kryo

Join Date 05/2003

+458

DA Combat System

A brief description of what's new, and an example.

The DA combat system has been completely overhauled from the way it worked in standard GC2. Here's how it *should* work (to the best of my understanding imparted from CodeCritter!). If you notice any inconsistencies in the game versus what is described here, please report them along with screenshots and as many details as you can provide.

First off, the changes:

1) Weapons now target individually. If a ship has multiple weapons and destroys its target with some weapons still unused, those weapons will be fired at the next enemy in line, and so on until all weapons have been fired. The order weapons are used in is based on which is most effective against the present target.

Note: the current 2A build does not account for all sources of defense or defense degradation as mentioned in 2), only the max value of the specific opposing class-the next build will include these, as described in the example below.

2) As a ship takes damage within a single round, its maximum defense roll in the category of the weapon that hit it is decreased by the amount of each hit. Each category (beam/missile/ballistic) is counted separately. The maximum defense rolls reset after each round.

3) Having the Super Warrior ability prevents opponents in battles you initiate from firing back in the first round until after the game checks if they've been destroyed. Ships that survive your opening volley will return fire, then the rest of the battle proceeds as normal.

4) Your luck ability affects the minimum roll on your weapons-your min roll is equal to your luck % times the max roll, up to 100% (at which point your weapons would always do max damage). So if you have a weapon with 10 attack and 50% luck, you'll roll 5-10! As with most other cases in the game, fractional amounts are simply dropped, so if you had 45% luck rather than 50%, you'd roll 4-10.

One more thing that isn't new to DA, but wasn't previously known: So-called critical hits occur when a battle is not resolved within a set amount of time (50 rounds for single combat, 300 for fleet combat). When the time limit is reached, the game determines which side is 'tougher' by the formula sqrt( ( 2 * Attack ) + Defense + ( Current HP / 2 ) ). Whichever side has the highest total result from that formula then proceeds to finish off the other side; each ship on the winning side fires one instant-death shot at one enemy until all the enemies are finished off.

Here's an example combat:

Arceans (attacking)
Battleship A: 2x Phasors VI (5 dmg ea.), 1x Quantum Driver (4 dmg), 6 Armor, 2 PD, 20 HP
Battleship B: 1x Phasors VI (5 dmg), 2x Quantum Driver (4 dmg ea.), 6 Armor, 2 PD, 20 HP

Torians (defending)
Frigate A: 2x Photon Torpedo (5 dmg ea.), 3 Shields, 1 Armor, 8 HP
Frigate B: 2x Photon Torpedo (5 dmg ea.), 3 Shields, 1 Armor, 12 HP
Frigate C: 2x Photon Torpedo (5 dmg ea.), 3 Shields, 1 Armor, 12 HP
Frigate D: 2x Photon Torpedo (5 dmg ea.), 3 Shields, 1 Armor, 12 HP

The Torians have just destroyed a Arcean ship in a surprise attack, and joined the sole survivor of that battle (Frigate A) up with a new fleet. The Arceans had a pair of battleships on patrol nearby, and are here looking for revenge.

The Arceans are attacking, so they get to fire first. Their super ability means they can get the drop on the Torians, and hopefully take out a ship or two before they're able to return fire. The targeting formula (Attack / [Defense+HP]) has not changed, so the injured Frigate A, being the easiest target, is up for punishment first.

The Arceans analyze the Torians' strengths and weaknesses. Frigate A can roll 0-4 (3+sqrt(1)) against the Arcean Phasors, and 0-2 (1+sqrt(3)) against the Quantum Drivers. If both sides roll their best, that would make for 1 damage from the Phasors, versus 2 damage from the Drivers. The Arcean captain orders his crew to open fire with the Quantum Drivers first.

The Arceans score a decent hit. They rolled 1-4 for the Quantum Driver, and got a 3. The Torians rolled only a 1 on defense. Frigate A's armor is damaged by the amount of the attack roll-3 points. Since the maximum roll was only 2, Frigate A is completely defenseless against mass drivers for the rest of this round. The Torian ship also receives 2 damage to its HP (3-1), leaving it with 6 HP.

Battleship A then prepares to fire each of its Phasor banks in turn:

BSA Attack roll (1-5) = 1
FA Defense roll (0-4) = 3

The Arceans only score a glancing blow with the first Phasor shot. What little damage was dealt was completely absorbed by the frigate's shields. The shields are down to 75%, with a potential roll of 0-3 against the next shot since they absorbed 1 from this one.

BSA Attack roll (1-5) = 1
FA Defense roll (0-3) = 1

Wow, it's a really bad day for the Arcean gunner. The Frigate's shields absorb the 1 point of damage and begin to flicker a bit. They're at 50% power now, with a potential roll of only 0-2 against whatever the second battleship's Phasor throws at them.

Battleship B moves into range of Frigate A and powers up its weapons. Since BSA punched straight through FA's armor, the captain of BSB opts to use the Quantum Drivers first (which this ship has two of). The target still has some shield power left, enough that optimal damage is more likely with the drivers.

BSB Attack roll (1-4) = 4
FA Defense roll (0-0) = 0!

BSB scores a direct hit! FA takes 4 damage to its HP, leaving it with 2 HP.

BSB Attack roll (1-4) = 3
FA Defense roll (0-0) = 0

Another hit! Though not quite as accurate, it is more than enough to overwhelm the damaged frigate. A bright flash and the galaxy has that many fewer of those pesky yellow critters lurking in it.

FA is destroyed.

BSB still hasn't used its Phasor bank this round. That's all they have left, so they just take a potshot at Frigate B:

BSB Attack roll (1-5) = 3
FB Defense roll (0-4) = 3

Frigate B's shields swallow the hit whole, but it takes them down to 25%. The Torian engineer reports that he'll have the shields back up to full before the Arceans can reload their weapons, though, so the captain of Frigate B isn't worried.

The surprise of the Arcean attack has worn off, though it's too late for Frigate A. Frigate B prepares to give the Arceans what's coming to them.

All the Torian frigates are equipped with are Photon Torpedoes, so there's no analysis needed-that's what they're using first (and last, and only!). BSA has a potential defense roll of 0-4 (2+sqrt(6)).

FB Attack roll (1-5) = 5
BSA Defense roll (0-4) = 3

The Arceans drop all the chaff they can, but it's not enough. The torpedo hits BSA squarely in the chaff launcher, knocking out the ship's anti-missile defenses for the rest of the round and dealing 2 damage to its HP (potential defense roll 0-0, 18 HP left).

FB Attack roll (1-5) = 4
BSA Defense roll (0-0) = 0

Defenseless, BSA can do nothing but take whatever damage the torpedoes deal… and there are two more Torian ships ready to fire theirs. FC and FD open fire without delay (BSA now has 14 HP left):

FC Attack roll (1-5) = 4
BSA has 10 HP left.
FC Attack roll (1-5) = 5
BSA has 5 HP left.

FD Attack roll (1-5) = 5
BSA is destroyed!

The Torians really pummeled that battleship, whose smoking wreckage is now floating away from the battle. Frigate D has one torpedo left in its tubes, and it's got Battleship B's name written on it.

FD Attack roll (1-5) = 3
BSB Defense roll (0-4) = 3

The Arceans got lucky-their chaff managed to successfully prevent the missile from striking the ship. They've only got 1 unit left in the launcher, but that's fine-they have some time to get it reloaded before the Torians do likewise with their torpedo tubes.

The first round of the battle is complete. All armor, shields, and point defenses on the ships are repaired, recharged, or reloaded, and they're ready for more. The battle now stands as follows:

Arceans (attacking)
Battleship B: 1x Phasors VI (5 dmg), 2x Quantum Driver (4 dmg ea.), 6 Armor, 2 PD, 20 HP

Torians (defending)
Frigate B: 2x Photon Torpedo (5 dmg ea.), 3 Shields, 1 Armor, 12 HP
Frigate C: 2x Photon Torpedo (5 dmg ea.), 3 Shields, 1 Armor, 12 HP
Frigate D: 2x Photon Torpedo (5 dmg ea.), 3 Shields, 1 Armor, 12 HP

The Arceans' special ability won't help them this time-both sides will fire simultaneously in this round. What will happen? The Arceans are now quite a bit outgunned, but they won't go down without a fight. Unfortunately for them, that's as far as this story goes.

Hopefully this has been helpful to everyone in understanding the new battle system. If you've got any questions, post away.

-----------------------------------------

Update, effective as of 1.6 beta 4, according to CodeCritter's post on another thread:

The battle system still works as it did before. The only change is how the max defenses are decreased over the course of the round.

Off-type defenses still use the sqrt function when rolling. What the beta 4 system does is roll a 0 - sqrt (sum of offtypes) for defense. The sum of offtypes changes are the offtypes are decreased after each attack roll.

So, a more DETAILED description of my previous example would be:

Ship 1 ( Attack: B: 14 M: 0 MD: 0 ) 7 weapons, 2 beam attack each

Ship 2 ( Defense: B: 0 M: 6 MD: 4 ) HP: 20

1. Ship 1 Weapon 1 rolls 1 attack, Defense rolls 0 - sqrt ( 6 + 4 ) and gets 2. Damage done is attack 1 - defense 2 so no damage is done. Ship 2 missile defenses are greater than mass driver defenses,they are decreased by the value of the attack roll 1.

Ship 2 defenses are now ( B: 0 M: 5 MD: 4 ) HP: 20.

2. Ship 1 Weapon 2 rolls 2 attack. Defense rolls 0 - sqrt ( 5 + 4) and gets a 1. Damage done is attack 2 - defense 1, so 1 hp is removed. Ship 2 missile defenses are greater than mass driver defenses, so they are decreased by 2.

Ship 2 defenses are now ( B: 0 M: 3 MD: 4 ) HP: 19

3. Ship 1 Weapon 3 rolls 2 attack. Defense rolls 0 - sqrt ( 3 + 4 ) and gets a 0. Damage done is attack 2 - defense 0, so 2 hp is removed. Ship 2 mass driver defenses are now greater than missile defenses, so they are decreased by 2

Ship 2 defenses are now ( B: 0 M: 3: MD: 2 ) HP: 17

4. Ship 1 Weapon 4 rolls 1 attack. Defense rolls 0 - sqrt ( 3 + 2 ) and gets a 2. Damage done is attack 2 - defense 2, so 0 hp is removed. Ship 2 missile defenses are greater than mass driver defenses, so they are decreased by 1

Ship 2 defenses are now ( B: 0 M: 2 MD: 2 ) HP: 17

5. Ship 1 Weapon 5 rolls 2 attack. Defense rolls 0 - sqrt ( 2 + 2 ) and gets a 1. Damage done is attack 2 - defense 1, so 1 hp is removed. Ship 2 off type defenses are equal, so one type is randomly selected. This time mass drivers are randomly chosen, so they are decreased by 2

Ship 2 defenses are now ( B: 0 M: 2 MD: 0 ) HP : 16

6. Ship 1 Weapon 6 rolls 2 attack. Defense rolls 0 - sqrt ( 2 + 0 ) and gets a 0. Damage done is attack 2 - defense 0, so 2 hp is removed. Ship 2's missile defenses are greater than mass driver defenses, so they get decreased by 2

Ship 2 defenses are now ( B: 0 M: 0 MD: 0 ) HP: 14

7. Ship 1 Weapon 7 rolls 1 attack. Ship 2 has no defenses, so the attack will be able to do its full measure of damage. No defenses are left so no defenses get decreased.

Ship 2 defenses are now ( B: 0 M: 0 MD: 0 ) HP: 13

8. Ship 2 fires its weapons in the same manner

9. At the beginning of the next round, each ship's defenses are restored to their full values.

When the attacker has two different weapon types, how do you degrade defenses?

Ephafn is right. Each shot is fired is done in succession. So the first shot would decrease whichever defense was greater (or randomly pick which if they are equal). Then the second shot would have to go up against the changed defense values.

I hope this clears things up. If you still have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask

faq support

Pinned, Locked Post +1 Karma

Advanced Search

Watch this post

Do not email me updates for this post Email me updates for this post

Successfully updated karma reason!

bbr91

Nice write up Kryo and thx for the information

. Definitely explains the *whys* behind what I've been seeing in terms of combat.

I'm going to pay attention to the combat viewer to see if this information is displayed. Would be nice to have it break out the attacks just as you did showing the defenses dropping as the onslaught of the round continues.

This certainly goes a long way towards balancing out capital ships vs. large fleets of smaller ships. Personally I tend towards the latter but with this information I may start mixing my fleets more in line with WWII naval battle groups. Instead of a fleet of nothing but medium hulls I may go more for something like 1 large, 2 medium, 3-4 small depending on my logistics at the time.

Successfully updated karma reason!

1) Weapons now target individually. If a ship has multiple weapons and destroys its target with some weapons still unused, those weapons will be fired at the next enemy in line, and so on until all weapons have been fired. The order weapons are used in is based on which is most effective against the present target.

FINALLY!

!!! I hate to have a Big mean battle ship unload 20 deathrays on a single fighter when there are 20 of the 'lil buggers! The fighters greatest fear has come

It's time to kick a** and chew bubble gum!! and I'm all outta gum.

Thank you Kryo for putting this feature in!

Successfully updated karma reason!

kryo

Join Date 05/2003

+458

Thank you Kryo for putting this feature in!

I'm just the messenger--thank the devs

Successfully updated karma reason!

For clarification:

Note: the current 2A build does not account for all sources of defense or defense degradation as mentioned in 2), only the max value of the specific opposing class-the next build will include these, as described in the example below.

This is referring to the weapon selection algorithm that picks the order the weapons on a ship fire. It only looks at the max value of the opposing class defense and the max attack of the weapon's class when comparing weapons. Newer builds will account for starbase defense assist bonuses and defense degradation.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Is it me or this system discourage using fleets with more than one weapon type? Since for each different weapon type you will have to go through the full defense, it would be weaker than having only one type and using the defense degradation to its full potential.

As an aside, I'm quite happy to see a very clear benefit from the luck ability. We should start to fear Universalist Altarians from now on...

Successfully updated karma reason!

With luck playing such a huge role in the attack roles, that could make the ability really powerful. Stock DL luck seems mainly for random events and lucky exploration and colonization.

What about a tech branch that allowed the player to increase their luck a bit mid game... or better yet, a targeting computer tech branch? Each unit mounted on the ship increases the minimum damage per shot. Of course, that'd mean moving the minimum damage calculation away from luck and into a "targetting" ability...

Successfully updated karma reason!

Was Luck always a factor in combat? The Altarians have never really done all that well in my games.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Luck never stopped me from rolling the occasional low attack value, so I don't think so.

Successfully updated karma reason!

DivineWrath

Join Date 05/2006

+135

I knew about item #1, but only noticed item #2 in my recent game.

It involved the Drath getting that 10x influence event, and all the other races planets started revolting like a bunch of dominos. I declared war in order to prevent them from winning an influence on me. Unfortunately, they had nearly 3/4s of the planets at the time, and had a powerful military.

My powerful ships were designed to fight the Thalans in a previous war, and were not suited to face the Drath threat. I invested in military starbases, and spammed weak ships that could benefit from these bases. I found it a little odd that my ships dealt very little damage at first, but then slowly dealt more damage, as though their defenses were disappearing. I guess item #2 explains a few things.

And the moral of the story is:
Military Starbases just got a whole lot stronger!

Successfully updated karma reason!

The Arceans score a decent hit. They rolled 1-4 for the Quantum Driver, and got a 3. The Torians rolled only a 1 on defense. Frigate A's armor is damaged by the amount of the attack roll-3 points. Since the maximum roll was only 2, Frigate A is completely defenseless against mass drivers for the rest of this round. The Torian ship also receives 2 damage to its HP (3-1), leaving it with 6 HP.

Battleship A then prepares to fire each of its Phasor banks in turn:

BSA Attack roll (1-5) = 1
FA Defense roll (0-4) = 3

Do I understand correctly from the example:

Each ship have 3 stats that can be degraded corresponding to the defense against each kind of weapons. The 3 stats are calculated from the defenses in the the fields (shield, armor, ECM) but they need to be degraded individually, meaning that mixed weapons are less effective to pass throught defense

Successfully updated karma reason!

kryo

Join Date 05/2003

+458

Correct.

Successfully updated karma reason!

MarvinKosh

Join Date 08/2005

+87

When your enemy begins employing defences against your most prevalent weapon type, your new ships should once again tip the balance in your favour by adding a weapon which isn't stopped so well by your enemy's defence systems. In the original example above, phasors weren't fired first because the enemy had decent shielding against them. Firing the quantum drivers first gives the best chance of lowering the overall defence and thus allowing the phasors the best opportunity to knock out the shields. Armour or no armour, they also give a chance to inflict extra damage that might not have been scored by a ship filled with phasors.

Successfully updated karma reason!

All the Torian frigates are equipped with are Photon Torpedoes, so there's no analysis needed-that's what they're using first (and last, and only!). BSA has a potential defense roll of 0-4 (2+sqrt(6)).

FB Attack roll (1-5) = 5
BSA Defense roll (0-4) = 3

The Arceans drop all the chaff they can, but it's not enough. The torpedo hits BSA squarely in the chaff launcher, knocking out the ship's anti-missile defenses for the rest of the round and dealing 1 damage to its HP (potential defense roll 0-0, 18 HP left).

I'm not sure I see what the actual defense roll (in this case a 3 vs an attack of 4) is needed for, since the attack roll will subtract from the max defense roll, whatever the actual defense roll is.
Also, it seems to me that the BSA should actually have 19 HP left, not 18.

The Arceans analyze the Torians' strengths and weaknesses. Frigate A can roll 0-4 (3+sqrt(1)) against the Arcean Phasors, and 0-2 (1+sqrt(3)) against the Quantum Drivers. If both sides roll their best, that would make for 1 damage from the Phasors, versus 2 damage from the Drivers. The Arcean captain orders his crew to open fire with the Quantum Drivers first.

The Arceans score a decent hit. They rolled 1-4 for the Quantum Driver, and got a 3. The Torians rolled only a 1 on defense. Frigate A's armor is damaged by the amount of the attack roll-3 points. Since the maximum roll was only 2, Frigate A is completely defenseless against mass drivers for the rest of this round. The Torian ship also receives 2 damage to its HP (3-1), leaving it with 6 HP.

Battleship A then prepares to fire each of its Phasor banks in turn:

BSA Attack roll (1-5) = 1
FA Defense roll (0-4) = 3

Something fishy here. Defense rolls are actually stronger than what the defenses should be separately? FA, after losing all armor to the drivers, still rolls 0-4 (which takes armor into account)? Armor hasn't replenished yet. And so haven't the shields that were partially knocked out by the drivers...

Successfully updated karma reason!

kryo

Join Date 05/2003

+458

I'm not sure I see what the actual defense roll (in this case a 3 vs an attack of 4) is needed for, since the attack roll will subtract from the max defense roll, whatever the actual defense roll is.

Yes, defenses are degraded by the full attack amount, but the defense roll determines how much of that attack is absorbed by the defenses, and how much goes to HP as damage.

Also, it seems to me that the BSA should actually have 19 HP left, not 18.

Fixed (had revised the numbers to fit in different example stuff from what it was initially and missed that in the rewrite).

Yes, non-optimal defenses are still included at sqrt(max) value in defense rolls, regardless of any degradation that happened from the non-optimal type's opposing weapon.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Yes, defenses are degraded by the full attack amount, but the defense roll determines how much of that attack is absorbed by the defenses, and how much goes to HP as damage.

That's what I thought, but so what about this:

FB Attack roll (1-5) = 5
BSA Defense roll (0-4) = 3

The Arceans drop all the chaff they can, but it's not enough. The torpedo hits BSA squarely in the chaff launcher, knocking out the ship's anti-missile defenses for the rest of the round and dealing 1 damage to its HP (potential defense roll 0-0, 18 HP left).

FB Attack roll (1-5) = 4
BSA Defense roll (0-0) = 0

5 attack, 3 are stopped by the defenses, only 1 HP damage, and next attack defenses are fully removed (and not 0-1)... something seems off there.

Yes, non-optimal defenses are still included at sqrt(max) value in defense rolls, regardless of any degradation that happened from the non-optimal type's opposing weapon.

Doesn't make much sense, and kind of defeats the purpose of knocking out one defense type.

Successfully updated karma reason!

kryo

Join Date 05/2003

+458

5 attack, 3 are stopped by the defenses, only 1 HP damage, and next attack defenses are fully removed (and not 0-1)... something seems off there.

Ok, *now* the math is fixed. 2 damage goes to HP there.

Successfully updated karma reason!

And shouldn't defense be 0-1, and not fully removed, since only 3 damage were assigned to a 0-4 defense?

Successfully updated karma reason!

kryo

Join Date 05/2003

+458

No. Max defense is decreased by the full amount of the attack roll, regardless of the defense roll.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Does this new system give rise to ship designs that load up ships on older weapons to counter fighters? For example, a person with phasor weaponry could load up fighter killer ships with a bunch of plasma weapons in order to increase the possibility of killing multiple ships in one volley without any weapon fire being wasted, at the expense of being able to do as much damage to larger ships. Is such a strategy viable?

If so, the size of missile weapons might bear some looking at. Missile weapons always decrease in size as you go up the tech level, whereas the jump from lasers to plasma entails a weapon with larger size (but double damage, to even that out).

Successfully updated karma reason!

No. Max defense is decreased by the full amount of the attack roll, regardless of the defense roll.

I think I understand why it is that way: to allow weapons that deals 1 damage to degrade any defense. But against a race that have 100% luck and big weapons, defense would degrade very very fastly.

Successfully updated karma reason!

No. Max defense is decreased by the full amount of the attack roll, regardless of the defense roll.

So in the situation described above, a 5 point attack takes out a 4-max defense and still hits the hull for 2, which makes it effectively a 6 point attack...
Now, if that defense roll had been a 1 or a 0... Ouch!

I think I understand why it is that way: to allow weapons that deals 1 damage to degrade any defense.

Hmm, you mean if the defense roll is 0? I don't see how if (part of the) damage bypasses a defense and hits the hull, that damage can affect said defense (having already affected the hull).

Successfully updated karma reason!

kryo

Join Date 05/2003

+458

Hmm, you mean if the defense roll is 0? I don't see how if (part of the) damage bypasses a defense and hits the hull, that damage can affect said defense (having already affected the hull).

He means that if you have a ship that can only deal 1 point of damage (such as a first-gen fighter with a single laser on it), you can still deal damage eventually to a ship with strong defenses, so long as you have enough fighters in your fleet. For example if you had an enemy with 10 shields and no other defense, a fleet of 11 fighters with only 1 point of attack each would be able to chip at least 1 HP off it each round (provided they all survive themselves!) even if the enemy ship rolled max defense every time, since the 11 fighters would be able to degrade the shields down to 0 eventually (after the tenth shot) with their tiny attacks.

Successfully updated karma reason!

I was talking about the max defense not being decreased by the full attack, but only by the fraction stopped by the defense. This scenario you describe is in no way different from any other, as each fighter would most probably chip away at the shield initially, lowering it, and one fighter would penetrate it eventually just like in your scenario above.

The targeting formula (Attack / [Defense+HP]) has not changed

Is this the only factor taken into account when calculating targeting? I mean, the first scenario is very linear, all ships in each side being the same. What if a specific ship in the opposing fleet is more of a threat because it packs the weapon type you have no counter for, but its targeting is lower than another you do?

Successfully updated karma reason!

One more thing that isn't new to DA, but wasn't previously known: So-called critical hits occur when a battle is not resolved within a set amount of time (50 rounds for single combat, 300 for fleet combat). When the time limit is reached, the game determines which side is 'tougher' by the formula sqrt( ( 2 * Attack ) + Defense + ( Current HP / 2 ) ). Whichever side has the highest total result from that formula then proceeds to finish off the other side; each ship on the winning side fires one instant-death shot at one enemy until all the enemies are finished off.

Aside the fact that comparing the sqrt of the values for both sides is essentially the same as comparing the values without calculating their sqrt, just with more operations...

did you consider actually having a crit system from the beginning, so as to potentially make battles shorter and not need this time limit, something like (hull damage / remaining hull)% ? For example, in the initial battle, BSA's first hit on FA:

The chance for a crit in FA would be 2/8 = 25%. Luck (both sides) would then modify this value, which gives it a more important role in combat. A successful crit would mean the destruction of the ship, or additional HP loss if the former was found too strong. Or the HP loss could be scaled to the actual crit roll - say 1 HP loss if roll is 21~25%, 3 if 16~20%, ..., destruction if roll <6%.

Successfully updated karma reason!

I think this combat system discourages using of multiple weapon types too much. also it seems to weaken defenses:
In DL they were a chance to reduce x amount of damage per enemy ship. in DA it is a chance to reduce x amount of damage per combat round. which is a huge difference.

Successfully updated karma reason!