The bankers are deservedly copping a hard time for their greed and economic mismanagement, but let's not leave out/forget there are others deserving of our disdain and anger. This was over at the Consumerist site:
"Here's a sad little saga. After convincing our government that it was responsible enough and commercially viable enough to deserve a multi-billion-dollar bailout, Chrysler spent some of the money taking out full page ads in The Wall Street Journal and USAToday, thanking America for its money. They also posted these ads proudly on their blog. The reaction from actual Americans was, um, harsh."
For more, and the backlash comments see here
Stupidity seems to be in an abundance thoughout the business world these days (and government, so it seems)... but to advertise it in a national publication is beyond stupid. Talk about going from the sublime to the ridiculous! Hopefully, Barack Obama will put a stop to these business bailouts - if a company isn't good enough to trade its own way out of trouble it will continue to fail regardless - and start jailing some of these high flyers for corporate fraud/public embezzlement and etc.
I particularly agree with this part from one of the backlash comments: "even if your company fails, you will have your golden parachute stitched with money taken from the pockets of people who are losing their homes, their jobs, and their ability to provide for their family....". As always, the average bloke gets flushed down the toilet while the rich keep get richer off dirty dealing/underhanded tactics.
Well said Starkers. These Chrysler folk are a bunch of wankers plain and simple. Talk about insensitive.
Ditto here in the UK. Northern Rock, a failed lender bailed out by public money (my money) who lost peoples' savings, have just handed out £9 million in bonuses to its staff...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1125468/Its-bonus-time-nationalised-Northern-Rock-Failed-banks-staff-share-9m-pay-day.html
All corporate high rollers. Whenever they get executive raises and bonuses, those golden parachute payouts, it comes from the small mans pockets. If these payments were based on productivity and/or profitability they would be a 'little' more palatable, but more often than not the complete opposite is true and they are just feathering their own nests with little or no regard for the company, small investors, lower echelon employees or the customers. Those big banks went guts up because of high roller greed, and the same is true of many companies stuggling today... if their executives and high rollers didn't gouge so much they'd be... we'd all be much better off.
When it comes down to employment basics, the one constant we have to offer is our time... the hours we are willing to put in for our jobs/employers, so why is a corporate banker's time worth more than a plumber's or electician's... even a street sweeper's or refuse collector's? The simple truth is that it is not worth more! Given that we all get varying times on this planet, and then only some of those are dedicated to our working lives, there can be no accurate measure as to how much anyone's time is worth.
Some will argue that they are paid more because of their expertise. Yeah, right! We all see and are suffering the effects of the bankers expertise... and they are still getting fat, undeserved bonuses after the massive bailout funded by the average joe. I'd like to see one of them wire a house... much less a skyscraper. An electrician does an apprenticeship and attends college to become qualified, but a lot of high flyers get to where they are with the gift of the gab, the ability to bullshit and stabbing others in the back.
Others will argue that executives get more because they take risks. Oh yeah, so the factory floor worker doesn't risk losing a limb every time he/she starts up a machine, and the electrician, risking electrocution every time he connects to the mains... while the exec sits in his comfy air-conditioned office with his/her feet up???
Nope, it all comes down to time... and a high roller's time is worth no more than the housewife who stays at home to raise her children to the best of her ability. And it's about time we the people, the backbone of every developed country, the rank and file whose work supports the hierarchy, banded together and said: "NO MORE!"
It's about time governments started jailing these people... cos you can bet your last tuppence ha'penny that the high rollers were to recipients there, not the rank and file who actually work for a living.
The money went to all staff. However, this is a failed organisation - why are they getting bonuses? One guy lost £114k in Northern Rock shares, why aren't they giving money back to people like that instead of giving it to the ones responsible for the failure?
It gets you angry.
Umm... just to lighten thing's up here [don't hit me starkers]
Well the only thing I can think there is that Northern Rock has a disproportionate number of upper echelon staff and very few lower level workers... cos corporations look out for the big nobs, very rarely (if ever) the daily grinder.
It's just another in a case of too many... where they look out for No1 and say "f**k the rest".
Yes, it's sad that people have lost their life savings due to banker greed and stupidity, but as always, the banks have a 'look out for our own' mentality... and the small investor gets screwed. Yes, it makes me angry alright... livid, in fact.
Me? Hit you? Nah, I'm a pacifist... with one exclusion... bankers.
OK, two.... dirty rotten, low-down and greedy corporate big nobs.
If I had my way, there's be sets of stocks set up in every city for corporate high rollers... where we could pelt them with rotten fruit and other putrid missiles.
If it's any consolation, my brother is a bank robber
The most important function of any society (our collective human race) is the successful rearing of children to be able to carry on the race.
Our teachers and mothers/and or rearers are the most important societal members in this respect as the children are our future.
The rest of society fill functions around that central core, to support, nurture and protect it.
It's time we recognize that fact and show the important ones how important they are and why. Money has become an objective means of doing so, but more important is the public recognition and validation of this fact in our words and conduct.
As for the ones who behave in a way as to destroy these "little people" their fates and fortunes should be altered and used to refund the monies of these hard working and little appreciated anonymous "drones" the "high flyers" believe are there to be used and disposed of like so many rags (if thought of at all).
To be forced to work from cradle to grave; to enter this world owing tens of thousands of dollars; to starve to death at an early age (viz. Africa) in order to provide someone else with gold plated toilet fixtures and properties uneeded, to use 90% of the world's resources in order to propagate this master/slave system is as unconscionable as it is intolerable.
One cannot tell me that it's impossible to find those responsible nor where those monies went. Governments have the organs necessary to investigate and find these answers and we should settle for no less.
Part of the answer isn't going to make us happy, because it's our greed as well. Anyone who invests is part of the system: it's success or failings are apportioned.
However, the little investor didn't know of, nor understand and determine the ridiculous and irresponsible policies that precipitated this mess. It seems that those who did are the least to suffer, and that too is intolerable.
We can do little more than voice our feelings. We should do that in the proper quarters, and firmly resolve "No more trust and 'remote control'". We must be 'eyes and hands on at all times'.
No...actually its about time "the people" started jailing...tarring and feathering government officials for the outright in your face greed and rewarding that greed with even more greed.And don't even get me started on this "vote yourself a raise" issue. Someone needs to remind these people they are "civil servants!!!!" And we are not they're private piggy banks!!!!
I hate to say it but I really don't feel sorry for anyone anymore. Everyone sits around not wanting to get involved because of either apathy or for some stupid reason are afraid of their own government. Remember this...there are a hell of a lot more of us than there are of them...what the hell is anyone afraid of? I mean seriously...I saw this coming the day GW announced his crusade against terrorist...as though he could ever really accomplish that. There are more people dead now because of GW than before he entered office. And please...don't tell me it isn't true. Mission accomplished my ass!
What I want to know is how the hell idiots like this get elected...are people really that stupid?...twice even? As far as I'm concerned he should go down as the worst president & VP in the history of presidents VP's...and should...along with his crony Cheney...be held accountable and made to repay the country for what they've done. Only in America can a VP shoot someone in the face and get an apology from the one being shot. What's wrong with this picture?
Until people in this country...America...wake they're collective asses up and start protesting like we did in the 60's it's just going to continue and possibly get worse...well...it is going to get worse...we haven't hit rock bottom just yet...but it's coming. This so-called bailout should have been stopped dead in its tracks. Who gives a rats ass if ford goes out of business...what makes them so special...lots of businesses are in worse shape than they are...and some are now even gone! Yeah...ford needs more money so they can build more cars that most of us can't afford even now. How the hell is this going to stimulate the economy!? Give the people the money...the economy will be stimulated the next day!
And the nerve of them to show up asking for money in private jets and limos!! Sell the damn things and restructure your business...lay off...NO...fire your ceo's that collect a fat paycheck for doing nothing and try and get back on your feet like the rest of us. I'm tired of eating rice and living in the dark so these greedy corporate fat cats that don't know how to run a business can get the government to give them our money!!
Ok...venting over...let the carnage continue!
@ #10
Very nicely said, Doc, you pretty much summed it up in a few short and concise paragraphs... excellent!
Precisely, and wealth or the lack thereof does not make a child become a better a better adult. It's the dedicated love, care and nurturing that helps them becpme decent human beings. If anything, excess wealth spoils a child and they grow up to be just as spoiled, self-centered and greedy as the social circle they spent their formulative years with.
Again, spot on! The monies were never theirs to begin with, but rather gained by ill-gotten means (faud and embezzlement) and should be returned to the rightful owners... the people they stole it from. Funny, isn't it, you frequently hear about little people being charged with piracy, copyright theft, and illegal mucic/movie downloads... from the rich corporations, but how often do we hear about rich corporations being charged and convicted of stealing from us??? Seems to me there is a double standard operating there. If you're rich you cansuccessfully prosecute such things... and if you're rich, successfully defend/get away with them as well. But if you're poor, go suck an egg.
Precisely! There is always a paper trail, even with electronic transfer/banking, if not moreso, so yes, governments can trace these funds and those responsible fore their misappropriation... into personal bank accounts in many cases, particularly with the bankers and their self-awarded bonuses from investors funds... and yes, these mongrels should be prosecuted and imprisoned for their roles in causing the greatest financial collapse since the Great Depression.
I know there will be some who will try to blame it on people taking out greater mortgages than they could afford... and to that I say BOLLOCKS!! Most people took out mortgages in good faith to buy/build themselves a family home, but with bad bank advice and goading, bank greed hiking up interest rates, and banks getting themselves in the shit with poor decisions, those mortgages got quickly out of hand.... oh, and let's not forget stagnant salaries/wages, frozen at yesteryear levels in today's inflationary world. And again, that is corporate greed, wanting maximum profit for the barest minimum outlay.
Yes, we should voice our concerns in the proper quarters... to our elected representatives, and demand they take action against the corporate thieves who responsible for this economic chaos we're in. For the suffering they have caused... the ongoing suffering many will experience for some years yet, prison terms are not enough. All their assets (which are ill-gotten gain and never truly theirs to begin with) should be siezed to pay back the small investors of this wholesale theft and fraud.
Oh and last but not least....
I have never invested in companies, stocks, bonds or whatever. Given that I have always been at the lower end of the income scale, all my money has gone towards living and I have never had the spare cash to invest. However,I have never been that greedy to want more money than I really need, so get rich quick investment schemes have never been my bag. I've never had wealth or a surplus of cash... nor do I want it. So long as I have enough to live on with a little left over that's all that matters... while a few additional material extras would be nice here and there, I have everything I need and I'll die no worse off if I never get them. Sure is a pity more of the fabulously wealthy with more than they could ever reasonably spend in a lifetime or 3 didn't think more similarly, rather than greedily wanting to accumulate more.
Oh, and before anybody starts preaching about the super rich giving to charity, DON'T. During the 'Feed the World' campaign started by Bob Geldoff during the 80's, my girlfriend of the time and I were assigned a rather affluent suburb of Brisbane to doorknock, while our friends were assigned an ordinary working-class suburb. We collected just $47.20 from 6 hours of doorknocking, while our friends collected over $1260 in the same period. Pretty woeful turnout, don't you think, that those with the least to give gave the most, while those with the least to give put them to shame. To me, the greatest acts of charity are not those where the person has so much they'll never miss it, but rather those who give when they have the least to spare.
Thanks, Cap'n...you have money in it's right place. Bloody good on ya!!!!! I also meant (when on a rant I lose track...who am I kidding? I lose track because I'm a senile roo) by not sitting on the Politicians day and night and scrutinizing their every move. Here in the States we have a saying, "What's the definition of a 'good politician'? One that stays bought."
And that's one thing I'm adamant about: The separation of money from politics. Obama has made a start in this direction, but absolute separation is necessary. Our Supreme Court has ruled that would infringe (that word again, eh Jafo?) on first amendment free speech rights. Well, here's the work around: Every contribution goes into the common election fund and PUBLISHED: Name amount and intended recipient. Like apples, Your Honor? Well how's them apples?!
If it wasn't for the mob mentality that can turn good but desperate people into less than animals I would agree with you. Do they deserve it? Hell yes... in triplicate, but we as civilised societies have put in place measures to protect ourselves from this kind of thing, and we would be hypocrites to take those laws into our own hands simply because we are angry. Sure, the politicians who bent to these corporate thieves need to be dealt with, but it needs to be done within the bounds of civilised society or we become worse than them.
True, politicians are not going to pass laws which can hurt them, and yes, they have governmental priveleges, but there are still ways to bring them down... and like you say, people power is the way to do it... legally. I don't live in the US, but I know about unpopular.. even hated politicians retaining their seats at every election because of electoral boundaries being drawn in their favour and the like, so yeah, you have a few electorally advantaged incumbents who have outlasted their usefulness and need to go. The US Constitutiuon was formulated so that no president could ever serve more than 2 terms, so use the constitution and whatever else to oust those 'passed their use by date' politicians who have become so entrenched in corruption (corporate and otherwise) it has become a way of life to them.
It can be done through people power if people are willing to get into the political shit fight, not necessarily as senators or congressmen, but at grass root levels, in the electoral and party offices, etc.... it's hard for incumbents to retain their seats if they aren't nominated/party preferred.....
Think about it. Here in the US, we raise our children to be cheats/crooks from the start. What do our parents do and its passed down**** How to cheat on your taxes.....Government made that harder for the common peson a dozen years ago but not for businesses. Then they say, its OK to do this so we can do that.
Having worked for a couple different banks (im a software developer) Its amazing they run well at all. Not to mention they really have a good system for squeezing blood from a rock. They have mechanisms in place that allow them to gather interest every night through their direct deposit accounts (DDA). These accounts are basically accounts belonging to you and I. What really tweaks me is the amount of money they make and still charge an ATM fee. NO bank really needs to do that. But I guess someone needs to pay for the CEO and board members salary or what.
I remember being asked to make a financial report to have data show up a certain way to mask whatever it was they didnt want to show. I baulked.
That isn't how I raised mine, mate. They all have jobs and work their little tushies off. None been to jail, either. They're far from perfect though that's on me, not their mom.
Good for you! Also probably the last thing you said there. Honesty is the best policy, although the bigwigs enjoy their power th royally screw you if you dare to speak truth to power.
Corporate money and politics should never be seen or heard... it opens too many cans of corrupt worms. As for the "free speech rights" thing, I fail to see how denying the involvement of corporate money in politics is an infringement. Money does not talk and therefore does not in any way represent 'free speech'.... the fact that money is involved implies it is NOT free. The only way a corporate figure should be able to claim an infringement of fee speech is if/when he/she is denied the opportunity to verbally endorse a candidate of choice.... I say choice because if they were solicited and paid to give an endorsement then it was bought and therefore not indicatve of 'free speech'.
The other thing is to kill the'done to death' campaign and media circuses at every election. Much of it is pure overkill and totally unnecessary... most people vote according to their party preference, and no amount of hype will change that, and without those hugely obscene expenses the need for corporate money is greatly reduced and can be eliminated. More importantly and just as effective, if Americans refuse to participate in the exorbitant campaign hype and glitz it would eventually go away, thus saving billions that could better be spent elsewhere.
At our last general election I was approached by our local member of parliament to put one of his glitzy advertising banners in my front yard... I presume because we are in a prominent position. However, I told him that I didn't believe a word he says, that he had spent and obscene amount of money on advertising to promote his lies, and that he could fuck off cos there was no way he was putting that obscenity in my front yard. Bastard lied and betrayed my mother at the previous election when she needed help with her aged pension payments, so yeah, like I was going to help him after she'd helped him and he broke his subsequent promise to her....
Moral to the story... don't give politicians the power or momentum by attending the rallies or participating in their personal electioneering, etc. Politicians are not all powerful, and if you refuse to entertain their electioneering whims and fancies they have nobody to lie to and will go away.
What you have told us here is that banks are unscrupulously greedy, dishonest and underhanded. I think most of us suspected that, but thank you very much for sharing your inside knowledge that which we suspected but as laymen could never prove. The most pertinent point to me was your being asked to implement means to cover up/hide information. That in itself is an indictment on the very institutions we are forced to trust with our money/do business with.
Sadly it is the Dems, and seemingly Pres Obama, that are the major proponents of the bailouts - especially those in the auto industry which is the home of one of their primary sources of contributions. Can any one say 'labor unions' boys and girls?
And, unfortunately, although it does seem most visible in the corp world the issue of 'greed' is not limited to just the folk in three piece suits. Although much of the problems in the banking industry were brought on by questionable lending practices a lot of the blame goes right back to the Joe Lunchbucks who didn't think any farther down the pike than how quickly they thought they could 'flip' the house they bought or, somehow, convinced themselves that they really could afford a $300k home even if the combined family income was around $35k.
As with all things human as the old saying from Pogo goes - 'we has met the enemy, and they is us!'
Well I ain't fighting with you, hallv5. The faulty policies (and dumb NAFTA) started under the Clinton Administration, but I don't believe it was with the intent that anything like this would occur: Rather, I believe it was to try to help the people disadvantaged in the past, much the same as the reasons GinnieMae and FannieMay were started.
Things got way out of hand by the implementation of the "No Collateral/No Income" loans that were made so the paper could be sold to China/Asia where the money was sitting (for good reason: They actually makie things!). These are major Felons. What? The thought ANY commodity (Real Estate) will continue to rise didn't bother ANYONE? Nonsense and Greed.
There was a commentator on CNN last nite telling of a Wall Street friend who was unhappy at making $2,000.000 per year. He complained that at that pace it'd take a decade to make $20 million! Well! Can't have that, can we?
That is the root of this evil. Impossibly greedy, disconnected, dysfunctional, unethical and immoral felons who need rounding up and jail. Along with Joe Lunchbucks, who saw what was going on and wanted his...no matter how.
My posts echo yours regarding eveyone's role in this and didn't bother with the quting stuff...sorry.
Here is an idea to the beauracrats (right spelling?) anyway, how about bailing out the family down the street that is losing their home, fighting to put food on the table, oh i really shouldnt get into this, i get so angry, when the "average Joe and his family get screwed once again" but there is a positive note, i truly believe our new president Barack Obama will do good things, I have a lot of faith in this man, havent had that since JFK, (even though i was a young whippersnapper)
I knew it!!!! Someone just had to put the blame back on the average joe, didn't they!!! Before making this comment, did you do any research into how the banks convince lower income earners how they could easily have afforded the $300k mortgage? Yup, there was the: "We'll keep interest down and extend the life of the loan so your monthly repayment is affordable." or the: "Look, interest is really low right now and there's no better time to buy as we can tailor a mortgage to suit your needs and ability to pay."
And on top of that, there were unscrupulous realtors doing anything and everything underhanded to make a sale. One realtor, in Illinois I believe, was actually telling prospective customers that his agency would pay the deposit and it would be absorbed by charging the vendor more. However, the truth was that it got tacked on the purchase price but hidden on the overall contract in supposed taxes and state fees... thus hiking up interest payments via the larger principle loan.
Where did I get this information?? The BBC's US News Service... which I believe to be unbaised because it has no US agenda or axe to grind, unlike US based new services with political and corporate affiliations,
Then of course there were the ever increasing interest rates that went through the roof, while household incomes remained the same and/or grew less through enforced unemployment... and how their disposable funds lost value with inflation and rising prices: ie, fuel, food, clothing. etc. The average joe on a fixed income was not financially equipped to cater for these factors combined, and thus his/her propensity was drastically reduced.
The true enemy is bank and corporate greed... executives taking far more than they're worth.
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