When you stun someone they become immune to stun effects for a period of time. This is to prevent stunlocking an opponent in place for an instant, easy kill. When you slow someone the slows can only stack to a cap (33% I think?)
But we never really looked at this when it comes to buffs. When you shield someone they should become immune to shield effects for a period. When you do anything to someone that provides a direct buff or debuff it should either be capped or have an immunity effect.
An example to show why this might be desirable down the line -
1. An organized competitive team of five players - 4 Oaks and one Rook - destroy a competently defended Citadel within 10 minutes. The Oaks chain shields to protect the Rook while he stomps through the enemy base. Due to shield's long range and complete damage mitigation they'd probably only have to push twice to down the citadel. Replace Oak with QoT - Bramble is less effective but has a hella shorter cooldown than Shield. 4 QoT's could keep it up on one target forever. While I think this would be most effective with Oak or QoT, you could Rinse/Repeat with any stacked General or group of Generals (as long as Erebus's Mist hp regen stacks?) and you can't really counter until support runs out of Mana.
If we ever have a game mode that requires killing one particular DG, rather than any and all DGs (CTF, Assassin, Round Robin, Sabotage, Chess) or get competitive matches with more than 6 players then shield/heal stacks will become a problem.
Thanks, Kestrel
*Stamps*
I approve.
thanks tripled153 ^^
No one else could see this being a problem?
I can't wait for the first few USA Tournaments
I havnt seen anything like this in game yet, but there hasnt been much ultra competitive organized teamwork, and when the Tourneys start coming that could be a big problem. I approve too.
Damn I never gone so far as to thinking something like this .
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Sounds like a fine idea to me.
Does leave a bit of a question for near instant skills like heal and longer ones like Bramble Shield where they don't always last the whole of the max duration.
What are you doing to do when the enemy DGs come and chase the Oaks away? Rook ends up by his lonesome, a good UB will make sure Rook doesn't escape (several towers + creeps + UB = dead rook). From what I've seen the Citidal has hax health regen (something like 100hp/ps) so that means if Rook dies, you're out 30 seconds. Then it takes 30 seconds to get back if no one intercepts you. That's 60 seconsd of 100hp/ps regen. Or 6000hp.
I just see a team of 4 Oaks and a Rook getting completely stomped by a more mixed team (e.g. Oak, QoT, Rook, UB, Erebus).
Also, speed debuffs have no cap. I know I've brought people down to a crawl with Regulus (they were moving at like 1m/ps).
The point of this post is that focus-fire won't work very well against a shield team - and that might be a problem later because it's what we are all using to kill teams right now. You find the weak link and kill them first. A team like this doesn't have a weak link, really, and as long as they don't get cocky they can down all your towers really effectively without much risk.
I agree that a mixed team would be more effective generally, but when it comes to stopping a base blitz it seems to me that most teams would be in serious trouble if they got hit with this at level 5.
Re: slows this
[Edit] Ignore this bit, I missed tyo's post about it being 33% reduction including speed bonuses from items.
As for the immunity, I'm on the fence untill I get a chance to really try and break the current mechanic, I can see where you're coming from but to me there just seems a real difference in between being stunlocked to death and facing an enemy demigod with spammy defence buffs.
Just to play devil's advocate in the mean time though:
A complete stunlock kill leaves you with no options once it starts, and given warp items/skills it's not easy to see that first one coming either. That feeling of futility was what was rather un-fun.
But facing a single demigod that's practically invulnerable due to short lived support buffs doesn't leave you with no options, if it's a big team game, there's more than enough of the opposing team to go out and harass the support demigods and still have 1 behind to chase the attacker away once his support dries up. None of the buffs make the demigod any more of a killer, just harder to kill so it's not too dangerous to ignore him and attack his support as a team. If it's a small team game there's not really than many buffs you can stack in a row, unless the attacker is oak or QoT herself.
As for those specific examples, shield is 6 secs with a 35 sec cooldown at max level, so they can't keep it up indefinitely. Still, 24 seconds is certainly a long time to leave someone whacking your defences so there's definitely a potential threat there. But whether the oaks can stop themselves being forced out of cast range of the rook is still dubious, if the rook goes back to defend them he's still only 1 more demigod worth of damage in a 5 demigod battle and he's no longer hammering your defences either so it's just a straight fight again.
The bramble has less of a threat, it's got a very short recast, yes, but it's going to go down fast under focus fire from towers and defenders. Re-applying it is going to eat mana very quickly and mean the QoT needs to get dangerously close much more often. I just don't think it could keep going long enough to be a threat.
I will say the rook's probably not the best choice as your demigod to buff, his high survivability doesn't mean much if you're successful in protecting him, damage spec'd UB or regulus would be better for a co-ordinated invulnerability tactic, both for higher damage and their ability to slow and chase demigods that try to pass them and reach the support.
The real test is to get a group together and try to abuse the crap out of them as they are. Now to find 5-10 willing players.
Also, I stil don't believe the speed thing is correct, since it'd mean a lvl4 MotB against DGs without speed buffs only applies 33% reduction, instead of 40%, which just feels a bit silly. I'll need to test this out.
PS. Ok, tested it. MotB won't drop you below -33% move speed. It might if combined with other slows, which I didn't test.
Are you sure? I played a game against a TB yesterday, and he could keep me continuously stunned in place without moving, using some kind of frost effect. He could chain it over and over again, and I was frozen in place. Then I would just die of course.
I was amazed because I thought abilities had some kind of cooldown, plus the mana he was using must have been huge, but I guess he had trinkets or whatever that gave him mana and eliminated cooldown.
It caps out at 33% regardless of number of effects.
On topic - it sounds like most everyone is ok with buff-stacking. I guess we'll just have to see how things develop ^^
It definitely sounds like a problem in theory, but I'd want to see somebody try to execute it in real life before I deemed it worthy of a change.
Stun locking and snare stacking were obvious problems in late Beta because everybody was abusing them. Therefore, they were changed. Regulus Snipe stacking sounds terrifying in theory, but I'm not sure anybody has really conclusively demonstrated it in practice with an organized team. Therefore, it hasn't been changed.
Once somebody demonstrates that this is an abusable problem, it will warrant changing.
I think you missed something far scarier against a citadel than shield..
Surge of Faith.
I was already talking about testing if this stacks. If it does, ti'd be crazy. You have 3 oaks surge of faith and not even warpstone will get away since they'd move so fast with +60% movespeed ontop of items. It'd just be freaking paintrain.
I said in another thread, I tend to think the same buff or debuff should never stack, but replace if it's a higher level. Currently it only does this if it's your own, not an allies.
It would help prevent "abuses" that rely on a bunch of one demigod stacking something powerful.
Yah that's pretty much where I'm going with it...Everything in the game that can be stacked will be, at some point, unless you put a cap on it or do a diminishing returns/immunity mechanic
We are starting to see this already but it's not too late to get ahead of the ball...
Oh well, I'm content that we talked it out a bit - as PI says, it won't get looked at until we take it beyond theory and start relentlessly abusing it...(Happy to start that process if anyone wants to play next week )
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