I'm just going to say it: I don't care if the game has more than one race. I don't think the game design lends itself well to causing the player to care, like we did in MoM or MoO2. The different races' characteristics add extra complexity that I feel could simply be folded into empire characteristics. Streamlined. The different races might make more sense if they were all genetic humans with different cultures.
We can't touch and move population units (ex: like MoM, MoO2) so it's tough to guess what math is going on behind the scenes. When we conquer a city, does its population change to be your race?
You can build cities on vastly different parts of the globe. How is it that ONLY Amarrians, for example, seek out these cities. Do any cities have mixed race populations?
In Civ games everyone's human so it's easier. Conquered populations immediately take on your empire's characteristics, could build your special units, etc. EWoM currently 'feels' like all the peoples are the same as you play it but is telling us that behind the scenes, abstracted, different empires are different races. I already don't see much difference between empires.
lolwut?
I understand what you are saying. I don't know what the devs have planned, but this game is going to need some sort of race/culture system. It would be stupid to conquer a city of another race only to have the game immediately treat the people of that city as if they were the same race as yours. We will have to see what sort of system is developed, if one is developed (I hope).
Well, I think they've got a few choices as how to handle it... Which they could easily implement all of, as an actual choice you make upon liberating/conquering a city.
Some suggestions to that end:
Enslave - The city maintains the characteristics of its founding race, but an 'Upper-Caste' of people from your own society is implemented to keep order and force the peasantry to bend to your will. This could also come with a chance for revolution that could be affected by local military, food, and how much the original inhabitants hate you. (Any one or a mix of those, and I'm sure there are other things you could think of that may or may not factor in to it.)
Purge/Cleanse - Which of these it would be would depend on whether you're 'Good' or 'Evil,' however, and if, that's defined. The city maintains only the look of it's original inhabitants, and only for so long, until finally it's been... 'Adapted,' to your races needs. However, this requires you to move/acquire new citizens for the city.
Liberate - Opposite of Enslave, though not exclusive to enslaved cities. If a city is unhappy enough with its current leader, or was previously enslaved by said leader, and you come in and seemingly save the day for them, you receive a temporary bonus to... Something, build speed, resource production, citizen growth, or any combination there-in. (I say 'seemingly,' because when people want change, and it comes, they generally welcome it with open arms, for better OR worse.) Once the bonus wears off, so does the charm surrounding your liberation, and the city, depending on circumstance returns to a more 'Normal' state of operation.
Integrate - Attempt to integrate that cities population into your empire as a whole, and have a chance to provide a bonus or penalty for an (un)successful integration. There would also be an chance for there to be no bonus or penalty at all, and the chance for the citizens to be more or less neutral to the idea of integration could rise proportionally with how often the city changes hands.
Exile - Exile the current citizenry, allowing them to return to their original empire and giving you control of the city. You would need to bring in new citizens, but you could receive a temporary Prestige bonus in that city, since you showed mercy to your enemy, therefore giving people something to say about you.
There are a million-and-one ways to implement this kind of mechanic, and a million-and-one choices for the mechanic to work on. This is just a very limited sample using what I could come up with off the top of my head.
Do a Khan on them. Put the citizenry to the Blade and when that is done, if you don't like the local Architecture, (Fallen Filth) simply raze all but the fertile lands and start over.
A Volcano works too.
*sigh* Races have special traits buildings design etc. even spells so shush they are needed and can be balanced and can work I'm through arguing with those whom do not even look into the game before commenting.
It needed to be said. If you are going to have multiple races, you have to deal with the consequences. This was done smoothly and successfully in previous games. So far Elemental hasn't really decided if it want's to be Civ or MoM in this regard. Having one race simplifies the game design, but having two or three is the same as having 20. All the same design decisions must be made for 2 races that must be made for 20, and if you're going that way, you might as well have the full 20! In any case you need rules to set how and if other races can live in your cities.
One... What are you even talking about? It's like you didn't even read the posts.
Two... If you're here to 'argue', then I think you're here for the wrong reasons. Good debate towards the end of trying to help make Elemental be all it can be should be the only thing even similar to arguing that we're doing.
Three... You nailed the problem right on the head with your post, but you're treating it as if it's the answer. We know there will be special traits, designs, etc... The question is, since those -are- in the game, should change be affected, and how will change be affected on a newly conquered city of a race not already your own or under similar circumstances?
I don't mean to hound, but do us a favor and either re-read the posts and provide some constructive suggestions or criticism, or, like you pretty much said, don't bother.
Edit: Directed at Seth.
I am trying to debate and help the game its just that people become annoying when they don't pay much attention to things.
The reason why their's Races And empires and kingdoms is because of the storyline and the fact that this is a FANTASY rpg having only humans in a magic game is silly.
besides game mechanics wise? i would believe that RikazeMA said exactly as i would on it. Simple mechanics to deal with the treatment of the race besides the game tracks civs individually *at least it tracks how many there are their gender etc.* so race shouldn't be hard at all to implement therefore his whole 'it makes no sense' point is ridiculous. And if that isn't the point what is? game mechanics? if so then its practically already been covered.
If its design decision's then oh IDK Its a fantasy game? maybe the lore thats been written or the BOOK mentions the other races? i mean numerous reasons graphically and design based to put in multiple races.
Other then that there's the fact that it adds more depth and strategy and allows you to design your own race?
Honestly overall i see no reason why there shouldn't be plus the modding applications are amazing.
I do however apologize if my post seemed to be dismissive i simply had a rough day already and i didn't feel like typing all of this up before having a cup of coffee.
It did seem dismissive, but more than that, I think you may have misunderstood the point the OP was driving at. He wasn't exactly crystal clear about it either.
But now it seems like you're on track with the topic, so, no harm done.
Well i do apologize for being abit dismissive i didn't mean to be upset I'm just worried about a test n stuff its cool i hope.
Like I said, no harm done. You aren't the only one on edge... Though, I'm just cranky from insomnia. =P
Seth, There are plenty of fantasies where the only race of note is humans. Arthurian myths include magic.
I didn't know about any novelization. I'll concede that they're probably more invested in the 'multiple races' concept than I'd guessed. I assure you I have a lot of familiarity with this game. I've been beta testing it quite a bit. I didn't just walk in here off the street.
I do tend to open with a 'superlative'. I exaggerated. Races do make SOME sense. But with racial effects hidden from me, I am never reminded they even exist as I'm playing the game.
I played much more MoO2 (Master of Orion II) than MoM (Master of Magic, one of the inspirations for EWoM), but both handled population very similarly. Each unit of population was depicted in a little icon that could be allocated to farming, production, or research. I am not advocating that EWoM adopt THIS system, but I want to point it out as something that reminded the player that certain cities were always yours and some were conquered.
In MoO2 I'd actually make decisions on who to conquer based on their racial characteristics. Klackons were amazing producers so I'd happily conquer and assimilate them, but I wouldn't PLAY as them because of their weaknesses. You could pretty much start as one race and replace your entire population with another, keeping your own race's government, research creativity, and troop and ship strength while benefiting from your alien population's farming, manufacturing, research, and gold producing buffs, along with their population growth and environmental/gravity tolerances.
That was a mouthful.
Back to EWoM: we currently don't know or care what race "does" after we've begun to play and conquer. I hope that I'm wrong and we'll see something really cool in the game!
Yes well i think we should leave this one to the Dev's even if its just cometic i like multi races.
And so do I, I think the inclusion of multiple races enhances the game. It is afterall a fantasy setting . . .
Nor are we the only ones to think so:
https://forums.elementalgame.com/371166
Watch the video.
Moo2 was very cool in this regard. If you conquered a silicoid planet with no food you can take advantage of the fact they don't need food. So in effect you have two species mitigating their respective weakness and better using their strengths.
Yeah I liked that about MOO2! MOO was basically the same format as Galciv2 though, which I did kind of think was a letdown when I played Galciv2. Populations of different intelligent species should mean something, if done right it can add flavor to the game, if not then it makes them seem innocuous.
In Civ IV, different nationalities could make a big difference on how easy it was to hold a city of a different nation. You would have to stack up units in a city to keep it from going into revolt--the more different the people were from your home race, the worse it was.
I only hope that, if there are to be multiple races/cultures, cities need not be monolithic. Capturing an Urxen city and earning their loyalty should allow you to build Urxen troops, even if in limited qualities or with poor morale. I think a lot of people would like to have more pluralistic societies rather than merely slaughtering prior inhabitants or having them magically turn into the race of conqueror.
On the other hand, don't make it into HOMMV, where you just as easily recruit elves into your undead army of darkness.
I noticed that there is only one race in Beta 1Z, I was like what?
This is likely to be temporary. Still, you can make a custom race if it really bothers you.
More MoM, less Civ. Don't get me wrong, Civ games are great and they do have their "strengths", in my opinion though, "Variety" isn't one of those strengths. Neither is their horrid combat model but this isn't about that. The Races should mean something, just as they do in MoO2 and MoO3 and countless other Fantasy/Sci Fi games. As said above in numerous replies, Races need to Mean something. As such, in a game with multiple races, you have to be prepared to deal with the consequences of Mixing those Races.
A lot of games that have multiple races for gameplay variety do a great job in making those races "mean something". A lot of those very same games do a Horrible Job at dealing with the consequences of Mixing those races. In fact some of these game ignore any racial distinction what-so-ever once those races are mixed. I honestly don't think Stardock would do something like that, as to me, that just shows a lack of will in taking ideas to completion and Stardock isn't that Lazy.
The question will be how they decide to implement those racial distinctions once they are mixed. In a lot of games the different races strive to simply wipe each other out and can't mix. In the intelligent design of a strategy game this isn't the case. How they mix simply needs to be kept "logical" and "simple".
Since Elemental draws from the population of cities when drafting military units the game should take that into account. When you make a new unit there should either be a percentage chance based on the population or you should get to chose what race the soldier is. Choice or automation, either way, in intelligent design this need to be present. That alone is why in a lot of games they keep the races separate or have two sets (or more) of each unit a city can make or they have completely different recruiting structures (meaning you need 2 barracks in the same city).
Also though, for story and background reasons, some populations may simply refuse to live together. Different races that were both of the same faction (Kingdom or Fallen) could mix populations, but races of Different factions may not be able to mix at all. I'm sure the Devs will chose something, and it's highly possible it may be a core mechanic we have almost no say on. We should still try to steer them in a intelligent direction with our suggestions and thoughts in the Ideas Section though.
Raven, I'm stealing your Post Number 21 and transplanting it into another thread along the same vein as this one. Hope you don't mind. (I'll be quoting you so it's not like I'm trying to plagarize you. =P)
You're what?!?!?! That's it, I'm suing!!! Prepare to feel the Power of Attorney!!!
LoL J/K , be my guest, friend.
The short answer is: We don't know yet how the different races will be handled when you capture cities. We've gone back and forth internally on the topic. Ultimately, it will boil down to what makes the game the most fun for the widest number of people -- and what we ourselves like.
That said, I agree in principle with what Raven has said. I'm just not going to promise anything.
No promises needed. I think we all understand at this point it's still way too early to nail down anything solid with so many other things to do first. Just saying how you're putting thought into it shows a lot. Thanks, Frogboy
Note: especially with something so "potentially" complicated
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