One of the first things we're going to be beta testing for Elemental is a new way of doing computer AI. As some of you know, the main reason I got into development in the first place was to write computer AI for games.
Elemental is an opportunity to try some new things. For example, the initial betas of Elemental are going to require the user to be on the Internet to play. The reason is that the computer AI won't be inside the game itself but instead be implemented as AI players on the Impulse game cloud that we're building.
So you would, in effect, start up Elemental like you would a multiplayer game except that the people joining your game wouldn't be people. They would be AI people. And the AI work won't just be in how they play the game but how they behave -- in the lobby and elsewhere with the goal to make them feel like real people (except not jerks).
These AI players will have their own Impulse accounts with their own standings in the rankings, their own achievements, etc. The code won't execute on your machine, it'll be all server-based.
The final version of the game, of course, will not require the user to be on the Internet. We will bundle a number of the AI players in with the game to play single player, off-line games.
But what I hope to do is to build a cloud of multiplayer AI players that I can constantly be updating and enhancing in near-real time based on the data I get back from them on how they were beat, what exploits were used against them, what chat messages were sent to it that it needs to respond to (I'll probably have it respond "no speako English" for the most part).
In the final version of the game, these AI bots will be out there ready to join on-line games. We will give players the ability to discriminate against the robots if they have some sort of anti-robot issue and don't want them joining their multiplayer games. But the match-making system otherwise won't know which players are controlled by humans and which are controlled by the robots.
The nice thing is that for people who are used to playing with strangers on-line, the robots will help fill out the on-line community with people to play against who are explicitly designed to play like people (well like decent people not the people who drop immediately).
I expect the first version of this to be included with Beta 1 of Elemental (i.e. this isn't some "future" thing) which we expect will be out this Spring.
Jacques Ellul just about ruined my intellectual life, except that having read his Technological Society over a decade ago is essential to my thinking now. Tech determinism is even broader than microwaves to atom bombs: writing is a technology, after all...
You cant stop what will come to pass, skynet will be built and kill us all [e digicons]x_x[/e]
Hmm, personally im not much into the turn based games, but ive always been fasinated by the thought of an AI friend lol
Of course i dont think it will be possible to have a reasonable conversation with an AI any time soon, but having a reasonable AI player is gonna be the next best thing for now
Question 1, can i add an AI as a friend, and will i be able to invite him into my game and visa versa?
Question 2, will the AI for once in a game really understand if i write HELP ME!!! and send support to aid me and/or betray me?
Im starting to look forward to this game
I don't think we will need to add AI as a friend. I mean, I don't think the server based AI will be in the final... Maybe we will in beta 2 (the networking beta where things like friends and such I imagine might be introduced) but I'm pretty sure until then they are just going to join every game that is created.
there will be sever based in the final brad says so
I can't quickly find what I think I remember Brad typing on the subject, but I thought the plan for the RTM version was to have server-based AIs as an *option* for multiplayer. I didn't get the impression that singleplayer games would be server-dependent after the beta.
I thought it was pretty clear that the server-dependent AI was beta only.
It wouldn't make sense in the final unless Stardock was saving for some huge super-servers that could somehow handle AI in a way my personal PC could not. I can only imagine the kind of nightmare it would take to make that feasable for final release. As a beta tool though, there are many benifits, like being able to track games. Directly see when AI breaks (where we players might not notice as much), and better ensure that AI is treated like a player rather than just another bot.
Quoting , quoting post1) For example, the initial betas of Elemental are going to require the user to be on the Internet to play. The reason is that the computer AI won't be inside the game itself but instead be implemented as AI players on the Impulse game cloud that we're building. The AI work won't just be in how they play the game but how they behave -- in the lobby and elsewhere with the goal to make them feel like real people (except not jerks).These AI players will have their own Impulse accounts with their own standings in the rankings, their own achievements, etc. The code won't execute on your machine, it'll be all server-based. 2) The final version of the game will not require the user to be on the Internet. We will bundle a number of the AI players in with the game to play single player, off-line games. 3) what I hope to do is to build a cloud of multiplayer AI players that I can constantly be updating and enhancing in near-real time based on the data I get back from them on how they were beat, what exploits were used against them, what chat messages were sent to it that it needs to respond to (I'll probably have it respond "no speako English" for the most part). In the final version of the game, these AI bots will be out there ready to join on-line games. We will give players the ability to discriminate against the robots if they have some sort of anti-robot issue and don't want them joining their multiplayer games. But the match-making system otherwise won't know which players are controlled by humans and which are controlled by the robots.
For example, the initial betas of Elemental are going to require the user to be on the Internet to play. The reason is that the computer AI won't be inside the game itself but instead be implemented as AI players on the Impulse game cloud that we're building. The AI work won't just be in how they play the game but how they behave -- in the lobby and elsewhere with the goal to make them feel like real people (except not jerks).These AI players will have their own Impulse accounts with their own standings in the rankings, their own achievements, etc. The code won't execute on your machine, it'll be all server-based.
2)
The final version of the game will not require the user to be on the Internet. We will bundle a number of the AI players in with the game to play single player, off-line games.
3)
what I hope to do is to build a cloud of multiplayer AI players that I can constantly be updating and enhancing in near-real time based on the data I get back from them on how they were beat, what exploits were used against them, what chat messages were sent to it that it needs to respond to (I'll probably have it respond "no speako English" for the most part).
highlighted the important parts of the originial post to clarify
1) shows that the beta AI will be server based
2) shows the release version will come with AI based on your machine
3) shows that for online multiplayer, there will be server-based AI
Thanks, Szadowsz, that's the post I was not remembering well enough.
its no trouble
I know it's been a long time, and so much has happened since then, but I was just wondering ... is this still something you are looking into, Brad, or is this on the back burner, or in a completly different kitchen? I'm really keen on your AI. Thanks much.
Wow, haven't seen Necromancy of this caliber in ages! Dark times are upon us!
However it helped me discover this little gem and the question posed is very interesting to me as well!
So many old but excellent ideas are waiting to be implemented in FE!
ps I wrote something just to bump this interesting thread. Writing BUMP seemed too... dumb.
I did not post here merely to display my incredible skill in necromancy. This thread has been intruiging me since 2008 and I have linked to it in a number of my posts in 2009 and 2010.
I am truly interested in knowing whether this is still something that is "in the works". I ask also because I know that soon nobody will be reading this and people will be going crazy over the beta, which starts today (I got my email!). But primarily, this bit in Brad's original post, which I had not really noticed in 2008, I find tantalizing:
I'm interested in an up-to-date reply to this topic too.
Well obviously it won't be in FE since there is no MP as Brad mentioned And there was no real one in WOM so maybe this is a reason why this got canceled (and not AI problems). I like ambitious ideas like this one.
Maybe this was instance of "If you are not failing, then you are not trying hard enough" - I still would love to see this in some kind of future Addon/new game - Brad already stated that the AI has gotten a lot better. It would be very interesting. I'm also highly interested in AI So Brad please Answer.
My response to the question:
If I pass every Turing test, does it even matter?
I don't necessarily mean only the MP portion of Brad's original post. His post indicates many features of the AI which would be ascertainable in-game (and not only in game-creation portals or partner-matching).
Really? I think game devs need to push even harder for innovation and insane things people dream about, lol I mean, just look at the call of duty campaigns that consist of watching a cutscene and pressin E to win occasionally.Or fable 3 that has less depth and gameplay variation than the several decades old Ultima games in 2d, done on a budget you barely can make an indie title on these days.Or civ 5 that lacks features and depth that even vanilla civ 4 or civ 3 had, decades ago.Or sots2 that was not even playable at release, not because they aimed too high, but because it was not even playable at the most basic MS DOS quality-bar gameplay level. When moo3 has more depth you know something went wrong.Time and time again in the recent months, games and game devs are lazier and lazier. And we can all attribute it to reasonable excuses, such as publishers pushing for the release date, lacking budgets etc etc. But when the core result is that games these days keep getting simpler and simpler, less and less *omfg amazing*.. I don't think it is right to claim that game devs should be more conservative, i think that is very dangerous for the future of the games industry.
This is not aimed at Elemental or Stardock, which is one of my fav devs of all time, above Firaxis on my list even.It's just a general thought.
There is no success without risk. Without risk all we can achieve is mediocrity.(does not apply to graphics, no risk max profit everytime a game is based on it, sadly)
When you have $10'000'000 to invest you don't risk. More than 90% of game development companies are held by money-makers, not visionaries. That's why I hang out here.
Wait? So the AI's that I am currently playing against in Beta are NOT local? And they learn?
Hope they don't remember that I back stabbbed them last time and get the jump on me first this time
*translated from binary*
Not until we get kill-bot factory synched up with the knife factory.
Agreed, I just want to pub-stomp my own AI, Can you make it so i can discriminate human and AI players, and just send the AI logs to you guys, cause to me this sounds like a terrible idea, only viable if you really feel a bad bad desire to artificially inflate the Internet community with ai's that may or may not be on level with players.
I liked this game for its single player purpose, hoping there would be a multiplayer coop mode where I could play with a friend vs other team of AI players, since I/we want to be able to take our time, but want the enemies to be as fast as possible (hypocrites FTW). So I HOPE during the online season there would still be a beta available for us casual gamers, that even have a hard time on these forums ^^.
I do agree that playing on-line is an extremely efficient way to upgrade the AI players, but the whole community having to struggle to wait for the 200-300 AI players to become ready to do battle sounds horrific, and that is one of my primary concerns, I want to play this game casual, that means sometimes I restart a game just because I wanted to play a different race.
Alot of functions in this game does not fut multiplayer IMO, "The Spell of Making" is a terrible win condition for example, and I could argue about the game mechanics further, but that will be for another thread.
As for some people being concerned being shut out of the preorder beta, I certainly do hope I am still allowed some FE action during this beta, or it will kill my mood to play this game, meaby some off-line beta for the other beta testers, so they aren't left out completely.
Me feels like I am probably going to be left out of the beta soon .
Sincerely~ Kongdej
While this idea is great for building up the AI, It is terrible if this is the solution for lack of Multiplayer.
Just my 2 cents.
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