100% agreed.

Edit: Gah, damn reply-bug!

JJ im just curious as to why adjusting flak is such a bad idea?I suggested decreasing damage to fighters and increasing damage to other ship types to keep it useful.I want carriers to be strong and a main force in a fleet but I like have a penalty for losing your sc.Makes it possible to defeat a carrier force.Makes it possible to clear fighters and use bombers.Things like that.

1) I agree.

2) Agreed, though there are a number of other options that have been debated in the other Marza threads that could work too.

3) Does the Akkan's targetting uplink increase the range enough to outdistance the repulse ability? If not then the answer to the Advent Battleball is strikecraft, which unfortunately have been nerfed to hell so there is no viable counter. Perhaps limit the Repulse ability to frigates but ignore cruisers. Advent excel in close combat with the Illum's side weapons and their strikecraft are the best in the game so the effects of HC getting that close are mitigated somewhat, but it allows the TEC/Vasari players to get their most powerful ships into range enough to fight on an even keel.

4) I disagree on this point because each of the factions has an ability that fits their overall theme. Advent have massed attacks against multiple foes (their specialities being illums, strikecraft and the powerful synergies of their cap ships). TEC has overwhelming numbers for cheap cost as well as an upgrade for their LRMs that give them AOE damage (much like the Marza's abilities iirc). Vasari have pretty much the ultimate weapon against Advent with phase missiles (which are in my opinion one of the best weapons in the game) - TEC have a way to counter that with their suped up armour and the modified shields (can't remember the name) tech while Advent have super strong shields... which do nothing against weapons that completely ignore them . So while the Advent have remarkably powerful LRMs in basic DPS you're failing to consider the special abilities of the other factions that mitigate that advantage.

5) I'm not too sure on this. The Advent starbase takes 300 seconds to build, which is time enough for a smart enemy to either build his own starbase (as Vasari) or cripple it enough that it would be taken down easily enough by a fleet. The Vasari SB is supposed to be built quickly because it is the dedicated anti-SB weapon for the Vasari, upping the build time would prove to be a major disadvantage for them as abilities like meteor storm and mass disorientation rip apart fleets to quickly for them to be a viable SB counter.

I think most would agree I know how to play Vasari strengths.

The problem with lums is it takes out ALL units. Early in the game you can counter with scouts and flak (never lrms).  Later in the game when the someone has 50+ lums, they take out all units including hc.

Advents do not have weak HC. The reason no one builds them is because lums are better, even in late games.  With repulse there is no reason to build hc, plus the user would need to upgrade another type of weapon tech.

Using lrms to kill a gurdian using repulse with a fleet of lums protecting it  is not cost effective.  Again due to the lums out powering any other lrms, you will lose too many units trying to do so. Plus the average advent user will have another gurdians  ready to use repulse again.  All the other user would end up doing is losing many many lrms, and not really taking out any other unit.

As for the other arguemnts its seems you agree in nerfing all the other races but the advent. 

I would hope the devs attempt to address all these concerns all at once or nothing at all, because they would be taking out the only advantage the other race has

An easy way to balance lums would be to increase the AOE effect of the other two races when using their lrms. Currently both upgrades for the other two are barely noticible at best. Its fine that lums have aoe at the start, while the other two race require a lvl 4 upgrade, but the upgrade does barely any AOE damage.

If you read the original post.  I suggest both points. Either give each race a speical unit or nerf the lums.

Also I suggest increasing AOE upgrade to the other two (best suggestion of the 3)

As to #1, I think carriers were nerfed too hard as well.  Flak don't need nerfed again or they will lose what usefullness they picked up with 1.02.

As to #2, Marza needs some limiting factor.  That it can do so much damage is imbalanced and out of line with every other cap ability.  Whether it needs to do less damage,less range/narrowed area of effect, target cap, or more disablers is yet to be seen.

As to #3, the counter to guardians is mainly lrf and strike craft but go on to say that advent and tec have no direct counter.  LRF and strike craft are the counters as they are acting directly on the guardian in question.  Disabling push is something different and there are several ways to do so(all of which I am not saying to prevent it being used against me).  All the LRF but illums outrange push.  Vasari dont even have to worry about eating through the shield because phase missles on both the strike craft and lrf can go through it to the paper thin hull underneath. 

As to #4,  Illums have about 17 dps total with about half that in the forward banks and the other half split between both sides.  That is 8 and some change to the forward bank.  Wimpy Javelis do 11 and all of it is in the forward banks and they cost less money and supply.  Assailants do 13 and its all in forward banks(thats almost 2 thirds more than the illum's forward banks do).  Thats not counting the boost they get from phase missles.  The advent player has to micro more to get the use out of its full dps with side beams although advent has the benefit of being instant hit damage rather than waiting for missles to hit.  You do have to buy more Javelis than illums to be a fair matchup but they are cheaper and take less supply(4 vs 6).  Assailants should be about even but generally vasari gun for advent caps rather than illums because of phase missles and egg to hit hull.  Killing a mothership is a bigger blow than killing a few illums so there isnt much to gripe about if they choose cap over fleet.  Vasari are more advent killers anyways with the phase missles since advent are more shield than hull most times.  Not to mention that illums are higher level research as other LRF(1 for vasari, 2 for tec, 3 for advent).  I daresay that vasari can have half a dozen assailants built before advent can build 1 illum and you cant say that that doesnt make a difference be it direct combat against the enemy or in clearing militia to colonize.

[_]-Greyfox

Fair point, though I did suggest changing the effect of repulse to only affect frigates rather than cruisers, which would give the opposition the advantage if they are using HC (which are the backbone of any TEC/Vasari fleet once researched) but still giving the Advent the ability to push back the most numerous units.

I agree, but consider also that TEC have the cheapest, fastest built and fastest in general HC among the factions as well as having the highest armour before researched buffs and you have the monster that should make up the brute force aspect of the TEC fleet. Add in twenty or so hoshikos and you get the reputation of the TEC being nigh on invincible.

On the Vasari side however we have phase missiles, which would rightly deserve the nickname Advent Bane . They out range every Advent ship and completely ignore shields/mitigation up to 30% of the time, which to the Advent is damn lethal (considering how their first armour upgrade is at tech level 6). However, Vasari are built more to fight large targets such as capital ships rather than the rank and file fleet that support them, which means it should be left to the hard counter to take out those LRMs. Unfortunately since the carrier nerf that just can't happen any more.

Fortunately though, the repulse effect gives you the advantage since Advent units have very short range compared to the other factions, so when the opponent uses repulse it's giving you the chance to regroup and retarget the necessary units. Hit and run tactics work. If you're TEC use Intercept to get your HCs in to attack the illums directly before being repulsed again. If you're Vasari use the extra range Assailants give you to attack from where they can't hit you. Hit the capital ships first (Halycon and Progenitors are the priority), flak second, then send in a wave of fighters to hit the illums. Retreat them immediately so that the flak can't destroy too many. Wait for them to heal and do the same again. Rince and repeat until the key units are dead and keep retreating your injured units so that they don't die. TEC obviously have the advantage here with hoshikos.

Remember also that for Illums to have their full effect they must be in amongst the enemy to get the side beams working. That means that they're either away from backup so you can take them apart at your leisure (missile barrage and Disintegration/Volatile Nanites are suggested) or have brought the rest of the fleet with them, meaning you can get some shots in on guardians and cap ships with your HC and Assailants.

Yes, but that Vasari starbase is still very weak in its un-upgraded form, which makes it easy for a dedicated fleet to destroy it. Starbases are not the be all and end all of taking a hostile grav well, they need support and money to get up and running. Add in that Vasari don't have a dedicated anti-SB cruiser like the TEC/Advent do and you already have some glaring weaknesses that can be exploited.

Seems to me JJ you have been losing a bit more to advents lately. im not impeaching upon your skill in any way shape or form. but we have adapted to you. but to my points.

first.. ilums should not be nerfed. if you guys can get a discount of every single thing you build by the time i get ilums well... do the math?

as vasari (and yes i can play vas.) the main thing you need to realize is that you arent a pound for pound complete match for advent and nor should you be. the strengths or the races lie in their abilities to focus their energies in certain area. TEC loves their heavy armor and hull points. Vasari love their technological superiority, phase missiles, stabs etc. advent like their beam weaponry, their plasma. their basic synergy. we have the most expensive lrm in the game pound for pound. we also have the best. that should say something.

vasari have the best HC pound for pound (usually) but they are also the most expensive. that should ALSO say something.

TEC have the best armor and hull points. it costs them 1000s more to research. that should ALSO say something. nothing here is free. we all pay for our advantages. the fact that people complain about the advantages we PAY for is totally ignorant of the fact that you have advantages that can COUNTERACT theirs. now there are broken things like the marza and such things like that. however advents already had the shit nerfed out of them and we still pay for our units.

you are the ONLY race to have a suppression cruiser capable of neutralizing an ENTIRE FLEET. you may say oh its radius is too small but lets be logical.. the reason most people thing advent LRMS are overpowered is because of their 3 beams... for us to effectively utilize ALL 3 beams we must be in a tight formation.. in a tight formation a subverter.. A LONE subverter will knock out atleast 80 percent.. if not all of your ships. ask greyfox. i did this to him before. subverters do not need a buff. carriers i can see. ilums do not need to be nerfed any more. by the time you pay for your first assailant to roll out the factory im RESEARCHING mine. you only pay 500-500 res for your research. we pay 1100. not to mention the amt it costs to buy. now you can say yours is more expensive but for your start up cost you are still going to pay less in the long run than i am for my iluminators which have their 17 DPS spread throughout 3 banks while yours is focused into 1 single torpedo bay.

I dont know what you have been smoking but since when have you known 6 illums to WIN against 12 assailants.  Even if i swam through your assailants like a fish, I wouldn't be able to kill 12 assailants with 6 illums even with a mothership and no egg for you.  You are right that quick start helps get illums out faster than otherwise but those resources are spent elsewhere for vasari and plus they have their damned neutrals to help them out-econ advent who have neither the early trade of tec or easy neutrals.  The resources to build just the 2  extra labs for illums and you could build 4 or 5 assailants.  Factor in the easy as hell neutrals that produce resources without allegiance penalties and you can EASILY outproduce advent plus they get combined resource extraction research to add insult to injury.  I certainly don't feel sorry for vasari even against the supposedly OP illums.

[_]-Greyfox

Then you're doing it wrong. By the time the Advent Battleball is strong enough to work as it should your main unit as TEC or Vasari should be the HC units.

You're forgetting that Vasari have the Space Egg + phase missiles, which early game are an almost sure fire combination to take out the enemy Progenitor. Early game Advent rely so haevily on the Progenitor's colonise ability that the majority will flee the grav well if it looks even slightly like the Mothership is going down. If you destroy that ship the Advent are screwed, literally. Their econ goes down the drain if that ship dies, unlike the Vasari who use neutral mines as their main source of revenue in the early game.

Vasari are capital killers. Advent are fleet killers. Advent rely heavily on cap ships. Vasari rely on a mixture.