Alright, after reading the the thread "Do cap ships suck or what" and from my own game experiences of roughly 70 full games or so I sincerely believe for the entrenchment patch or someday Stardock really needs to make the capital ships play a better role in the game.
I understand that during the design of SoaSE that Cap ships were never meant to be spammable battle winners but usually as support, but considering the huge cost and supply requirements of cap ships at this point unless you use the cap ship abilities very exceptionally in combat situations it almost best to just build your 1st starting cap ship then spam frigates or carriers for the rest of the game. Capital ships should really be the heart and soul of a fleet rather than "support" sidekicks, look at any science fiction: Star Wars, Star Trek, Battlestar...
Stardock if you're worried about cap ships being spammed, don't because the supply requirements simply make that impossible, I personally really want a ship that can last and stand its own. Also furthermore, Crusiers counter frigates and frigates counter Cap ships, but what do Cap ships counter? Nothing!!! Right now its really just a gimmick unit you use for the abilities, which is fine but they should be able to stand their ground too instead of going down to concentrated fire in a few seconds.
Simply cap ships go down way too fast, esp. from Carrier/strike craft spam that almost 90% of mid-late game turns into. I think free and instant-to-very fast replacable strike craft are a huge problem in and of themselves and needs to be nerfed, but that is just another matter that makes cap ships more of a liability. I propose
-all Cap ships should be given 15% more hp from regular fire, and 20 - 25% dmg resistance from strike craft, this is realistic as why would the guns and missles of strike craft do the same dmg as from large frigates/crusiers. This can be done thru the form of research so that cap ships become stronger significantly as time goes on.
-Cap ships should soft counter everything, usually you can only have 1-2 or 3-4 (at great expense) and they'll go down in concentrated fire easily without being able to do much dmg. Have 20 frigates vs. 3 Cap ships, and frigates will win, despite 3 caps costing more in build and research time.
-most cap ships should have the equalivant of the Flak Burst to reduce their vulnerability to strike. -OR-
-Make the flak frigate viable, there is another thread about this, against Strike Craft it is almost completely useless. Figther on Fighter combat really needs to be more devastating to each other, as right now a battle can last 10 minutes and I see 46/50 fighters still left fighting his 50 fighters. (I can rebuild these instantly)
In general, one of my criticisms of this game is that some units are way too spammable such making units more expendable, the one unit that ISN't Spammable the cap ship, will lose to spam everytime. Cap ships being force to run from hoards of fighters and frigates in almost every game makes it seem silly. They need to pull their weight.
I don't think anyone would object to a mere 15-20% increased in hp. That'll make a lot of ppl happy.
Any thoughts would be appreciated.
You could make the changes yourself, just edit the .entity files of the cap ships and vola
I only play Multiplayer. That would cause a sync error.
Level them up.
They are meant to go from "not worth the fleet supply" to "tip the scale of the battle".
If they were really good at level 1 already we'd see all cap fleets.
Thats one of the problems. It takes so long and if you buy levels its really expensive to level them up.They are reall only useful around 4th level. I think they need to put in research to upgrade mitigation for caps only at 4th or 5th tier.
I understand your point and use to feel the same way.
We have many examples today and in history where large ships just can’t stand up to missile frigates and strike aircraft. So what I see in the game is a logical extension of what we see around us today.
I do see their uses, they do provide some capabilities and do a reasonable job in placing planets under siege. I hate building siege frigates as managing them is tricky as they fall under fire so quickly that you consume lots of capacity and resources to build and then rebuild.
I think the problem is less how strong the caps are at level 1, but the presence of your first cap at the start of the game. This is perhaps the only time when there aren't enough frigates running around to beat down a strong capital ship, and a cap on its own can just walk into a enemy gravity well and so long as the entire enemy fleet isn't there can pretty much clean up anything, then run back to a repair platform if he has trouble. Right now this is probably a sub-optimal use of your capital ship because the enemy will just run away and deprive you of experience while their own cap is clearing neutral worlds and levelling up, but if their base stats got boosted then this could be a significantly problematic opener.
With that said, late-game capital ships are just too vulnerable to focus fire. Aside from the occasional capital ship that has a defensive ability like the Kol, they're sitting ducks at the mercy of frigates and strike craft, even if they are high level capital ships. Advent with vengeance is perhaps the only faction with a decent counter-measure. Aside from reworking every faction to ensure that they have adequate late-game counter-measures against focus fire on capital ships, I don't see an easy solution.
I don't agree with the OP. Carriers are not spammable. SC are not replaced cheaply and quickly. You obviously have never played me in MP. Cap ships are fantastic and have good abilities. If I feel a cap ship is a serious threat, I want to be able to focus fire it and ensure it dies in a timely manner.
Make no mistake about it, focus fire ANY cap, and you are sacrificing quite a few of your ships. Most experienced gamers know this and only focus fire caps if they are "game" changers.
I don't think it would necessarily be a bad thing to see all cap fleets, because they are by far the most interesting ships in the game, and it would be far more manageable from a tactical perspective to control relatively fewer but more powerful and interesting capships than an infinite hoard of frigs where you have no hope, I don't care how good you are, of using real tactics, much less special abilities in an intelligent manner. I mean, how do you control the special abilities of 100 ships, and target them on individual ships of the enemy in a battle? The answer is, you can't, so you for the most part put it all on autocast. Gigantic hoards of frigs clashing really just degenerates into a mindless ball of chaos, where in the end the numbers and quality of units hopefully saves you over the enemy.
Having said that, there are ways to make capital ships much more viable in the game, while also ensuring that hoards of frigs still get built. One idea is that when you "fleet up" to the next level, you could be forced to buy another capship (if you didn't already have enough capships equal to the fleet level you were teching up to). This would not require adjusting any stats on the capships - they could remain expensive and sucky. But it would at least allow you to utilize more of them. Right now, I don't build any because they aren't cost-effective. But cost-effectiveness would be moot if EVERYONE were forced to buy numbers equivalent to the fleet level they are at.
Another idea would simply be to reduce their cost.
Another idea would be to make them stronger for their current cost.
I don't necessarily agree with the OP that they must be made much more durable against tactics like focus-firing or assassination (although that might be a perfectly good idea). Rather, whether they are durable or drop like flies, I'd just like to see some way of forcing them into the game more than they are now. Right now, all I'm really able to use is boring old frigates if I don't want to get crushed in a multiplayer. I actually have, on many occasions, not even built the free capship because that leaves me with 50 fleetcap tied up early game in what I consider to be an inferior ship. Those 50 fleetcap are better put into frigates.
The problem with this arises when the Advent capital ships are in question. At maximum cultural and their existing shield mitigation research, a mere level 1 capital can have 75% mitigation (at level 10, this figure is 85%). Increasing it further pushes Advent capitals on the verge of invulnerability. Excluding the Advent from this tech doesn't make sense either, since they're supposed to be the faction with emphasis on shielding, and giving mitigation research to the TEC or Vasari will erase that advantage of playing the Advent.
I believe that cap ships should have more health, and do more a damage. They are cap ships, and a lousy dipshit frigate flotilla shouldn't be able to take down even a level 1 cap ship. 10 cobalts have the firepower of a level 4 Kol Battleship.
Comparing wet navy ships to space ships is like comparing humans to Redwoods. Tthey are nothing alike.
Well the weapon bank system for Entrenchment should help capitals a bit. The best way to use the system would be to increase the maximum number of targets for each weapon bank as the capital ship levels up, Say one extra target every two levels.
Another solution would be to change the Capital Ship slot research to improve capital ships will each level researched. What I think would encourage use of capitals while keeping early game balance is for capital ship build and fleet cost to be decreased with each upgrade. By the time all 16 capital ship slots are unlocked, capital ships would be half of their base price and cost zero fleet population. This solution would make capital ships a very good deal for players who research all capital ship slots while preventing capitals from being overpowered early game.
The example of modern fighters and missile firgates vs modern ships doesn't work because shields change the entire equation. Large ships can mount massive shield generator/powerplants that give them enough defense to take hits strong enought obliterate weaker ships. In the modern world, anything strong enough to outright destroy a frigate will cause significant damage to any modern ship. With shields, the larger ships get out unharmed.
Howabout making late game cap ships come with the free leveling up? You already trained the crews before, some of it has to of passed down?
More Cap ships need the Kol's flak burst ability, and make this ability stronger and have a larger area of impact.
Cap ships are massive and obviously have hundreds of AA cannons on them. Almost all cap ships should have varying degrees of flak, and oh yeah MAKE the flak frigate viable. Come on, I mean really?
Also, with the hull and sheilds upgrades, make Cap ships benefit more from them than ordinary frigates and crusiers. Hence, cap ships would still be pretty moderate-to-weak early game to very strong late game. They should be a force multiplier.
Strike Craft need to cost something and make them un-replacable during combat, so carrier's can't be constantly replacing them as they lose them.
I think capital ships are plenty powerful. They are more than worth their expenses in a fight. if I spent the 3000 credits, 400 metal, and 325 crystal on regular ships, the capital ship
I agree with Dorian with just about everthing he said. capital ships are supposed to be imposing and fearsome. The beat stick of the galaxie, but at the moment there not.
Every capital ship should have a passive ability that benefits the fleet as a whole (In the gravity well) Some already do like the Akkan (Though the range is a bit limiting), but more so than the firepower they bring, capital ships should boost the morale of your forces. Just some ideas.
KOL: Passive Defense bonus to friendly Frigates, Cruisers and Capital ships. in the gravity well
Dunov: Passive Repair rate increase to friendly forces in the gravity well.
Marza: Passive Attack bonus to Friendly Cruisers, Frigates and capital ships in the gravity well.
Carrier: Extended range of "Heavy fighter" bonus to all strike Craft in the gravity well.
*Naturally the other factions would share some of this with their appropriate vessels.
Also carrier Capital ships should support more squadrons. Tell me if it makes sense. Sova Carrier 50 supply, 3000 credits, starts off with 2 squads. Light Carrier, 825 credits, starts off with 2 squads. and even when you get a Sova to max level, it's still more cost effective to just spam light carriers. Special abilities and all, the effectiveness of the Carrier Captial ships doesn't match against the light carriers. Carrier Capital ships should also specialize in destroying enemy Strike Craft with long range AA (Anti aircraft is sort of a misnomer, since there's no air but whutevah) abilities, as well as starting off with 1 or 2 more squadrons and upping the max to 8 or so. I don't think that'd be unbalancing since, if a player attempted to Capital carrier spam, carriers are extremely vulrnable to cruisers and even swarms of light frigates.
Either give the Carrier anti strike craft ability (Good anti strike craft ability) or even consider adding a new Aegis class Capital ship with tremendous anti Strike Craft ability, but limited power against heavily armed cruisers and Capital ships.
Someone suggested making strike craft cost something. I think that's also a wonderful idea for Light carriers, but for the Capital ships, they justifiably house the means to manufacture their own. so I think they (And starbase/Hanger defense) Should be exempt.
Haha,
Yeah well you're talking about the Sova and the carrier capital ships. NO one EVER builds them because they are worthless compared to just getting 4 light carriers which can support 8 strike craft wings.
Also the Sova's Embargo ability is trash and very difficult to use. Do you really think the opponent is gonna let you sit there? He'll focus fire on it with everything and it'll go down in a minute.
Sova (I'm sure the other faction's carrier caps too) need a straight up buff MORE than what is being discussed here.
-Let them start with 4 strike craft > Max of 9
-Make their strike craft slightly stronger than the light carrier's one AS the SOVA gains experience. As the Sova gains experience, the better its fighters.
-Embargo needs to be replaced with some combat-related ability.
But yeah folks, I think most of us agree that CAPs need a slight hp bonus and at the very minimum have flak turrents on them. I mean the ONLY NON-spammable units in the game are cap ships and they get wiped out by LF spam, HC spam, anything spam on your spam on my spam! SPAM!
Furthermore,
Several people brought up the idea of a Flak/Ageis Capital ship. Basically it's a Kol designed to wipe the floor with strike carrier but have only moderate ship dmg like Dunov support command capital ship. I think its a good idea to include one for each faction, and it could have up to 3 fighter bays of its own to help with the fighter on fighter combat.
I'll be pretty good trying to bait a carrier spam player with your Flak cap supporting your other ships.
e.g. - Use the Flak cap + 15 flak frigates to jump first (all the strike craft will attack these automatically) use flak burst, etc = no more fighter craft. Then jump in the rest of the fleet and type : Eat Flak bitch, suck it.
HOWEVER, the first step is to buff the flak frigates which is easier to implement, but I think another cap ship would be a good idea, since this cap ship will ACTUALLY BE HUGELY USEFUL unless of the lesser used caps around here...
Also the Sova's Embargo ability is trash and very difficult to use.
You're kidding, right? I certainly wouldn't bring out the Sova early (maybe second or third cap if I felt very secure, but typically that's not the case for TEC early game), but embargo is an absolutely awesome must-have ability late game. Identify a trade-port spammed planet and show up with a Sova-supported attack force and start raking in their cash. On a big map, it's harder to defend against this kind of harassment, and on a small one that's a huge chunk of their income.
Speak for yourself - Vasari carriers are indispensible, almost one of the best capitals they have.
Three level 6+ Vasari capital carriers + 8 light carriers = 31 strikecraft (aboutish, depends on levels).
With abilities, you suddenly have three capital ships, 17 light carriers, and 52 strikecraft.
Also it has the repair cloud, which is their only repair ability (and it's pretty awesome).
Embargo is ESPECIALLY nasty now in entrenchment with Starbases, I've managed to boost income by 21 credits per second by 1 spammed trade world including a maxed starbase trade facility. I think this also works in Star gravity wells, which are enormous, and if a player is attempted to get the sizeable bonus for creating a cross-system trade route using a starbase to bridge the gap, that is easy money.
I think, if anything, As Darvin3 said, capital ships need to be somehow less suceptible to Heavy cruiser force fire, especially the Vasari's shield bipassing attack which is just broken as all hell(Renders the Dunov completely useless). Maybe a passive ability common to all Capital ships like
"DAMAGE SCREEN":. Any Frigates or Cruisers within a certain range of the Capital ship, share and reduce any directed fire at it.
While I actually like the crappy Sova and its crappy Embargo (its the only reason I ever build the damn thing), the truth is I rarely get a chance to use the ability. The only times I've ever pulled it off where it made any difference in the game was a rush, and how often can you do that successfully? One out of every thousand games you play?
Choosing the Sova is an irrational act. Now, I actually make that irrational choice more often than I should, simply because I can't help thinking about how fun it would be if I COULD pull it off successfully. But I know, deep down, when I make the choice, that there is a 99% chance it ain't gonna happen, and I will be handicapped with the Sova at best, and will lose the game at worst.
I actually disagree with you that it is an awesome late game ability. It isn't. By the time late game arrives, you and your opponents are rich anyway, or there are so many planets in each of your empires that he won't even notice your stealing credits from one of them. Its the EARLY game where you have a shot at making a dent in somebody's wallet... but GOOD LUCK TRYING!
And what did you say? "Second or third cap?" You actually BUILD that many... early game no less? LMAO!
I'll repeat what I said above: are you sure you are actually hurting the other guy, and helping yourself, as much as you think you are? I'm guessing if you are attacking some guy's maxed out trade world, that ain't the only one he has. It's like, merely having such a thing implies that he must have them spammed throughout his empire. You sort of have to be rich to even afford to build such a thing.
Ugh...
In your opinion, how many LRMs should it take to knock down a capital ship?
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