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All balance suggestions in this thread are subjective opinions or complaints submitted by posters in this thread.
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Status changes as discussion progresses. Check the update history at the bottom of this post to see which posts have been accounted for.
Read this first! (or at least skim over it)
On the whole the current cast of demigods is quite well balanced. A win is mostly decided by skill and less by the choice of your avatar.
Admittedly some builds seem downright overpowering - immortal Sednas for instance - but even those builds can be cracked ... and they usually have a harder time in other aspects of the game, like getting to the point where they are finally awe-inspiring.
I want to know what the experienced players think about the current state of balance (sorry newbs, but getting trashed by tower rooks and not having a clue how to beat them doesn't make rooks overpowered).
Also, I'm not looking for single-skill complaints - everyone knows by now that QoT's Tribute skill sucks (at level 15 at least) - but rather how the overall performance of a demigod skilling strategy compares to the rest of the game.
For example: Regulus has at least three skilling strategies one can pursue: Snipe, Mines, Angelic Fury.* Clever minelayers are quite feared for their incredible burst damage and can easily dominate careless players but they can be comfortably countered by competent generals. Strong build but not everpowering. * Snipers deliver unexpected kills from a great distance, frustrating many players that fall victim to him. Can't really be countered, but the skill depends on the target having low health in the first place which means that the snipes rely on the performance on your teammates or the carelessness of the opponent. * Angelic Fury - er, I played that in the beginning. Are there good builds out there?
Anyway, Regulus has several main paths he can pursue, several pretty strong ones but not so strong that he can't be beaten without the need of a balance patch. But are some of his skills so weak that they will never get picked at all? If so, how should the change happen?
Please post your opinions and suggestions and I'll do my best to summarize the general consensus (btw, the initial QoT summary is solely my perception of her. Additional opinions welcome).
Lord Erebus
Build Strategies:
Summary:
Balance Suggestions:
Oak
Queen of Thorns
Build strategies:
QoT fares bad with every build against every Demigod. Sure, at the beginning she has great staying power, comparable to tower rooks. But she will barely ever land a kill. Her dps and burst damage are low. Popping into open form for spikes/spike wave/uproot consumes much time. Theoretically a combo of ground spikes, spike wave and mulch could deal heavy burst damage, but the delay between form switching makes that unfeasable.
She has only two feasible ways of playing her: Support and Siege.
Balancing Suggestions:
Regulus
Rook
Sedna
Passive and active self-healing skills can make Sedna nearly immortal. Her Pounce deals good damage and doubles as an interrupt. Silence interrupts, too, and prevents skill usage alltogether for some time in a large area. One of the strongest - if not the strongest - demigods around when played correctly. In fact, her healing builds are so strong that every other build of hers that isn't a variation of that becomes obsolete.
Torch Bearer
Unclean Beast
ITEMS
Update history:
Minion build, low damage output? lol dude, minion QoT does way more damage than any other build, you can easily keep up with the damage of other DG's.
QoT just needs some good lategame skill, intead of the tribute thingy there should be something that increases shambler damage more.
Almost forgot, other suggestions:
Regulus "Dead Eye" Skill (at the end of snipe tree), either increase %chance or stun time.
UB Bestial Wrath cast time should be reduced (i think its bugged anyway, since the cast and the animation are not synchronized)
Buff Sednas Yetis, seriously they suck ass.
Thats all for now, I might add more later.
<Oak opinions>
Looking at Oaks skilltree, half of it is extremely useful. Raise Dead, Pentinence, Shield and Surge of Faith are all skills that can be maxed out depending on which build you're going for, and very useful when doing so.
The other half though (not counting Morale), Last Stand, Soul Power, Soul frenzy and Divine Justice, aren't quite so hot.
Soul Power
One point into this skill is very well worth it if you're getting minions, preferably early on so you also can take advantage of the passive bonus to the fullest. But getting level 2 and 3 is a lot harder to justify, since you will most likely need those point for other, more prominent skills during the mid-level game. Most builds I've seen that fills up SP does so after level 15, when there's little else to start speccing, and that is also what I do. The skill is not a tide-turner, but rather something you put points into when a] It's too late to start focusing on other skills, or b] when you're ahead so much that you just want a little extra damage to pile it on. Regardless, level 2 and 3 cannot compete with Shield, pentinence and Surge round level 5-8, which is when you get them.
Suggestions: Increase the Spirit bonus on level 2 and 3. There's really little else I'd want from this skill mid- to late game.
Divine Justice
Like Soul Power, putting one point into this can very well be worth it, and give you a little extra staying power if you manage to hold a lane and farm it while the opponent is running for the crystal. But just like SP, this skill really isn't something you'll spec when you're having troubles beating the opponent. While level 2 and 3 gives you a very nice bonus (level 3 almost makes lv3 Surge of faith free if you pop it in the middle of a creep swarm), it's not a tide turner, but rather something you can use when there's no need for anything else.
Suggestions: Honestly, I don't know. There's nothing ineherently bad about the skill itself, and buffing the heal would probably leave it OP, since Oak isn't really supposed to be a healer (not to mention that it also heals your allies). I just find that level 2 and 3 has issues competing with the good skills, during the time when your choice of skills are important.
Rally
Divine Justice level 4. To be honest, I can't really recall more than 5-6 occations when I had to risk death in order to kill an enemy, and thay all happen waaaaaaay before level 15. Thus I've never gotten to use this skill.
Last Stand
The start-up animation is too long. Period. If Oak didn't go down, but instead simply caught fire (or something) and proceeded to bash the opponent, this skill could actually be useful in even encounters, as well as putting pressure on the opponent. As it is now, even Oak himself has no trouble out-running a LS Oak once he's dead. Unless you have 1% HP left, Last Stand is nothing to fear in 1v1, and 2v2+, you'd be running either way.
Suggestions: Skip the fall-then-rise animation, and give Oak a damage buff depending on the number of minions he had when he died (level 1). Level 2, make Oak give any nearby allies a temporary bonus (ala SoF, without the dmg) when he dies. Also, remove the bonus (both for him and allies) when hitting buildings, to avoid fortress-exploits and similar multi-Oak strats.
The problem with these skills isn't that they're plain bad (ok, I think Last Stand sucks), just overshadowed by the rest of the cast. It's a bit tricky to suggest improvements since it could leave Oak OP, but I cannot deny that whenever I put points into my tree, it goes in this order:
</Oak opinions>
I have to disagree. Every single skill of oak is very good and Oak is the last DG that would need anything changed on his skills.
Soul power isn't good? you gotta be kidding dude, i like to mow you down with 500dmg per hit some time.
QoT balancing suggestions
fix summon shambler level 1, reduce its mana cost to 200
buff uproot, allow it to reduce the damage the tower does over the duration(-10,-20,-30,-40)
Reg balancing suggestions
buff dead eye, 1 second stun 100% of the time
Rook balancing suggestions
give structural transfer more utility.
either:
increase his movement speed slightly 5.6
Oak balancing suggestions
shield should work like description, level 1/2 shield shouldnt be able to remove debuffs(spit)
Sedna balancing suggestions
buff yetis
reduce lvl 1 silence cost slightly(750 mana cost)
Lord erebus balancing suggestions
nerf coven slightly(4/6/8 minions)
reduce health gain slightly on conversion aura(100,200,300)
put a max duration on mist
reduce range slightly on batswarm lvl 2/3 (25 range)
TB balancing suggestions
increase buff duration slightly when switching between fire and ice modes
vary the radius of circle of fire as it levels
make deep freeze instant cast instead of 0.1 sec
I'm pretty sure you can do almost that with just 1 point into SP. The damage difference between SP1 and SP3 (assuming you have 9 spirits out) is just 40. One point into SP or three, you still get the full spirit bonus. It's just a passive +20 dmg for level 2 and 3.
Hence why 1 point into SP is indeed very good, and why it is the only non-sucking skill (aka LS) that I actually wanted a buff for lv2-3.
Also, reading is fundamental:
Maybe I can rephrase that. To my (and many others') experience Oak minion builds are feared because spirits fly and can easily gang up on other Demigods and Erebus minion builds are loathed because nightwalkers can get incredibly tough and deal heavy damage. I haven't heard of any particular dangerous Sedna or QoT minion builds, which lead me to my assertion. I'll rephrase it to effective damage output, though.
Tribute could be useful if it was available earlier. But another boost to shamblers at the end of the Entourage tree might be nice, too. Perhaps increase the range of Shamblers attack? Or the width of their attack's AoE? Simply increasing damage sounds ... too conventional.
Has anyone ever tried and observed the effectiveness of that skill? I didn't, so I can only assume it sucks judging from it's description.
Does the current implementation render this skill useless or overpowered?
Are Yeti builds so bad that they offer no advantage at all? Or are there situations/build-item-configurations where they are effective?
Yes, probably the single worst skill in the game, no amount of buff will fix them much except first removing their collision, because they collide with EVERYTHING and they're so big, they just spend all their time spinning in circles because they can't fit past a couple of creeps.
I don't really see a complaint here, apart from flavor.
There I can disagree. This skill when combined with Last Stand makes all-out attacks more feasible than with any other demigod.
I think the skill is good as it is. For one, it's kinda funny how the enemy suddenly chickens after killing Oak. And attacking buildings is a good use of his last few seconds of action. After all, this short burst of damage is paid for with Oak's life.
I felt I had to directly answer that to justify the colorings of your criticisms in the original post.
Oak is really balanced, I like where hes at right now. He's got a fine list of skills which all synergize with eachother, and I already have trouble figuring out what order to get things in.
The only critical balance change we need is some nerf to Horn and either minion given xp or a minion leash radius, or some mechanic to make sure people can't repeatedly rush your citadel with minions until its dead.
It does work as intended. It makes you immune to damage. Hence cancelling spit.
It does remove other things though, like Speed debuffs (assuming he got them before popping it).
I'd love to see Uproot and Structural Transfer stun buildings. I've suggested this before. THe basic idea is that while you are using one of these powers on a building it doesn't attack.
QoT would be fine if shamblers weren't so expensive skill point wise. If you're going to allow mitigation on QoT shield, you should at least make it cost skill point(s). That could be her level 15 skill even.
The horn bug needs to be fixed and its effective range capped to something similar to the radius of Oak's Soul Ward.
Leave Oak alone (with the exception of Last Stand bonus not applying to buildings).
Structural Transfer healing buildings would be nice. Otherwise the skill is second rate.
The trouble with a Senna Full minion build is that it takes too long to ramp up. Playing Oak of Erebus full minion is effective starting at level 5. Full Minion Senna only starts getting good at 10 or 15. If a Yeti was equivalent to 1.5 or 2 nightcrawlers then they might be more interesting.
One of the main problems with Senna and Queen special minions is that they cost so much mana and are about at squishy as Nightcrawlers and Spirits.
Actually I think Soul Power 2 and 3 are fine. I use them all the time. Adding 20 points of auto attack damage to a general and Oak specifically is significant. If it was any more powerful it would be stepping on the toes of assassins when it comes to auto attack damage.
Currently I think the most abusive thing is the Horn of Battle Minion citadel rush but I don't see much of that in Pantheon and Skirmish.
I dunno, it's not broken or anything as it is right now. Lowering the bonus on early levels would be more like a nerf.
Yeah, Dj is probably my favourite skill. I just love watching all those green and blue numbers pop up. It's a nice bonus when using SoF, but little more than that, and certainly not anyones first choice in a game where you're having troubles fighting other DGs.
You could argue that DJ is simply meant for improving farming, but Oak doesn't really have any specific issues with that as it is right now. It's nice to get a few chunks of HP, but I'd love to able to skip early points into SP/Pent/Shield/Spirits in favor of DJ, but as it is right now, DJ gets excess points, and nothing else.
I tend to bash on minions and creeps when having high DJ, despite the annoying DGs around me.
I usually sick my minions and on DGs, stuff a Penitence down their throats and continue to farm creeps for health. I kinda like how this skill effects playing style and I think it can stay exactly as it is now, Rally included.
QoT:
jeez, nobody's complained about the High Priests+Healing Wind bug yet? this is the one where the level 3 Idol Summoned Priests heal for 30% of max health if under the effect of Healing Wind rank 2.
im gonna go on the record with that one, its a bug resulting from a typo in the LUA files. its really overpowered. i use it and abuse because i can, but its definitely unfair.
Really the game is pretty well balanced as it is so you dont need to do too much.
I'd say:
Fix Sedna High Priests bug (effectively a Sedna nerf)
Slightly nerf Erebus minion build. Assassin build is fine.
Buff QoT
Fix TB auto attack bug
also gonna complain about Torchbearer's Fire mode auto-attack. as far as I know its the only auto-attack in the game that cannot be used while moving. this makes it nearly impossible for Fire TB to effective pursue enemy DG's and greatly reduces the killing power of Fire builds.
i can only assume this is a bug since it seems like such unexpected and atypical behavior. i'd like to see it changed in order to introduce more variety into TB builds, which are currently pretty heavily slanted in favor of Ice mode.
Well two things, firstly I think remember reading somewhere that the animations for fire-TB-attack-while-moving don't even exist atm. its not like they're in there but accidently inactivated. They're just not there, which kind of implies that this might have been intended. Second of all fire TB with enough speed can chase and repeatedly fireball, which is effective in lieu of attack-while-moving.
You don't need to nerf the Erebus minions if you fix the horn.
To be honest, I think oak is pretty much the best balanced DG right now. A variety of play styles, a lot of interesting options, and the ability to be strong if played fairly well.
I'd say the two areas needing the most attention are QoT, Sedna, and UB. I do not have experience with strong Erebus minions so I won't comment on it.
QoT: Fundamental problem is that she relies on Bramble Shield, and that it takes too many skill points to use her Minions effectively. This is mainly due to her minion effecting skills doing nothing on their own.
Suggestions to make her better:
Unclean beast is currently the DG with the greatest win percentage by a good long way, I think we just need to tone down a few of his effects.
I think those two slight changes should be enough to tone down his strength to within the realm of everyone else, especially at level 5, where spit/grasp/spit will be significantly weaker.
Sedna is also a high win% DG, and I think will become increasingly more prevalent in the near future as people start getting the hang of playing her. Even without the High Priest bug, her improved healing wind is an extremely efficient healing ability. Bishops healing 22% is going to still feel very strong, as will monks healing 15% right when she turns level 5.
The autoattack while in fire mode needs to fixed urgently beacuse makes alot of possible builds (hybrid builds) unplayable. follow my line of thought:
fire tb cannot autoattack while moving -> you effectivly cant chase a running demigod while in fire mode -> beacuse you can't chase in fire mode, and switching modes takes time (espically when moving beacuse when you change you stop moving) you need to be in ice mode to begin the chase, which causes you to prefer to spend most of your time in ice -> since you spend must of your time in ice, fire aura becomes useless (it's nice to have higher movement speed and attack rate, but it dosen't really help if u can't attack), this means any viable hybrid build contains permafrost and fire aura is basicly worthless.
once you fix that bug alot of new possible builds become viable beacuse you can take fire aura and also mix some other fire skills (since you plan on staying in fire mode mostly anyway). right now the only build for TB are: full ice, full fire (which sucks beacuse of the bug but is still somewhat playable), rain of ice + permafrost + frost nova + fireball hybrid, and rain of ice + permafrost + fireball + fire nova (but the previous hybrid is usually better)
i would really like to try hybrid builds that take fire aura but in the current buggy situation it's just not worth it.
another issue that could help make other hybrid builds more playable is reducing the time it takes to switch from ice to fire. currently it takes alot longer to switch from ice to fire then it takes to switch from fire to ice, which means you usually prefer to go into battle in fire, use fire spells, then switch to ice and stay there since switching back is too long, which is another reason why you spend most of your time in ice. Is there any reason why switching to fire takes so long anyway??
I agree, right now taking anything behind foul grasp 1 is a waste of skill points. maybe also increase the amount of health drained for higher levels of fould graps.
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