Regarding this thread https://forums.wincustomize.com/367136/page/5 post 105
Most certainly contradictory.
This post is not intended to cause divison but to serve only as an example and to segway into what I personally believe is an important discussion as we look forward to the new WC2k site.
Perhaps I'll get flamed, blamed, insulted, I hope not, I hope that you all can see my points and discuss this like adults.IMO.. anyone should be able to say what they like in any skin submission, Anyone with half a brain and a bit of common sense can tell a whether they like a skin or not from its representative screenshot. If someone wants to say my skin looks like some MS default skin, knock yourself out, but PLEASE don't tell the rest of us, any of us that what was good for goose the isn't good for the gander.No one should have any right to say they cannot or that if they leave a negative comment that it must be accompanied by qualified critique. The best critique I ever got was 'this skin sucks" and other pretty similar vicious remarks.We either have the right to free speech here.. or we don't.Question - How is it that someone (WC Mod) can say that a person who has not purchased and used a skin has no business commenting on it, then proceed to accuse people of being destructive or doing it to sound big, when they did exactly the same thing just a few days earlier.Strikes me as biased at the very least. It is also not the first time it has happened, I could list quite a few more of these types of comments in my threads but I wont. It really is an aside from my broader point but something that I didn't appreciate nonetheless.Basically, to stifle any kind of commenting on skins is just plain wrong, to allow only positive comments leads to nothing but "Looks Great!" type comments. When this happens, I do believe skinners might think.. Everyone says I'm great.. so i must be!
Imo, this just fosters apathy and contentment that can lead to a skinner not being motivated to push themselves any harder than they have to.I believe the entire WC community is \ has been a victim of this type of mentality and I for one would like to see it move towards more realistic feedback in the galleries and forums.I think there should be an option on the new site that give the skinner an option to choose to receive 'Advanced Critque'. This option would show they are willing to take the hard knocks and the tough love that some of us have learned to appreciate in our path to being more technically competent skinners and artists. Those who only want candy coated, mushy, look at me comments... can choose to not accept the option.
Of course anyone would be able to say what is on their mind regardless of which option the submitting artist chose but just having the submissions labeled as 'Willing to receive advanced critique' will show who is willing to receive the harsh, more in depth and indeed.. negative.. stuff as well as the more common ego boosting comments.. This policy was implemented on DA and I believe is a very good idea.
We shouldn't have to fear stating our honest opinion or be accused of trying to feel big or put out someones candle for doing so.Lastly, if bad\negative opinions are not allowed or 'discouraged' on a skin that has not been purchased yet, then why in the heck are postive ones allowed and\or without corresponding critique? The entire premise is flawed.
Doesn't make any sense to me and telling us all that it should be the rule of thumb.. again... IMO is just plain wrong.
I would like to think this discussion could be civil and debated sensibly.
Thanks.
i for one 100% agree with you on that
It's my understanding that negative comments ARE allowed, but an orchestrated barrage of negative comments by a group of individuals who chat regularly with each other on a daily basis, especially after the skinner who created that particular skin was threatened, that exactly such a thing would happen due to a post she made, doesn't foster community; it's divisive and polarizing.Of course, you can just pretend this post isn't here, since you've instructed me I am to no longer communicate with you.
I don't think 'uninformed' opinion is worth the breath...whether it be for OR against.
No matter what kudos is placed upon the 'art of screenshotting' it is merely representational at best and is NOT a skin.
For all the it's-great-but-I-didn't-try-it ot it-sucks-big-time-but-I-didn't-try-it comments, for all THEY know the skin might even be a total dud...as in DOES NOT WORK.
Sure...after a decade of looking at Windowblind skins [for example] I can get a pretty good idea that... IF I DOWNLOAD IT/TRY IT it will not be 'my cup of tea'...but that is pure personal preference and has no bearing on its potential appeal/popularity [or disfavour]..
I would never have the effrontery to claim it to be good/crap/not Master standard UNLESS I had at LEAST given it [and the Skinner] the benefit of the doubt and tested it first.
That sort of process has exactly ZERO to do with 'free speech'...but it has shit-loads to do with common courtesy and mutual respect.
No they were most certainly discouraged tho weren't they?
Barrage? If you have some proof of some conspiracy then please provide it, There was none, please stop exaggerating. It was precisely this reason I asked you not to communicate with me because of these kinds of accusations from you in other threads, it's uncalled for and childish.
Take a moment to calm down and think clearly before levelling any more accusations please.
Friends would have been a much easier and accurate description. Or as some people like to negatively describe them .. Cliques.
This has nothing to do with the post..how quickly your own apology post has been forgotten, can we please try stay on topic instead of character assasination.
ahh yes, but there are 6 billion other opinions and ways of doing things. What you may or may not do has zero bearing on what the next guy or girl may.. or may not.
you mean what I myself was not afforded? [see beggining of post and corresponding link]
John...is this [only] about you or was/is it supposed to be a general discussion?...
Both.... but if it was only about me.. is that a bad thing too?
getting my drift?
I can almost already name everyone who will show up here and what they will say.
Already looks like it's going nowhere.
Congrats
Semantics.
Does anyone have anything sensible to say regarding the extensive amount of the post that dealt with the main issue?
Since day one it has been acceptable to post both/either positive or negative comments on a skin upload.
There has always been one 'ideal' proviso...and that was that IF the comment was negative it was seen as constructive [and beneficial] to perhaps provide some advice/details/reasons. [positive comments don't typically need justification [though I do remember the odd "Nice" that got up people's noses]].
The two most common reasons a person is removed from Stardock's sites are... [drive-by spammers [ya gotta love Nike runners]] and abusive/insulting comments [some of those have been quite colourful], but someone posting "I really don't like this." will be quite safe from exile/removal.
As people develop a history on the site/in skinning, and are perhaps revered by their peers then what they say [or simply infer] can have a lot more 'weight' attributed to it.
Not everyone is as tactfull as most would like, unfortunately, so if, say, a Master skinner were to comment [on a skin] "This is crap".... there will be quite a lot of people who will think "wow, it MUST be crap, cos Master 'X' said so".
It is PARTICULARLY the Masters of this community that really need to help explain their opinion/condemnation with supporting detail and let's face it...they REALLY SHOULD test it...even open the archive and rummage through it internally...before weighing in with a ham-fisted denouncement...
Did any Masters comment? This wasn't anything to do with Masters.. this was about allcomers.
and..
You have yet to weigh in on the part of the post that does pertain.. to me. Is it somehow ok for admin to participate in a drive by? It wasn't the first time.
Not a very good example was it.
The post was intended to put forth some suggestions and ideas about how to imporve the site, how to improve the work of both up and coming skinners and seasoned ones.
Do you honestly think after staying here day in , day out, nights too for the past 4 years helping in anyway I could that I would make a post like this without sincerely being interested in the betterment of the site for all?
Cmon.
Is anyone in the least interested in this or shall we just all bash each others heads in?
John...I am at least talking generally, and not allowing yet another thread to become some personal crusade by whomever against whomever else.
You asked for constructive discussion...I'm giving it.
Fine, damage control implemented, you have no opinion on that. I didnt expect it. I'll live.
Now, on with the debate eh.
No Admin HAS 'participated in a drive-by'. Last I recall, the only Admins to recently comment anywhere on the site were/are myself, Island Dog, Zubaz, Karmagirl and Frogboy...
Knew that was coming... Mod.. exuuuse me
Hey...I have LOTS of opinions.....and all of them my own...
I'm opinionated...
lol... Public opinion... should I go back and ammned?
Should I just get on IRC?
I think everyone else is sleeping
I agree with this.
Present.
I don't dispute this. I am surprised when folks with more experience, accomplishment, talent, and 'influence' voice their opinions recklessly. By that, I mean not explaining their 'It sucks' or "Isn't of a certain quality'. That would be my personal opinion of 'recklessly'.People are going to voice there opinions any way they want and to try and set restrictions would be akin to censorship. If they are to have the freedom to voice their opinions, others should have the freedom to respond. As others have pointed out, there are those who just don't know what the f**k they are talking about. Any one who has been around long enough knows or can tell who they are when they comment and knows to ignore them.
Question: Your post refers to a forum thread where a off-handed(?) critique was given. Isn't that why you posted it there as a WIP? To get some feedback?
As for what is said in the gallery's and your suggestion for an option to accept advanced critiques...I think it has the potential to create more problems. It would lable the skinners and divide them. And in the end, who's skin is 'that' thick. Honestly, as much as I disagree with the way some folks post their comments, if you can't take the good with the bad, then don't post the work to begin with.
I maybe way off center here because comments on a skinners work do provide at times usefull feedback.
Unfortunately though comments of the nature that have happened recently don't serve any other purpose but to feed others to do nothing but copy and pile on. Comments and Ratings have been a discussion in the forums numerous times in the past five years of my being a member of the community.
So what to do? Do away with comments and ratings completely? That doens't sound like much of a fix or something that helps a community.
A lot of skinners have been posting threads about a WIP (Work in Progress) where they openly ask for comments. Not sure how the comments are going there. Should every skinner have to do a WIP thread? That doesn't sound like a fix either.
Again, do away with comments? I don't like that idea.
Why do the comments have to be public? It seems that is the major problem right now, public comments. Change the comments system to where you can still leave one but they go to the skinner as a PM and others don't get to read them. Probably could be done, anyone ready to ask Stardock to make that change? I don't think we will get any volunteers for that.
So what options are we left with?
We could just learn to live with the opinions and comments of others. Yes, some folks can really be rude and down right mean. As they say in the real world, that's life.
I didn't touch on the free speech issue, why, well folks at times seem to use that way too much. We all do have the right to free speech, our opinions and the freedom to comment when asked, but there is a line there that at times gets ignored and stepped over. Free speech does not and was never meant to allow anyone to be rude, mean, inpolite or just down right nasty.
So what's the answer, we could all, myself included, try to be more caring and civilized when commenting, yeah, like that is ever going to happen.
I just remembered one other thing about free speech, it has and will continue to allow folks to open thier mouth and remove all doubt as to thier intelligence. That's a joke son, laugh it up.
This reply was not addreseed at anyone and is just my take on what has happen in the past couple of days.
Stating opinions is something we all do in every realm of life.
It happened to me today. Somebody stopped me and asked me a question, but I needed to get to where I was going, and if I delayed too much, I would have been late. Well, he told me what he thought... and I just smiled and went on.
I had to take into account that he did not fully understand my scenario. Not even close. He had an opinion based upon a significant bias and lack of understanding. But I still like the guy.
I have received comments on skins from time to time that I can tell are based upon a lack of understanding as to why I came up with a certain design. It is certainly within that person's right to state what he thinks; but certain comments I just take with a grain of salt.
Others have been where I am, and have achieved a level of excellence that I wish to achieve. So then, even if comments from those people seem to be rooted in a lack of understanding at the first, I usually find later that their understanding is far greater than I realized. Hence their level of excellence compared to mine.
2 Masters in particular (Z71 & vStyler) have been very blunt with me concerning my skinning. I am convinced that both have my best interest in mind, so I tend to listen, even when I don't understand; for perhaps I will understand later.
IMO, everyone has the right to tell me that my skin stinks. Someone once commented on one of my WB's, and all they said was that it "wasn't their cup of tea." Well, that's their right. They didn't qualify it. I also haven't seen them around before or since. So certain comments/commenters are taken by me with a grain of salt.
Others carry more weight and influence.
It can be hard to tell the tone of one's comments online sometimes. That's why smiley's help. I think people tend to get offended far too quickly, and far too easily. After all, in the end we're all supposed to be skinning for ourselves, right? So, in the end, if I as the creator like it, who really cares what everyone else thinks?
Yes it was sorta, actually its more for press than anything and its a way for me to answer questions or concerns from members that might be potential buyers. I didnt care then and I didn't care up until the minute the same person said
" I don't comment on the master skins I don't try or from the screen shot. That would be stupid. How can I say something about something I haven't tried. So if you people haven't tried it, how can one comment on it and be truthful about it? You can't. So why would one do it. To sound big? Be destructive? Run someone down in the eyes of the people? Or all the above? "
It still doesnt bother me to be slammed, never has really, I can be defensive just like everyone else, explain why I did something one way instead of perhaps how they may have liked it. In the end although it toughened me up in the good old days, Im totally over being affected by a negative comment from anyone at any status. I will continue to post WIP's and skins regardless of anything that is said in any thread.
The blatent contradiction coming from staff was my bone of contention.
Agreed.
The Advanced critique idea was more for the skinners that don't take critique well.. an opt out.. if nothing else but the broader point is no one should have to wrry about being honest or having to explain why they do or dont like something for fear of community reprisal.
I knew you were gonna say that
I can say without a shadow of a doubt that being verbally assualted in my 'formative years' probably did more to help me than hurt me. I was determined not to give anyone any reason to say anything negative. Many years later, I still get the odd shitty comment, but for the most part, because of my extended efforts, in most part due to negative comments..it has paid off.
Rarely have I had anyone suggest things, compliment, try to guide and it ever led to any significant improvement.
Like IR said, hop over to Neowin.net and check out the WB section, http://www.neowin.net/forum/index.php?showforum=62
They go to the extreme opposites, and it is where I first started posting. I would like to see balanced critique.
Not heavy handed and not candy coated.
One more thing: I have found things that I consider to be wrong with the skins of skinners who have a higher rank than I. I almost never point out any of those (supposed) flaws.
I kind of just figure that there's a reason why I'm a Master Apprentice, and they're a Journeyman or whatever.
I know that I can try to correct, but who am I to do so to one who is ahead of me?
OK, so what this is all about is a specific query about the quotes listed in comment #105 made by sydneysiders, quotes coming from a specific Moderator [Wom]?
That's not a 'general debate'. It sounds more akin to something expected to be confined to a Personal Message somewhere.
What part of this is 'not intended to cause division'?
I have an opinion on the quotes....and it ties in with all those GENERALITIES I've been pointing this thread to - and that is - try before you comment. If a Mod tries a skin...and comments about how he liked it then where is the issue? If that same Mod suggests all should try before they comment where is the controversy/hypocrisy?
While we are in specifics, I typically use skins [WB] like Antares and Avenger, why?
Because they do NOT look like a default MS look [or even vaguelly similar to one].
It's something I got [understood] about skinning in general and Windowblinds in particular...the ability/opportunity to be DIFFERENT. Heck, many of my skins had the buttons top-left....for no other reason than WB WOULD LET ME do so.
I see a lot of [what they like to call] "minimalist" skins these days [a better word is 'conservative' or 'safe'], possibly prompted by this desire to be commercially popular.
You said [via PM] that you're gonna be rocking our socks with some new skins now you have your new machine, etc.... here's hoping they'll be as wild and intriguing as they certainly will be well-constructed/executed...
Try loading up VOX, Polaris, Outer Limits, Avanti, SGS1, Prowler, Plastic Fantastic, Krome and tell me which, if any of them look like MS skins.. or safe.. in any which way or manner.
Actually, other than being beige in buttonface color, I'd like to know what in VXP 2010 is in anyway similar to a default MS skin.
meaning, the comment, altho, I could less about it.. was obviously unwarranted... to the extent that I was being approached with questions like 'WTF is up his ass" all day long.
Haven't got the new rig yet.
Aside from the fact it's about the third time in a week I have agreed with Jafo....
As someone who 'skins' or does 'graphics' or whatever......
I (meaning myself...I can't speak for everyone) hold you guys...the 'Masters' in pretty high regard. The Mods and Admins as well. AND....quite a few out there that don't have the afore mentioned titles but have accomplished as much. Unfortunately, for me (Myself again) that means I expect more...better from you/them. That includes critiques and comments. I value your opinions. That makes me (Myself again) vunerable to being crushed should someone like you/them just zip in and say "This isn't worth the time to download' or something like that. I can imagine that it is possible for an equal to feel the same way. I wouldn't even consider a negative comment if I had not downloaded it and tested it, tried it, etc.
Of a more personal opinion, I HAVE seen a lot of screenshots that did NOT do something justice and vice-versa. Maybe my eyes are worse than everyone elses, I don't know.
Now, it's my turn to really put my foot in it..I think some of what has recently transpired was sexist. On one hand, a lot of folks with good intentions trying to defend a female skinner and on the other, some folks using the fact it was a female skinner just to see what kind of response they could provoke. (I'm trying to decide if I should leave this or not. I'm leaving it.)
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