In my mind, the fun of Elemental resides in the fact that you’re not just trying to conquer some fantasy world but the world itself is designed to be so organic and unique from game to game.
A lot of the difference between games is a result of things like a tech tree that has different techs in it, a huge library of special content that is integrated into map generation randomly each game, quests, integrated community content, and the divergent paths to victory.
Now, as some of you know, Stardock’s bread and butter isn’t from game development. Our desktop software and enterprise software have always given us the luxury of being able to take as long as we want to develop our games as well as take “risks” on the way we release our games (no copy protection for instance – which, in case people are wondering, the retail version of Elemental will not have copy protection).
And that brings me to a question I wanted to pose to you folks. Would you be interested in us extending the beta? Since anyone can join betas by pre-ordering, we could try something that really hasn’t been done before as far as I know – make the beta experience something truly outstanding unto itself.
Right now, the schedule is this:
This is pretty much the same schedule we’ve been doing since Galactic Civilizations I back in 2003.
But imagine this kind of beta instead:
So what would be the point of this? The point would be to make it a lot more fun to develop the game with the beta testers. Rather than have v1.0 come out in February and then have v1.1 in say April and so on, we simply keep working on the game with the beta testers.
Then, when we release the game, it’s got a ton more stuff.
Here are some thoughts that come to mind:
How many players should/can we allow in a game? 8? 12? 32?
How sophisticated can we make dungeons in the game?
How sophisticated can we make quests in the game?
How sophisticated can we make tactical battles in the game?
How big of a scope can we give the campaign?
We don’t have the financial pressure to release the game in February and because of that, we have an opportunity to try something we’ve not done that we think might be really special and that is vastly increase the contribution of the beta players into the game than what we’ve done before.
The end result would, I think, be a game that could very well be a classic. A year’s worth of player input before it was released to the general public.
Tell us what you think.
I'm all for a long open beta because those who don't want to wait can simply join the beta (paying for it, of course, but you can't have everything).
After the initial burst of feedback I've just been hanging back until we actually have a beta to work with, I'll pipe up more when we do.
Thanks,
Keith
its not maturity, ppl is tired of early release with games not ready (even demigod if we have to be fair)
better more testing and more developed games at release
I think it should be launched fairly quickly, actually. A beta event can be an experience, but after launch things change completely. The length of the beta should be related to the amount of testing you want to get done.. if you want to do more things in a beta environment, take longer, otherwise, take shorter. It isn't our choice to make.
That said, I want it shorter so I can get some more people playing.
Also, as for number of players, I would put 8 at the minimum I'd want.. I've got a Dominions 3 game going right now with 8+ human players, and I can guarantee I'd have similar numbers for a dominions game. 16 would probably be more than enough, but better safe than sorry.
Hmm, a longer beta, that's a hard one to say. If a game drags to release for a long time it loses a lot of momentum. Rather than splashing onto the market, it just sort of finally plops out. Stardock might not need that momentum for sales like other companies, but every developer wants their stuff to be well received and anticipated. That's part of the enjoyment of what we do as developers.
There's already been a pretty lengthy pre-release time. My concern would be there are a lot of people that aren't interested in buying a beta, no matter how complete. They might be excited by demos and posts of people in the beta, but then by the time time it actually releases their desire has faded and some other shiny object has their attention.
Can you put off the decision until after the first beta gets well underway? If the TO-DO list gets really large in the first beta period and you and your team are really excited about some of the options, then you could decide to go for a longer beta cycle. Or maybe you see a clear break point where you could ship the game late Q1 2010 and then have a significant expansion pack 6 months later.
I'm in on ground zero myself and I suspect most of the people interested in the beta are all going to say "yes yes yes yes", but the beta testers aren't the bulk of the final audience and I'm not entirely sure what the impact of a long beta cycle would have on that final audience.
I like the sound of this...but....please dear god don't make us wait till January for beta
-part of me wants to this game to be as deep as possible on release, and part of me says GIMME, GIMME, GIMME NOW!!!!
I think id like to see something like this
--Unless Beta 1 is open beta, then the other is acceptable. I thought the "alpha" was going to be in August.
Actually. Yes. This sounds like a really good idea. I'm not sure I could even get into Elemental with a February release window. Supreme Commander 2 and Command and Conquer 4 just add more to the list of games I want. A summer release though... yes!
So not only will the time allow for a more polished game, but the release window I think is far better in the summer.
In all fairness though with DG, it was the network code that was the issue while the gameplay itself was pretty well received. What DG needed wasn't necessarily a much longer beta, but a set of beta users more representative of the types of network connections DG was going to see in the real world.
I don't want to sidetrack on what was good/bad on the DG release. Brad's done enough of that . My point being that I think the purpose behind Elemental's long beta has a basis in feeling out gameplay issues/enhancements rather than the more narrow focus of feeling out a bug like the networking.
This. Getting 32 people to play one game is not practical, but getting 4-8 to play a game with the balance filed in by decent AI would be great. Aim for 8-12 max humans and 32 total.
For time: there are good points and bad points. Long beta gives testers a chance to really wring the guts out of yoru game, including these month-long mega games. You just can't do that when beta stages are too close together (for reference, in TA beta I averaged about a game per beta version, because I simply couldn't finish big games fast enough).
OTOH, long beta can lead to burn out before launch. I played a ton of Sins in beta, had burned out before it went public.
I fully support the idea of having an extended beta.
I'd say take the time. The issue is most people consider the start of your beta to be the 1.0 retail of most other people's work (I'm not sure if that's praise on you or condemnation on them)
Just be sure when you make the decision, to post it up, post why, then let people know if they preorder, they'll have the game at the same time they would have- just that you're going to be adding content before release so you avoid the vaporware tag (you REALLY need to do this on the beta announcement)
Besides, you could release in Feburary a polished product, then spend the next six months polishing and adding. You guys have enough goodwill, that a few bugs will be forgiven, given your rep for polishing things out. That's a luxury that is as rare as not having financial pressure.
Ultimately- do what you think will make the game best though. That's what ulitmately counts. A late game is always forgiven if it's good. A rushed game can stain a brand forever- look at the KOFXII fiasco.
Well, as most people who preordered already, I may not be totaly objective in that, but...
YES! Please take your time, take as much player inout as you can afford. I guess here we all want Stardock to release the best game it can.Because we waited for a game like that for so long already anyway.And because the more success Stardock has, the more chance there is others will follow in it's steps.
So please do, as long as you feel it's worth it. Just dont forget: we want you guys to make money, 'cause we want to buy more games!
(wow, if I don't get in the alpha with that )
For what it's worth, because I can say with a fair degree of confidence that I won't be pre-ordering Elemental, I believe that an extended beta is a great idea. (I'm not pre-ordering primarily for financial reasons; I'm actually rather fond of this genre.)
In any case, I think that the kind of hand-in-hand development that can occur by truly incorporating the beta testers into the development cycle of the product can only lead to a superior and more polished (and less buggy) finished product. Willythemailboy has a legitimate concern about the beta cycle possibly leading some users to get bored with the title but I suspect that Stardock probably has plenty of ideas for expansion packs such that the game could feel fresh even after a long playtime.
My 2 pence.
As you said, you don't have any financial pressure to put the game out in February, and everyone who wants can join the beta by placing a pre-order. So I'd say, take all the time you want to make the best game possible...
No beta testing for non-preorders/
Most def I've already waited long enough, what's another year? And I think stardock with another year will make this game a truly spectacular experience
PLEASE DO IT. THIS IS THE GREATEST THING THAT YOU COULD POSSIBLY DO FOR THE GAME.
I don't mind doing an extended beta process, though I would sincerely hope that the extended-schedule "Beta 1" was for everyone who's preordered (rather than the current quick, month-long alpha, then the beta for all preorders). I figure it would be, but it's worth putting out there.
Beyond that, my only concern with the extended beta is getting new pre-orders involved. Historically Stardock has only let new pre-orders in at the major beta releases, but there are awfully big gaps between the major releases as scheduled.
This sounds like a sales pitch for "We want longer development time. Please don't be angry.", but since it's done so well.. I'm in. I can't help but to trust you.
I feel con'd. I don't know wheter that's a good thing or a bad thing in this case.Let's just do this!
*air guitar*
Well, "It's done when it's done." is just a fitting sentence.
If you guys indeed can afford it to postpone the official release date, then I'd suggest that we'll make the best game on the market!
That's right. Stardock treats betas as "get the game out to the most dedicated of the fanbase and use their opnions to make a better game". They don't use beta as a demo, which is what it turns into if you open it up to anybody.
I just want to throw out there that the swamp lord pictured above makes me pee my pants with excitement. THAT is exactly the kind of monster I hoped to see in this. I particulary enjoy the twisted mammoth roots used for it's forward limbs, with earthy body covered in moss, grass, and even a willow tree.
I... uhhh..... don't think that's a tree. I think it's the creature's head.
There are two sides to every story but I have to admit this advanced beta idea does have the possibility of some very promising results. I am in general a proponent of refinement in a timely manner. If Stardock isn't really feeling any pressure from the typical sources I say go for it. The original model could always be reinstated if the new idea starts to go sour.
Taking the time to put out a truly amazing game is worth it. If you make sure to really work out the bugs and build the best game you can you will make your money back ten fold.
So to answer your question YES!!!!!
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