would be game impacting to the magic you caste. Personally I think the starting perks +1 tec, 1+ arcane and 2 food are probably some of the most feeble starting perks starting perks ever. Honestly, there value doesn't go beyond the first period of the early game.
Magic perks that would actually be useful...
-Boost magic attacks
-Boost Summons
-Boost enchantments
-Boost magical dispels
-Enhanced magic defense
-Sov genarates X amount of mana that is added to the poll each turn
Now, if they broke down the spell school research tree like this....
Fire --> Lev 1 --> lev 2 --> lev 3 --> lev 4 --> lev 5 --> lev 6 --> lev 7 --> lev 8 --> lev 9 --> lev 10
Water --> Lev 1 --> lev 2 --> lev 3 --> lev 4 --> lev 5 --> lev 6 --> lev 7 --> lev 8 --> lev 9 --> lev 10
Earth --> Lev 1 --> lev 2 --> lev 3 --> lev 4 --> lev 5 --> lev 6 --> lev 7 --> lev 8 --> lev 9 --> lev 10Air --> Lev 1 --> lev 2 --> lev 3 --> lev 4 --> lev 5 --> lev 6 --> lev 7 --> lev 8 --> lev 9 --> lev 10Enchant --> Lev 1 --> lev 2 --> lev 3 --> lev 4 --> lev 5 --> lev 6 --> lev 7 --> lev 8 --> lev 9 --> lev 10
With this kind of setup players are free to grab spells they want from a perticular tree. If the research trend remains true to the way it is in most of my games then spell research begins to slow around level 7 and becomes snail-like in speed at lev 9 & 10. That would mean it wouldn't be such a big deal to get low level spells from just about any tree and mid level spells would also be possible. But when it concerns the high levels thats probably where it would be wise to focus all the remaining research in that perticular branch.
There are many great features available to you once you register, including:
Sign in or Create Account
