Thanks to a post in another topic by Woppin, I realized that Cataract, while good, is not entirely balanced. The HP flag is generally better than the Mana flag. That is not a problem; it's in the middle, both people can fight over it, etc. But then you realize that whoever controls the HP lane also gets different flags from the enemies area on that side.
If you are the Forces of Light, by controlling and pushing the HP lane, you get the celerity flag. That's a good flag. But if you are the forces of Darkness, by pushing the lane you get the enemies gold flag, which is, in most situations, a better flag; a small cooldown decrease is no match for being outgeared.
My proposal to fix this is simple: Make the map symmetric. The HP lane has both sides Celerity flags, and the MP lane has both sides gold flags (so the MP lane actually has some use compared to the HP lane).
Ummm,... no.
Correct me If I'm wrong but it appears that the dark side starts farther from the item store. This results in the light side getting to the center flag quicker.
Why, exactly? Why is it better for the map to give an asymmetric advantage to one side instead of giving each side the same advantage?
Wow, I was all ready to come in here and troll you about how cataract is perfect but you actually make a good point. I've thought about this myself, all the maps really should be completely symmetric with regards to flags. It's really obvious with exile, where one crystal gives +15 hp/s and the other gives +15 mana/s.
Not to mention you can get the gold flag easily without getting in tower range, but I've never managed to get the celerity flag whilst being out of tower range, never seen anyone else do it either.
usually people like to support there ideas, i didnt expect this from you trigeminal
i find it a bit unfair having different flags for each side, but i'd have to go play the map again to check how it currently is
Yeah, I noticed that once as well. It definitely seems odd; if the Celerity flags are in tower range, the Dark side has an even bigger advantage.
Also, I have no problem with the game being asymmetric with regards to neutral flags, but the game should be completely symmetric with regards to flags you start with.
Sorry, here is the full response:
Umm,... no. It is my impression this is the way it is on all the maps. I will try to take a look at the other maps, but from my knowledge they always work this way. This is so that no matter what side you start on (light or dark) the back non-neutral flags will stay in the same position. I thought this was intentional. So in other words, because of this asymetric setup if you are in custom the celerity flag of your opponent will always be on the right and yours will always be on the left. The only ones that change position are the nuetral outside flags (non-center).
Also changing this allows you to really protect you celerity flag while pushing on theirs instead of making the choice to defend your celerity flag and push their gold or defend your gold while push on the celerity.
I absolutely agree with the OP. No map should ever have a hint of imbalance.
Your comment is completely irrelevant. The more important flag, IE the HP flag, opens up a good flag you can get with no danger (gold) for darkness, and a not quite as good flag that you have to be in the range of two towers to capture for light. It doesn't matter that, aesthetically, it's always "X flag on the left, Y flag on the right" or that you have to choose what to push; the dark side gets a nearly always superior flag by controlling the nearly always superior lane, while the light side has to pick whether they want a good flag now or a good flag later. It's imbalanced, and no amount of talk of how it changes the aesthetics of the game or how it forces the Light team to make hard decisions will change that. The fact is, the Light team is in a bind, while the Dark team has an easy decision: Do we take a bad flag to have a chance to take another while being shot, or take a good flag so we can take another without being shot?
Boo.The only thing I wish would happen with Cat is two more towers next to the portals. They are so freakin undefended and as soon as those first two towers drop, that side is a lost cause and anyone can stroll in.
I know it will eventually get like that anyway, but I feel two more towers would stop it from being so bloody easy.
And for christ's sake, why don't we get archer towers on that side? teh fux
So you also hate the idea of making the map balanced?
Whole lot of 'wah' for no reason.
But the tower situation is gay.
So the map being unbalanced is "no reason"...
But the fact the map doesn't have towers somewhere that is already defended by multiple towers is enough to make you into a bigot?
is a hp flag really better than a mana flag? I think it depends a lot on your and your enemies team and the skill and item build you do. Imagine a situation where you are sedna have the +15% flag and are on 3000 hp, so +15% gives you 450 hp and just lets assume that you have not enough mana to cast heal in a situation where it would have been very useful, while with the mana flag you would have been able to. The HP flag is a passive bonus which is always useful but can't be used to help allies or hurt enemies, while the mana flag only is of use if you wouldn't have mana in a specific situation anyways but then the bonus you get (+1 or +2 spells) is immense.
The only thing I don't like about cataract is that you can cap the portal flag and gold mine flag at the same time when you stand right in the middle between them
Nope.
Quit crying.
So I'm crying about a legitimate imbalance, but again, when you want more towers to defend the portals despite already having multiple towers on the path to them, it gives you reason to cry and be a bigot? Wow.
The HP flag is always better; the extra HP pretty much always beats the extra mana, especially because most builds are limited on cooldown times and not mana costs. Plus, extra HP is always useful, while extra mana is useless for some builds (Ooze UB) and may or may not even give you an extra cast.
Yep.
[e digicons]:waaaa:[/e]
I'm glad we agree that you are a crybaby and a bigot, then.
lawl
I agree; Teseer you are coming off as a dumbass. TS has a legit point that the map favors forces of darkness. You may not notice this because you werent smart enough to realize the importance of this or on cataract you dont play a lane pushing character like rook.
if his point angers you just ignore this thread, no need to make a post crying with the sole purpose of accusing someone else of making a post with crying it. just asinine, and im seeing this happening a lot.
also the point about being able to capture one of the side flags without getting tower zapped for one team but not the other is also somehting to look into. imo real easy thing to fix if they get around to it, just make it the same for both teams.
otherwise if this game ever develops real competive team play both teams will be fighting over who gets to be forces of darkness
IMO it's better by far. Mana is helpful during the early game, but once everyon has Vlemish Faceguards it's pretty minor.
I love the mana flag as the TB. Mid-Late game it helps a LOT. I dont get many mana items, so the extra mana goes a LONG way.
And the post didnt anger me, his replies to me were lawls, so I went for my own lawls.
And I could care less how I come across, it's a forum.
Man teseer makes me want a thumbs down button.
Anyway yes it is a slight imbalance, enough to be worth mentioning. Really though among the list of changes that should be enacted this one is probably middle road. Some towers being in range of the gold mine flags, and towers being in range of portal flags, are much higher on the list. Being able to pull the mobs as they pass through central without being zapped by towers should probably also be fixed, as it lets classes like tower rooks gaurd the XP flag AND farm two lanes worth of xp (All without ever even getting a warning zap).
It's still probably the most even map they've made though.
much more in depth
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