Alright, after reading the the thread "Do cap ships suck or what" and from my own game experiences of roughly 70 full games or so I sincerely believe for the entrenchment patch or someday Stardock really needs to make the capital ships play a better role in the game.
I understand that during the design of SoaSE that Cap ships were never meant to be spammable battle winners but usually as support, but considering the huge cost and supply requirements of cap ships at this point unless you use the cap ship abilities very exceptionally in combat situations it almost best to just build your 1st starting cap ship then spam frigates or carriers for the rest of the game. Capital ships should really be the heart and soul of a fleet rather than "support" sidekicks, look at any science fiction: Star Wars, Star Trek, Battlestar...
Stardock if you're worried about cap ships being spammed, don't because the supply requirements simply make that impossible, I personally really want a ship that can last and stand its own. Also furthermore, Crusiers counter frigates and frigates counter Cap ships, but what do Cap ships counter? Nothing!!! Right now its really just a gimmick unit you use for the abilities, which is fine but they should be able to stand their ground too instead of going down to concentrated fire in a few seconds.
Simply cap ships go down way too fast, esp. from Carrier/strike craft spam that almost 90% of mid-late game turns into. I think free and instant-to-very fast replacable strike craft are a huge problem in and of themselves and needs to be nerfed, but that is just another matter that makes cap ships more of a liability. I propose
-all Cap ships should be given 15% more hp from regular fire, and 20 - 25% dmg resistance from strike craft, this is realistic as why would the guns and missles of strike craft do the same dmg as from large frigates/crusiers. This can be done thru the form of research so that cap ships become stronger significantly as time goes on.
-Cap ships should soft counter everything, usually you can only have 1-2 or 3-4 (at great expense) and they'll go down in concentrated fire easily without being able to do much dmg. Have 20 frigates vs. 3 Cap ships, and frigates will win, despite 3 caps costing more in build and research time.
-most cap ships should have the equalivant of the Flak Burst to reduce their vulnerability to strike. -OR-
-Make the flak frigate viable, there is another thread about this, against Strike Craft it is almost completely useless. Figther on Fighter combat really needs to be more devastating to each other, as right now a battle can last 10 minutes and I see 46/50 fighters still left fighting his 50 fighters. (I can rebuild these instantly)
In general, one of my criticisms of this game is that some units are way too spammable such making units more expendable, the one unit that ISN't Spammable the cap ship, will lose to spam everytime. Cap ships being force to run from hoards of fighters and frigates in almost every game makes it seem silly. They need to pull their weight.
I don't think anyone would object to a mere 15-20% increased in hp. That'll make a lot of ppl happy.
All these requests in various threads to modify the game--weaken carriers, strengthen caps, make structures build more slowly, etc., make me wonder whether they're being requested and clamored for by people who've been beaten by them in online multiplayer.
My question--if the game is changed in some sort of a way--do you really think it will make you a better player online? Will players who were mediocre end up being decent all of the sudden and will the best players be brought down to that level? Or will the best players adapt and continue to be the best players, the good players continue to be the good players, and the mediocre players continue to be the mediocre players? I think it's the later.
In answer to centurion Jixra's last question: I agree. The best players are the ones who can adapt to changing situations, and making these changes will not knock them from their perch. But it would be nice to be able to counter fighters without having to resort to fighter spam. And I would prefer a stronger cap ship that can give and take more damage before succumbing to the inevitable. Then again, I haven't played multiplayer, so I can't exactly speak with first-hand experience about it.
I wouldn't complain if it took an equal amount of fleetcap. I'd prefer that it take more fleetcap so that caps are easily worthwhile to build, but I haven't examined the ramifications of that statement enough to be certain about it.
They'd still be slaughtered by any kind of mid to late game fleet.
I think you are well-advised to be cynical about people demanding changes to the game. I am too. When someone posts some thread screaming about this OP unit or tactic, or that OP unit or tactic, I always wonder.
However, I have long-believed that capships are weak and for the most part useless. It has nothing to do with getting beaten in online play, because I have many more wins than losses, and I retain the belief whether I am playing SP or MP, whether I am winning or losing. When I am beating someone who is losing because they have built too many capships (which means I am winning because of their mistake), I still have the belief.
In short, I do not lose in MP because I lose capships in multiplayer. In fact, usually if my capship goes down I say "Thank God - 50 extra fleetcap, and I don't have to research and wait to get it!" My request has strictly to do with funness of the game, i.e. the nice pretty capships are useless, and I think it would be more fun for the game if they were made a bit more viable.
But that's immaterial, because they would at least be holding their own and be worthwhile to build. If your lrf goes down but only after taking out 2 or 3 lf, you don't mind because it served its purpose and was worth it to build. You simply build another.
13 LRM's = 52 fleet supply
8 Illuminators or Assailants = 48 fleet supply
Certain lvl 6+ caps would vaporize them almost instantly.
If low level caps would kill them they would make frigates obsolete.
I have a hunch some high level caps would win without even using abilities. Would be interesting to test that.
Perhaps then there should be another category of ship?? In the early-mid game, caps are great, and at the end of game, they lose some of their charm. Perhaps there needs to be an uber-cap ship that would be viable in late game fleets. Perhaps at a cost of 150 fleet supply and equivalent to a super weapon.
Then again, that's what a star base is in Entrenchment, minus the fleet supply.
lol. The Kol, Kortul would easily win without abilities. Any carrier cap would also win without abilities.
What I don't like though is how multiple caps nerf eachother by sharing XP.
The XP sharing really discourages using multiple caps. In most cases, you're better off with a single lvl 6+ cap with more fleet than two lower level caps.
The XP penalty should be less severe.
So, basically, you want 16 level 6 Marza's running around? That sounds like a great idea.
Where did you get that idea?
Wrong.
I Think that Deflagratio's Idea that cap ships give passive bonuse to near by firgites and curieres is a good one. And would make CapShips more usefull. But to add my own to 2 cents. I think that cap ships should work as passive mulitpler for eachother. for ex: A Kol Battleship lets say lose to ten Cobalts bearly so after the there is one Colbat left. As things stand the 2 Kols would lose to tewnty or so Colbats. Bascily my suggestion is that because of the advanced computers in CapShips they network togather so it would take thirty Cobalts to beet the 2 Kol bearly, so one or to Colbats are lef, or to put another way 1 CapShip total defensivee and offensive power is the same as normal but 2 CapShips are have there defense and offensive power has mulitpled by 1.5. 1 CapShip has a defense of a 150 points and an offense of 100 points, 2 CapShip currently should then have togther a total of 300 points for Defense and 200 points for offense, But instead have togther a total of 450points for Defense and 300 point for offense.
1 CapShip 1x power
2 CapShip 1.5x power
3 CapShip 2x power
...
Yes please! The cap carrier should start with 4 squadrons. As it is you have to get to level 5 just to have 4 squadrons.
Offhand, what is the resource cost of the 10 cobalts vs the capship ( I don't have the numbers on hand )?
Also keep in mind that the group of 10 cobalts, you're going to be losing frigates every engagement, which need to be replaced. Factor in that cost as well.
I disagree. Many of the support capships, especially Advent, already do this in some manner. That's one of the primary reason I've always been a fan of the Advent, their CapShips have bloody fantastic auras!
imo its a good one and makes cap not too op as although they have increased survivabilty, the damage not done to them doesn't go away to does gets handed between frigates and cruisers
I really have faith in this solution to capital ship underpower, it brings a lot of more dynamic tactical decisions into play and I really hope the Devs read this and at least flirt with the idea, cause as of now, capital ships are nothing more than showpieces in late game.
Even though it's a far cry from space warefare, Naval vessels use this technique (Or at least used it before the onset of Long range Anti Ship Missiles like the Exocet) I suppose the theory is sound, just with the addition of the Z axis in space. Unfortunately (Or fortunately depending on how you look at it) the closest thing we have to a Real Life Analogy to space warefare is Mass Effect's space Combat codex lol.
I like it the way it is. I think it's perfect now. I don't want capital ships being a 1 ship fleet that can run over everyone. Kind of like that failure of a game Warcraft 3
Played this dude last night. I actually thought I was going to get my ass kicked because I played on his team once recently and he massed a humongus fleet in no time (much bigger than mine) and pretty much owned the map and won the game for us.
I usually play Vasari, but wanted to give TEC a try. I opened with an Akkan, he opened with a Marza. All the dude built in the open was caphips. He had 4 or 5, initially (but total built was way more). I saw what he was building, and while intimidating to most, I thought it was a huge mistake. So I built tons of generic frigs and attacked a 'roid he had taken. He counterattacked the 'roid with all his big, bad capships. I had to withdraw my only capship because he kept hitting it with radiation bomb from multiple Marzas. But I kept sending waves of frigs while my Akkan sat 1 'roid back on repair (where the useless hunk of junk stayed for the remainder of the game).
So back to the 'roid I was attacking. This dude also had 3-4 repair stations going at any one time, healing his caps while the battle continued. I'd kill the little builder units running around building repair, but somehow he kept getting repair up, so that if I killed all his repair, and clicked out of system to queue up some more frigs, by the time I clicked back he had repair up again (magic?).
Anyway, the bottom line was I won. The endgame stats revealed that I killed over 10 capships of his (everytime I'd kill a few, a few more would appear at the grav well). Don't know how he afforded so many - it was all I could do to keep generic frigs pumping. But I won. I suppose his strat is always to build an opening fleet of capships, and build frigs around that fleet later in the game. Must work against most of his online opponents. Didn't work against me. I consider it a flawed strat.
In retrospect, if I had been REALLY smart I would have sacrificed the Akkan early in the battle (since it was useless) and opened up 50 extra fleetcap for myself. Even smarter - perhaps not to have built a caphip at all?
I will be happy to post screenshots of the game, for those of you who think capships are all big and bad, but I can't promise because replays seem kind of screwed at the moment.
Again, capships (or, should I say "crapships") suck.
I don't think anything will change (at least not radically), and that's fine The game is already out, and it is unfair and kind of dumb to do radical design or balance changes once games are already out. If anything, we are suggesting "tweaks," not radical changes. If they are implemented, fine. If they aren't, fine. The game will remain okay and playable the way it is. But capships, in an objective analysis, suck. And that sucks.
Low level capital ships have an even tougher time endgame. Frigate counters are on the field, XP gets split up, and few ships die vs. the intensity of combat. Caps are also the best high value targets to kill. Combine this with an overpriced and weak method of purchasing XP, and you won't see late game caps reaching a high level if they didn't start there already.
change nothing, only play ai and you will be happy just like me.
I agree...I think there's been sufficient time and exposure for indivual unit balance. It's about understanding the game and its dynamics.
Centurion and Porter's demagoguery is a red herring,
What does it matter if other people have been beaten or have not been beaten in MP by carrier spam. ALL of us here is trying to make an objective balance suggestion to benefit the entire game. We state that nn-spammable elements in the game should not lose so easily to spam esp. carrier spam. Essentially Centurion is defending spam and spammy tactics. I feel having a diverse fleet of many different types with different abilities should be rewarded vs. 30 light carriers Centurion loves to keep at the edge of the gravity well and jump away the instant he gets in trouble.
As for your "adept" it means spamming carriers yourself and THAT IS LITERALLY THE only way to play competitively. You absolutely need carriers to stand a chance in ANYTHING. Why should a player be forced to spam a certain unit EVERY SINGLE game on Multiplayer?
Here is a shocking accusation, I bet Centurion enjoys his Carrier spam and is a true carrier spam fanboy. Screw all other ships and ship diversity. Carrier spam owns all! AMEN.
Also Ironclad please note the majority of players here who posted do support the idea of making cap ships better in 1 form or another. Don't let two posters drive you off with a straw man arguement and other logical flaws.
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