There are so many complainers asking for a panel to see your allies health/mana, and your enemies items. THIS SHOULD NOT BE IN THE GAME, THIS WILL MAKE IT EASY MODE.
Reason #1: This will eliminate the already small amount of communication between teammates in this game. I've played some games with my team on Vent, and very little needed to be said to dominate the other team, most of the time it was "I've low mana, or "watch out, X, this enemy is coming for you.", or "this enemy has low health". In games without vent, most of the things people type are similar to these. An example I use is if someone has a Sedna for a teammate, the Sedna player should have to take the couple of seconds to type out "i've low mana" to let them know they should not be expecting a Heal any time soon if they get damaged.
Reason #2: The game already has barely any micro-managing going on. If you're an assassin micro is practically non-existent. If you're a general, there are few times you need to: getting your minions to set off Reg's mines, getting your gunners to attack towers, and harassing someone with spirits. Beyond that there's almost nothing. If you look at pro RTS players, their mouse is constantly moving. They're monitoring everything they can: how close a certain building is to completion, how many units are still in a queue and things like that. People in this game should have to at least move their mouse over an ally to see their health, doesn't matter if they're in a cluster, you can just press CTRL to target only demigods.
Reason #3: This will make people lazier when they can just glance at the panel without bothering to type anything to let their teammates know they're at low mana, and eliminate the need of people looking at the item list to come up with their own strategies when they can just copy the items of someone who pwned them.
Reason #4: Compared to others, this game is very easy to master. Knowing is half the battle. Literally. If you have enough experience to know that the scaled helm is better than the plate visor, you're already at a considerable advantage over someone who might not, even if you have equal skill level, micro-skills, memory, reflex etc.. A panel will make it even easier, making it practically a joke.
Think of other games. I haven't played Warcraft 3 in a while, but as far as I remember, allied heroes were not shown in the side panel, if you had a Paladin with Holy Light or something, you had to mouse over allies to see their health/mana. If they died, you got a message but that was about it. Few games let you see your teammate's mana. In many FPS, you need to mouse over an ally to see their health too.
I don't understand - why? Other games (Dota) do this and it's worked wonderfully for years upon years. In normal Wacraft 3 you can see what items the enemy hero is packing. (So you know if they can TP or have a potion or what have you)
It doesn't change balance - things become a bit more strategic and a bit less tactical. Is that a problem? I say no.
I dont see it as a problem, but I also dont see not knowing as a problem. If anything added uncertainty brings a guessing game element, wher you have to try and second guess your opponents. IMHO, Thats kind of more fun than memorizing a list of items and their logical counters and brings out the people with flare and guts from the people who just spent too long on gamefaqs/ the forums.
More tedious busy-work plz. Thx!
Could we also make sure to not fix the ability targeting bugs, by the way? Being able to work around them with frantic but skillful move-clicking helps separate the pros from the n00bs.
Wow...this is just plain stupid. All of these things would only make the game more managable and add depth to the gameplay. It seems you're just afraid of noobs getting better at the game and giving you competition. The only thing I agree with even a little bit is the part about seeing enemy items, and even that is debatable.
*Sigh*, always late.
Oh, man... I'm sorry, but I just don't agree with anything in the OP.
There's nothing wrong with streamlining the way information is delivered - it's much more efficient AND reliable to glance at a bar indicating how your allies are doing rather than waiting on them to tell you, or worse, RELYING on them to tell you. I'd much rather know that my Sedna ally is low on mana by being able to glance at their mana bar than hoping to the All Father that she lets me know before my a$$ is in the fire.
Communication is definitely an important part of the game, but being able to type less will allow us to focus more on playing the game instead of communicating information that could be delivered so much more effectively by a simple visual aid.
The only thing I agree with the OP is the enemy mana and items should not be displayed. In a game based on counters such as Demigod, perfect information would be destroy the purpose of the game. I would certainly stop playing it.
However, I do agree that you should be able to look at your team's health and mana, especially mana considering that people would rely on Sedna to heal or Reg to snipe. Typing "oom" constantly is a bit of a bitch.
Hmm, in the spirit of more micromanagement, how about making it so you have to be facing the target in order to target them in the first place? Having the game auto turn your character around when you select a target is just too noob and easy.
/sarcasm [e digicons]*_*[/e]
LOL EPIC FAIL. i stopped reading after this sentence.
i thought this thread was going to be constructive, maybe about making afew spells harder to use or sumthing(which i agree with).
im very disappointed.
I think adding in being able to see enemy items and mana would be stupid. There is no point to that. This isnt fucking DOTA stop fucking saying "well in Dota you can BLAH BLAH BLAH" This is totally unrelated. I don't want people to see what Im using, so I don't give a fucking holy hell about seeing their items. Stop trying to clone Defence of the Gayncients. If i could ping everyone upside the head with an aluminium baseball bat that wanted Dota bullshit in this game i would be just so happy.
I also think the enemy shouldnt see the Mana Bar or your items... For all Dota Players, demigod istn dota we dont need such kind of shit...Some new Demigods would be cool and not such a shit...
I hope Stardock dont include that.
I think we should regress to a Kings Quest style of UI, where you have to type out everything you want your DG to do, this would separate the pros from the noobs. We should also remove all the chat options, so more people use vent.
Flawed logic is really quite fun, isn't it?
Well, to be honest I really don't see a *need* for a display showing ally health and mana. Only sedna would use it, and Sedna does not always play support, so it just feels like fluff. I am not against it though.
Showing enemy items/mana on the other hand, I am firmly against. For one, I feel that learning item builds, reserching on the forums etc. is simply part of the game, and to a small extent a part of your skill. To simply have any joe blow see my item build feels cheap.
I also would NOT want people to judge thier attacks based on whether or not I can respond because I have no mana left or not attack me because I have a health pot. I think not knowing leads people to actually fight more, and there's some excitement in that.
I don't wanna see DG become a tower hugging game because people are afraid to engage.
Vyper, The OP is taking comments out of context, there has never been a suggestion to mod in the ability to see your enemies items. Bman's mod doesnt do it, neither does the other one. The only mention of it is in the threads about those mods where people ask if they can do it, and the answer was a firm no, that data is not accessable by the UI elements irrc.
It will really help if you know that your ally has low mana or not becouse then you know if you should support or not. Adding the bar will help to do this and don't say that it makes it easier it just adds more strategy then taking a random guess. Most of the players never chat either
Yea, I wasn't trying to say Bman was intending to release an enemy item mod, I was merely commenting on it because it has been asked for in the past and was relevant to the discussion at hand.
Like I said previously, I am not agaisnt the ally health/mana bar either. I just don't see it as particularly useful atm, but who knows, it might lead to new gameplay options once it is/was implemented.
STOP CRYING LIKE LITTLE BABIES
seriously this is so ignorant its not even funny. IF THIS FUNCTION IS IMPLEMENTED IN THE GAME U DONT HAVE TO USE IT.
having this information in the game adds another level of strategic depth.
"he has a potion which he is probably going to use.. if i interrupt it hes screwed"
"erebus has no more mana, he cant use bite/mist on me now haha! eat my spit, counter that now sucker!"
"he is regening with his HoL, maybe i should attack him with one of my spirit minions."
"sedna has no mana for heal, chase him down into those towers"
there are endless amounts of examples.
if you are fine running around like a headless chook in a game going CLICK CLICK CLICK DER DER DER, thats fine by me. i will happily OWN YOU any day and make use of the "seeing enemy items/mana" function.
actually I think seeing enemy mana and/or items *removes* strategy. Right now there is a big game of trying to outthink your opponent going on. Do you continue to press the attack b/c you think he is low on mana? Do you think he's about to use a heal and so you use your interrupt? Do you fake being out of mana and run a bit to draw the enemy into a gankfest? I bluff all the time. I have no mana but my health is full and I act aggressive and many times I am able to hold the lane against another DG that might be a little low at the moment. If you can see what everyone has then it will become a big game of standoff.
How? It adds strategy because you might (just might) be able to buy certain items that actually counter what your opponent is doing. If they're going all damage and no attack speed you could get attack speed reducing items. If they're going all attack speed there's a thorns item or damage debuff items.
Yes Demigod doesn't have that many items (yet) and most aren't very good and as such can't really counter anything (like the vast amount of items in Dota can), but the theory is there.
Guessing games are not strategy. You get a little bit less tacticalness, but I'm more than fine with that.
Because Dota is so popular because it did HORRIBLE SHIT like this. Nonsense, these things have worked completely fine for years. You should be trying to embrace as many good features of Dota as possible, not shunning them just to differentiate yourself.
I agree with Bman. With the removal of HoL from the item shop mana bluffing will become even more important since people won't be able to just refuel in a flash and head back into the fray. If people can see what you've got, as Bman says, there's going to be ridiculous hiding at towers and constant running away from characters with good items. It will be a massive pain to try to get a kill after just buying new items because not only will you need to best the enemy in combat (not always a given) you will need to appear out of the fog and gank them before they notice you just bought mage slayer/slayers wraps/whatever.
I don't think this is a positive step gameplay wise, we want more fighting and more kills/deaths because that is the most interesting part of the game. Grinding creeps is not an especially interesting mechanic, and although harassing is essential, I'd prefer it if it wasn't the only contact the two teams had.
I can see that it introduces the ability to counter an enemy's strategy, but why do you need to see their items to do this? Can't you just fight them and figure it out? You can certainly tell if they're health stacking, you can guess how much mana based on when they retreat with high health, you can see how much damage when they hit you. Activatable abilities are even more obvious. The only stuff that's difficult to see is stuff like regen and minion boosts. I like that people don't know that my speed is 6.9. They have to estimate whether their speed of 6.8 is enough to outrun me. When they fail, they might die, but they don't make the same mistake again. If they can see my speed is 6.9, they arent going to come out very far because they know they'll get hunted down if things turn sour.
No, you can't. You don't know how many potions they have, or what their armor is, or how much mana is being added by their items.
Or as you point out, their movespeed. This is so so important in Demigod, far more than it was in Dota due to most maps being wide open and the inability to shake a pursuer who can attack while moving.
Uh yah i'm just going to have to agree with most of what people are saying here. I don't want to see your items either. I don't think it makes it better. I know what my enemy is doing when I fight them. Simple as that. If you can't figure that stuff out its your problem. I also really enjoy the free kill I get when I counter there srategy but they haven't realised it yet.
On the fip side I also don't mind it when I run in like a bad ass and the oppenent is regening so fast its scary. I don't mind getting a little greedy and then my oppenent pops off a good potion and kills me. Shit while I'm dead I just say "nice man" and move along. I think having everything hidden is a great plus. Its just like playing poker. You bluff, you run, and you just plain try to outstrategise.
If your playing an RTS just removing the ablity to scope out the fog with scout units you typically don't know what the enemy is doing either. Are they using air units? Tanks? Don't know... so you fight for a minute... go shit they got tanks... and build tank counters. I don't know why you can't accept that DoTA does what it does and Demigod does it differently. I can see adopting good things from good games and while I agree I don't think seeing everything that your enemy has equipped has to be one of them.
Poker is not nearly as strategic as something like Chess or Go. Why? Because you know everything that's going on.
But if you're good you DO know what they're doing - you can scout them and see the tanks. That's when you build the tank counters before they even build all their tanks. That's outthinking your opponent. You can't scout anything of value in Demigod.
I don't know why you think different is automatically better. Dota did so many things right - which is why it's such an amazing success.
LoL is already going to be a DotA clone, Demi shouldn't be.
[e digicons]:fox:[/e]
I kinda agree with this. Seeing everything that your allies have is great, the enemy not so much. An accurate health bar/Level is all that is neccessary.
So I guess in the end it doesn't really make it worse or better...just different. For me enemies gear being secret is exciting. Having to figuring out what they have by watching their tactics. Perhaps it is something that would need tested.
The only thing I can accept here is being able to see your team's mana levels. That would definitely help people who don't play with VoIP (the majority) in a positive way.
Intel should be earned, not given away for free. ActR, you seem to usually come to rational conclusions, please think this one through a bit further. Do you really want Demigod, a game with only 8-10 heroes and a list of items that can be remembered in under a week's worth of play, to turn into an automatic succession of hard counters? Is that really what you want?
Most of this information is already available to people who pay attention:
* Armor vs. HP - how much damage is your auto attack doing?* Speed stacking - am I able to catch up to them? Or only at certain times do they all of a sudden take off?* Cap locks - duh, are they locking flags?* Potions - are they popping potions instead of running? Oh, hey look, they're standing there waving their hands around, maybe I should try to interrupt them now?* Mana - are they using skills fairly often or only sparingly? Or, you know what they *should* have casted, but did they? Either they screwed up or they're out of mana at the moment
It's really not that hard.
I enjoy the fact that I still have to play carefully because I don't know from the very beginning exactly what my opponent is planning. No matter how good I have gotten I still have to take the other team seriously until I have put the time and effort in to discerning their intentions. And if they change their plan partway through the game I don't want to figure it out by simply moving my cursor over their head.
You guys who want to mouse over and see all items and mana are either looking for easy mode or want a purely mechanical game. This game does not have enough depth to it (in terms of options) to be sustainable that way. If we had 80+ heroes and hundreds of useful items to choose from then sure, it might work a bit better, but that would definitely not be as fun to most of the people who play Demigod.
Demigod drew whatever inspiration that it wanted from DoTA and has since become a game of it's own. It's not right to say that it worked in DoTA for you therefore it must be great for Demigod.
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