UPDATE
replay link
https://www.wincustomize.com/skins.aspx?skinid=41&libid=72
Applies to both version
1)
Set strike craft build rate penality to 50%
(DO NOT adjust Flak. this will change the game too much)
2) (this one is not a must)
Maximize the amount of ships the Marz damage using missle barriage
or
Give each race at least two ways to directly stop missile barriage
Tec has 3
Advent has 2
Vas has 1
3)
Repulse needs to be addressed. Currently it affects all units including Caps (Vas SB are strucutres)
For all 3 races standard counters are LRMS (barely) or fighters
Tec: 0 direct counters (other then cap ablities which are out of range. Suggest increasing range of hosh demo bots to be able to reach guardians when using repulse and disable abilities (currently only does damage and disable weapons)
Advent: 0 direct counters (other then cap ablities which are out of range. Seeing 2 advent using repulse is a funny. Subj suprression is out of range
Vas. Subs but doesnt affect capital ships and AOE is small. Suggest increasing range and include caps in its affect (like repulse)
Decrease repulse range and/or duration. Also caps should not be affected
4)
Unit for unit lums are over powered.
In my test the other race needs to spend at least twice as much to go head to head in lrms.
Yes you could use other units like scouts, flak, hc, etc.... but the fact that vas has to make 2x+ more assilants or for tec 3x+ lrms is crazy. I suggest either giving each race a unit advantage like Tec hc able to fire in 3 different direction or vas skirms able to fire in 3 different direction like lums. Each race should have a super unit
Increase build time for lums and/or increase cost. OR decrease damage of side beams.
For Entrenchment only
Starbase build time on hostile grav is too fast. Mainly appiles to vas but all 3 races should have their build time increase by 20% at first tweak later if needed.
I agree the Marza could have a target cap for Missile Barrage...even if it is 30 or 40 ships. It would still inflict tons of damage with that target cap, but you wouldn't have situations where a couple Marzas destroy the entire enemy fleet.
I also agree that carriers should have the build penalty reduced. The Carrier / Illuminator problem is related. Illuminators didn't seem too strong before the carrier nerf because you could successfully use carriers to fight them. Repulse was still a pain, but at least your carriers could rebuild the fighters you were losing so you could keep fighting the Advent battleball.
Now Advent have a very powerful endgame advantage -- with a Halcyon TK push and flak, battleballs using repulse and tons of Illuminators are a problem for the other races to fight. It was like this in 1.05 as well, except that Vasari had powerful un-nerfed Subverters back then...TEC was pretty screwed endgame in 1.05 against a skilled Advent player. 1.16 / 1.02 has moved back in this direction with the Carrier nerf. One of the things I pointed out about carriers in 1.12 was even though they were a bit OP, they were equally OP for all the races, which had a balancing effect.
Also, Flak should not be touched. I have noticed some posters talk about making it weaker against fighters and stronger against other frigates, which would be a huge mistake. Flak is already decent at fighting LRM.
I have to agree on all of these points JJ. I agree right now that vasari need SBs to build fast just so they can get an advantage in the rush, but if the game is blanced better this will not need to be the case.
I like your idea with increasing hte DMG of the AOE abilities of the other 2 lrfs, right now if you had 100 of them focusfireing a SB they probably wouldnt even take down the sheilds of nearby ships before they got destroyed.
Uhm...HC wouldn't even reach the guardians due to inferior weaponrange. Definitely not a wise choice to engage a Battleball with HCs...
I haven't looked at the replay but shouldn't it be considered that vasari will produce more assailants than the advent can get illums anyways? They should have more income with resources and neutrals. The advent have to depend on the mothership discount in order to have much of an economy. That money has to be spent up front to get the discount and not like tec and vasari as they need it. It hurts the advent war machine up front to take advantage of discounts for later economy. Your suggestions do nothing to vasari whom you play a lot JJ. If DPS is taken away from illums then assailants should have phase missles taken away from them. Vasari have entirely too many things that use phase missles anyways which makes it easy for them to use one line of weapon upgrades. The egg should have its nano toned down and they should have to get neutrals with colonizers like the rest of us.
[_]-Greyfox
I, like grey dont think that nerfing illums is the answer. really JJs Idea about increasing the dmg of the AOE abilites on assilents and lrms, would even out the playing field.
Making vasari get neutrals with colony ships wouldnt solve anything, it would just make the game less balanced.
But if Vasari has teched up with phase missiles what would be the results? I mean I know you could ask that of just about any tech but don't Vasari players tech phase missiles rather quickly?
i do have one question however....
since we all know ilums use PRECISE BEAM WEAPONRY do tell me how a single strand of energy will spread damage to another ship through area of effect?
jj the point of the matter is if you cant pump out your assailants fast enough thats your own fault. this entire thread to me sounds like a personal problem. we pay for the use of the best lrms in the game just like you pay for your hcs. the fact that we know how to abuse our units just like you abuse your scouts doesnt mean its "unfair" it just means you cant abuse my abuse. stop trying to fight rock with paper. it always loses. instead of that why not bring our a bigger one? everyone knows ilums will lose to HC in 2:1 ratios without support ships.
and btw the last time i used a destra was in a group of 20 paired with my radiance to slap down the enemy LRMS who was a vasari. about .., 3 days ago? ive not been on in a while. destras the way i use em are freaking own. i dont have to use them mind you but its just nice to do so.
our point is.. advent is the strongest LRM race. yours is the strongest HC race... i mean really? what other hc has 2 abilities? the highest DPS? the most hull points and a regenative ability? lets be real now people. what you all really complain about advent is their synergy.. that is something that cant and will not be changed. find your synergy for your race and stop bashing ours.
I don't really think the Illuminator should be nerfed. It just needs a counter. The problem is with the carrier nerf, the counter to Illuminators is easily defended against and battleballs become hard to fight.
As a Vasari player, I don't mind the early to midgame engagements with Advent because I expect to have other advantages helping me be competitive against the Illuminator. I think the problem people are encountering is that endgame the Advent battleball has no real weakness. It neutralizes HC's with repulse, it neutralizes strikecraft with Halcyons and Flak, and while it will take some losses to enemy LRM / Assailants, it can pretty much roll over them and win those fights with superior Illuminators.
I was trying to make a point, Top Vasari. I don't think that they should have their neutral grabbing scouts taken from them annoying as they may be because I think that would be unbalancing in other ways. I was stating that JJ is asking for a relative buff to vasari because he didn't ask for any changes to them which he plays a lot. Nerfing illums is not the answer. Un-gimping fighters/carriers is more in line to be the answer. That provides a balance to LRF in general rather than screwing over one race. People freaked out unnecessarily about carriers being OP in the last "balancing" and look what it got you. Flak still need to be useful but carriers were hit too hard.
I'm pretty much in agreement. The one observation I want to make is that the Vasari Subverter took a massive nerf in 1.1. That was how Vasari dealt with huge Illum spams back in 1.05 (which had even stronger Illums, btw). In 1.1 Vasari started relying on strikecraft to deal with Illums. Now that carriers are nerfed and flaks are "fixed", I think Vasari (and TEC) are just looking for a way to stay competitive in the endgame.
well it doesnt look too good. the change log for entrenchment 1.03 only nerfs carriers more. their speed is being reduced and so far it looks like nothing has been done about the -75% build time.
I really hope the change log is incomplete. but it doesnt look that way [e digicons][/e]
There is a tentative changelog out there for 1.03? I looked and couldn't find it... I didn't think they posted those unless there was a beta version. Can you link it?
https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/354826/#2240813
heres the link...
Bad news
Carrier and MB nerf
MB nerf I'm not too bothered by, but the carrier nerf seems to be beating the dead horse at this point. So they now build strikecraft like they were working in a shed and move about as fast as one too. Figures. Tell me again the point of Light Frigates?
EDIT: Actually, now that I think about it, the Marza change isn't so much of a nerf as it is just tweaking how long it takes to kill everything. We should be able to run away from it now.
Carriers were not the only thing that got nerf. So did subs. If you bring back the old subs which was the counter for repulse then things would be more balnce. Tec would still need a buff, because they never did have a counter.
Vas overseers were also nerf
With 1.0 most advent complained carriers were op
With 1.02 both tec and vas players want a buff to carriers again to counter lrms
with 1.03 (MB nerf and carrier nerf) I suspect more tec players will complain even so
thats the problem.. Other races now can just run away without losing ships.
Compared to losing entire fleets in 20 seconds? Thank you, I'll take the chance for a strategic withdrawal. Don't worry, some ships will be lost and others will be badly beaten but in the end the opponent will at least have a fleet left to fight with.
I posted exhaustively when people were screaming that carriers were OP that they were not and could be dealt with. Carriers were fine but some people did not want to learn how to deal with them effectively. Nerfing them harder is certainly not going to make things better. I am neither here nor there about subverters. It would be nice if domina subjugators were improved a bit to help deal with subverters. As of now no one hardly builds them. It wasn't really advent complaining about carriers more than it was others complaining that advent had too many per carrier thinking they were stronger because of that. I think carriers need to be closer to previous levels. That would solve a lot of your illum/guardian problems or LRF spam in general. It would also help with countering subverters too for that matter.
Oh Btw Lum damage isnt spread 50% in the front and and 50% in the sides. Last time they changed the lumms the damage was somethign like 66% in the front and 33% in the sides.
You do the math.
This is a copy/paste from the 1.1 change log where illums were nerfed.
Illuminator Vessel:
Front banks are twice the damage of the side bank. There are 2 side banks. 27.25 times 2 is 54.5. That is roughly 50 percent in front and 50 percent divided between 2 sides. I did the math thank you.
Indeed that is true. How ever when they say side bank dmg do they mean just 1 side of booth. Because if it is just 1 side thent hat means it'S 50/50. If it means both sides then that means 66/33. In a previous patch build I know Blair had specified it. I'm lokking for it but comming short.
We could get teh answer from the game files. But i dunno how to read them properly my self. I'll ask Annatar.
Edit: Ok got my answer it is 50/50.
Thanks Annatar
Two things I'd change:
1) I would leave the build rate of starbases in hostile grav wells unchanged. If you want more details, ask, and I'll provide, but long story short is that I think it makes the game more dynamic and makes it a bit easier to puncture defences. This may just be preference on my part.
2) I think repulse actually should take cap ships with it, despite being unrealistic. This is because if just the cap ships are left, then it makes it that much easier to focus fire on them. Also, it would take away an Advent semi-counter to Missile Barrage. So, yeah, it's a bit unrealistic, but people would be losing cap ships left and right otherwise.
Otherwise, I agree with what you said.
SC build penalties - I like them. Since carriers rebuild SC for free, you should at least be able to neutralize them for a meaningful amount of time. Rebuilding during combat should have a 100% build penalty.
Marza - agree, MB damage is so ridiculously overpowered compared to anything else. No other lvl 6 cap is powerful enough to send a 300 supply fleet running or single handedly destroy it.
Repulsion - both Vas and TEC have means to fight it. Vas especially since Guardians are very vulnerable to Phase Missiles and Assailants easily outrange Repulse. TEC have the biggest range advantages (LRMs, Akkan) in the game and they should use that against Advent. They also have Dunovs with EMP (very effective against a battleball) to neutralize the Guardians and Intercept for Kodiaks. Only change I would make is Intercept better countering Repulse and TEC would have no trouble with it.
Illuminators - I would like to see the Assailant / Illuminator kill ratio after Phase Missiles have been fully upgraded. Those things tear Advent ships apart without mercy.
The Dunov's EMP charge falls Short. Very short.
First problem is that EMP charge isa forward shotting while the Dunov is side shooting. So you have to wait a good 10 seconds for the anilaty to be fired on the target.
2nd the effect on enemy Anti-matter is abismaly insignificant on advent. It migth work to some extent on TEC and Vasary but againts Gardians and Areias it can't make the AM reach 0 with lvl 3 empcharge. So gardians are still free to repulse as they want and Drone host will enver run out of anti-matter with wich to rebuild SC. OR a rpogenitor that is spammign sheild restore.
It looks amazin on parper but ingame because of Advent insanely huge AM recharge rates compared to the otehr races it falls very short.
They are 2 things that need to be done to make it more viable:
1 make the Dunov a forward shottign ship of make EMPcharge firerable in any direction.
2 Add a stops AM regeneration on targeted ships for X time.
Well they need to make fighters have a seperate armor type then they could solve it.They could give fighters more hp too.All that needs to be fixed is flak vs fighter right now. If this was fixed lrf could be countered without bringing back old build rates.
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