Recently played some great games with a group of skilled players. They were close, both hit rank 10 at the same time, both sides had very few deaths. Both sides got giants within seconds of each other. Both bases getting hit between pushes.
So what action shifts the battle drasticly? A Flag lock. A stupid 250g item so powerful and so mighty that once one side gets a portal locked, it is all over. The other team must defend their base for the 45 seconds until the lock goes away. It pushes the sway of the battle so much that you might as well give up at that point.
It is always the same too. Someone walks right through the base, ignoring towers, etc. Gets the flag, and locks it. Game over.
It is the winning move. No counter, nothing you can do.
Pay attention to your portals, always keep a teleport scroll and a lock in your inventory, lock them yourself before someone else gets them. They are the key.
When you are facing a matched opponent, the goal of the end game becomes flag locks. Nothing else.
Well I know its the best way to get them off the citadel mob, thats part of my point. When you have all the demigods in one area, bashing on a citadel, and a ton of very powerful creeps theres a huge advantage. Giving yourself even more creeps from their portals, ups that quite a bit further (obviously). The unlockable idea was intended to have a babysit effect. Is it fair that your team crushing the citadel can go gank a flag, lock it, then return to bashing on it in the center, and slaying enemy demigods, while they have to divide their attention in a match that they already have momentum stacked against em? It would force them to cat and mouse the flag, and keep an equal attention focus on both tasks, without either side having a Demigod number advantage at the citadel front.
I also don't agree with the point about the health crystal. I can't think of any map where you can actually hit a good portion of the creeps while still on the crystal. And I usually find that at that point in the game, all the added creep damage and one stun and focused dps from your team pretty much kills, or forces those DG to continually retreat to those crystals, moving them from the front.
I've actually only came back from a citadel crunch once. Well came back and won. But even if you shift the tide, those losses always end with the same way, a portal being capped n locked. I'm not sure it would really drag out the game. I mean, have any of you come back from that? The time I had a match where we did come back from a cita crunch and back and forth sorta game and won, was pretty epic feeling. I think that sorta play should be allowed, and encouraged. Realistically, the match should depend upon the skill of the players, not the status and number of the creeps, right?
I like the thought about the non attacking structure. That would give an extra line of defense, but when its gone, youd suffer the same problems and the same arguments over flag locks. I just don't think its fair for creep numbers to be such an advantage like that. Upgrades, protecting creeps, trying to amass them on it, sure, thats strategy and takes quite a bit of effort. But we all know how easy it is to eventually gank a portal, and how an even match, where you were fighting great opponents suddenly becomes an easy slaughter. I guess I do see your point about dragging it out, after all. Playing hard against someone can get pretty tiresome.
I just think flag locks should be focused around Warscore advantage, and not reinforcement portals. I believe thats why they were included, and that they shouldn't really be the asset they are end game. 250g for an item that at the crucial moment ends up being better than Ash, All Fathers, and anything else you could've stacked. I just don't think thats their intended use.
EDIT: Forgots, the idea of an unlock is also very doable. But then it gets to a point where Flag Locks are pointless in the first place. I think some boundaries on what they could be used on are better all around. The concept of item/counter-item breeds into dangerous territories, making a game even more item dependent as opposed to skill dependent. I think thats why all the 'game breaking' items have such insanely high costs and a special shop, right?
I think thats why all the 'game breaking' items have such insanely high costs and a special shop, right?
So...put flag locks at the artifact shop under consumables?
Giants don't make it to your citadel all on their own. Well, I suppose they do if you don't have any giants of your own, but thats what warscore advantage is supposed to do. Anyways, if you both have giants, neither side's creep waves can make it to the cit unless one team pushes their waves better. So if one team has giants on the other team's citadel, its because they earned it. If that allows them to now go after your portals since you have to defend your citadel, they've earned that too. In all cases the team that played better is winning (with very little help from locks, I might add) which is exactly whats supposed to happen.
I think what you're saying is "the team that plays better should win." If so then I agree with you, but will remind you that pushing creep waves and managing portals is part of playing well, particularly late game.
I think I've said it about 3 times now: high level end games are decided by dead DGs, not locked portals.
Low level games are decided by dead DGs. High level games are decided by map control, which includes portal locks. You can ignore creep waves if you want in the early game. You cannot ignore creep waves when giants are lumbering toward your citadel. If you don't deal with them, they start to stack up and cause problems. If you get portal locked, you have to deal with it. And while you are dealing with it, the rest of the map goes to the other team. That includes health flags, gold flags, etc. Those add up to big advantages.
Portal locks are instrumental to map control. I like the concept of portal locks, but the timers should be changed so that one person cannot keep a flag perma locked. You should not be able to port in and lock a flag before the other team has the chance to turn the flag. That means either increasing the time that it takes to lock a portal (so that it can be interrupted), or changing the cooldown times on the capture lock and portal scroll. I'd favor increasing the time it takes to lock, so that it can be interrupted better.
Add a lock immunity to prevent repeated locks on the same flag? Give the teams 15 seconds to fight over it or something.
High level games are low scoring throughout the early and middle game, so that time period is usually a struggle for war rank, and experience - which are obtained by map control. It is quite possible to win games by completely dominating the map and beating the other team to rank 10 by a wide margin. In that case yes, the game was decided by map control.
However, in the case that both teams have giants on the field (which is afaik the scenario that we've been considering) then map control (specifically portal control) does not decide the game. Dead DGs do, and they become more common amidst the escalating lethality of the late game.
Why? Because against a good team you cannot get their portal except over their dead bodies.
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