Galactic Civilizations is the only Windows game I've ever worked on that isn't multiplayer.
The first Windows game I developed, Entrepreneur, had multiplayer. It included a built-in chat area and match-making. Stellar Frontier also had multiplayer -- up to 64 players on a persistent world. The Corporate Machine had multiplayer. The Political Machine had multiplayer.
In short, I've worked on a lot of multiplayer games. Moreover, I play multiplayer games. As was pointed out on-line, I played Total Annihilation, Starcraft, Warcraft 3, and several other strategy games a great deal on-line in a "Ranked" capacity. I've tried out nearly every major strategy game from Master of Orion 2 to HOMM 3 to Civ 3:PTW/Civ 4 multiplayer.
From this, I've concluded two things:
1) Some strategy games really benefit from a multiplayer component. Multiplayer extends their "fun" lifespan.
2) Some strategy games don't benefit from multiplayer and the sacrifices made for multiplayer lessened the overall experience.
To people who don't develop games, multiplayer may seem like a simple checkbox feature. Indeed, many developers I've spoken to feel pressured to put multiplayer in because some reviewers will give the game a lower score if it lacks it despite the fact that for most strategy games, the percentage of players playing on-line is very low.
But multiplayer brings sacrifices that many people may not be aware of. Galactic Civilizations II was developed so that multiplayer could be added later (i.e. it passes messages back and forth). But the gameplay was not. We were not willing to sacrifice the single-player experience for multiplayer.
I'm going to give three reasons why multiplayer does not make sense in Galactic Civilizations as part of the base game.
#1 It sacrifices single player features. Ask any game developer whether they be at Ensemble, Paradox, Firaxis, or Big Huge Games, most people play strategy games by themselves on a single computer. What % that is depends on the game. But on a TBS game, I would wager that greater than 95% of players never play a single game on-line even if the option is available -- that includes Civilization IV.
But developing multiplayer is incredibly time-consuming and expensive. In our last game, The Political Machine, a full third of the budget was for multiplayer. The game was ideally suited for multiplayer, published by Ubi Soft it would sell a ton of copies. The game came out and sure enough, only a tiny percent of people played the game multiplayer. That tiny percent didn't justify the 33% budget dedicated to them.
My favorite game of 2005 was Civilization IV. It has multiplayer in it that is as good if not better than any implementation in the history of turn-based games. But what was sacrificed in exchange? There's no campaign. There's no in-depth scenarios. No in-depth random events. You can only trade certain items and techs back and forth no matter what. Do you think this is a coincidence? No random civil wars based on certain criteria? No war-causing assasinations? No crusades? Not even once in a long while? I suspect that there were a lot of concepts and features that Civ IV would have had if it didn't have multiplayer.
When we were making Galactic Civilizations II, we took a poll on multiplayer. Only a small percentage of GalCiv I players cared about it. We took additional polls since multiplayer advocates were so vocal. Same thing.
So instead, Galactic Civilizations II got ship design and a campaign. I think most people would agree that we could have taken GalCiv I, slapped a 3D engine on it, given it multiplayer and been in good shape. But can anyone who's played the beta imagine the game without ship design? And when you play the campaign, I think you'll find that was worth it too.
Moreover, players get a lot more single player experience. There are rare events that players may only see once in a great while but they're worth it -- a religions war that breaks empires in pieces. New republics formed from remnants of shattered civilizations. Civil wars. Precursor ships found on worlds. Powerful artifacts that slowly increase the power of a given civilization so that everyone has to team up on them. Terrorists. On and on. In multiplayer, this would all have to be turned off, but then again, if there had been multiplayer, whey develop any of this at all if it wasn't always going to be used?
Similarly, there's diplomacy. Last night, I played as the galactic arms dealer. The Drengin and Torians were at war and I was supplying both sides with ships for money. I then took that money and slowly bought up the worlds of dying civilizations. That kind of flexibility in diplomacy would be a nightmare in multiplayer, you'd have to put all kinds of restrictions in the name of balance.
#2 The majority ends up subsidizing the minority. Outside some game reviewers and people who have friends who are really into this stuff, most people don't know other people on-line to play these games with. And let's face it, playing a turn-based strategy game with strangers is an excercise in frustration (I am not sure I've ever actually managed to complete a TBS on-line without the other player either dropping or quitting prematurely).
Galactic Civilizations II is $40. Not $50. That $10 may not seem like a lot to some people but to many gamers it makes a difference. Check out the prices on the latest multiplayer strategy games -- they're $49.99. Part of that price is to subsidize the multiplayer component that only a tiny percentage of users will play.
If there's sufficient demand for multiplayer, we'll do it -- but as an expansion. Those who want multiplayer can then buy it and those who don't aren't forced to pay for it. And everyone wins because they saved $10 in the first place.
Because of the Metaverse, GalCiv II already has multiplayer plumbing. We even have a multiplayer design. But it'll cost money and time to implement it. So if there's demand, we'll do it. But it has to be demand in raw numbers, not just vocalness of the people who want it.
#3 It would have changed the design priorities.
When you design from the start to be a good multiplayer experience you have to make sure the game is streamlined -- particular the interface. So things that might slow the multplayer pacing tend to come out.
Galactic Civilizations has lots of mini-cut scenes in it. Things to help the player enjoy and savor the civilization they've created. The technology tree is huge and designed to linger through and pick just the right one. The ship design is full of extras that are there so that players can make cool looking ships. The battle screen was implemented to be not just functional but fun to watch. The planetary details screens include quotes from random citizens and there's flavor text all over. Each civilization has its own vocabulary based on who it is talking to (i.e. how a Torian talks to a Terran is different than how they would talk to a Drengin).
But a good multiplayer game has to be far more streamlined. You don't want to have core features that encourage users to do anything but move their units and make their decisions efficiently. Take a look carefully at any decent multiplayer games recently and notice how efficient they are. Efficient is great in a multiplayer game. But in a single player game, there is something to be said I think for inefficiency -- for fluff.
And because we designed the game from the ground up to be a single player experience, Galactic Civilizations II has a LOT of fluff:
The screenshot below, I designed all the ships in this particular game. Every new game I make new ships. Why? Because it's fun. It's not efficient though from a sheer "get to the next turn quickly" point of view:
And what's the point of sitting there watching your ships battle it out?
In fact, there's a ton of things that involve reading quite a bit of text. There's a lot of customization within the game that has no "point" other than to let players indulge in the civilization they've created.
It's not that a game with multiplayer can't have these things. Civilization IV has the Civpedia for instance. But the tendancy in a good multiplayer game is to move the text and other stuff out of the way during gameplay and out to a place where it's looked at at ones leisure. And that's a good idea in a multiplayer designed game.
But these days, nearly all games are designed with multiplayer in mind. And for people who have no shortage of choices on multiplayer, it's nice to have a good old fashioned single player experience where you can sit down and indulge yourself to the full experience.
I remember a game called Master of Magic back in the early 90s. It was a great game. But it was only a great game because it was single-player. The things that made it really neat would have been a disaster in multiplayer.
And that's really the point -- multiplayer is a feature. Sometimes it makes sense and sometimes it doesn't. In some RPGs sometimes they're better being single player (Knights of the Old Republic) and sometimes they're better being multiplayer (Neverwinter Nights).
For those who think multiplayer is a must in strategy games I hope this post has at least made the case that maybe sometimes multiplayer doesn't belong in the base game.
We know how to make multiplayer games. We had the budget to make GalCiv II a multiplayer game if we wanted. We like multiplayer games. But we felt that GalCiv II would be a better game if multiplayer was not part of the base game.
Kryo already said it's more involved than flipping a switch. Tend to take his word for it since he works for Stardock and all.
AH so it is more like pushing a button then.. good !
So what would it take to get multiplayer patched in or added as extra ?
Even mod support to add it in perhaps ?
It's a lot more complicated than it seems. Everything in GalCiv II has been designed around the assumption that there's only one human player. Adding multiplayer therefore means changing almost everything. Then there's all the balance issues that would create. Don't even get me started on the stuff that's still wrong with the single-player game (and by extension would also be wrong in the multiplayer game).
My advice would be to wait for GalCiv III.
After reading Froboys post as a fan of Gal Civ I and II and their DA/TA expansions, I say if people want a multiplayer put your money where your mouth is and buy it as a expansion and not demand it to screw up GC 3.And considering how few people supposedly come on the forums why for the love thats all holy should stardock/Kalypso/whoever monkey about with the game we love because "some" people want to play online for 3-6 months till they get bored and throw it back on their shelf. Whereas those of us that not only play it all the time but come back to it time and time again get shafted with a multiplayer feature we either never wanted or cant use and the developer see's that all their game budget,time and effort go for nought!.
Personally I'd rather have a good/great single player game I can keep going back to than a ok/good game that has a major function I cant use or wont use and after I've completed the campaign sits on my shelves gathering dust or thrown away.
DONT RUIN GALACTIC CIVILISATIONS,DONT COMPROMISE WHAT MADE US LOVE THIS GAME IN THE 1ST PLACE!
ok,rant over - welcomes ban with open arms!
sorry for the WoT!
Truer words were never spoken.
i would pay alot of money for even a working hotseat. the cheat doesnt work right tried too many times and its unplayable. id donate an entire work week check if theyd do it
For what I highlighted above, I would be happy to! No, I am not one of those children on the internet we all loath. But I have hundreds maybe thousands of hours of hotseat CO-OP play in MOO2 with my best friend from highschool. I LOVE Galciv2 the way it is, however I would love to sit down at his place and us 2 play it on a hotseat for hours cooperatively. The last thing I would want to see if GalCiv2 turned into Starcraft, specifically SC1 Bloodbath zerg rushing. Zerging has its place, STARCRAFT. I would happily buy a hotseat expansion, or even one for he and I.
Aside form that, are there any mods anyone knows of that I could use for Hotseat?
ive lost my seriel number. several yrs ago i put all cds in a book and ditched the case, now i need it to play in megaverse,, any ideas
Hi guys,
I'm a brand new Gal Civs 2 player (just bought the Ultimate Edition on Steam a few days ago), but Ive played the Civilization series of games since Civ II, so Im not new to TBS games. I can honestly say I have NEVER played a multiplayer game of any TBS game, nor would I want to. I dont have the time or patience for it. I need to be able to save the game & turn it off anytime.
I wholeheartedly support the fact that Gal Civs 2 is single player only, & applaud this design decision. I wish more developers werent afraid to do single player only nowdays. I wish Firaxis would understand this & make Civ VI single player only, but I doubt that will happen, even though Im sure only a very small percentage of Civ players actually play multiplayer on a regular basis.
WOW this thread is still alive?
Why not do something like the addon for Kerbal Space Program called KLF, or Kerbal Livefeed, it allows for screenshot and save sharing, and chat, but not actual multiplayer.
Well its stickied so it'll probably stay alive forever.
Okay so I am sure these points have been made by now, but I would like to restate them to remind people that others have done this too.To counter claim number 1, I am only going to say this. Space Empires V was done in 2006 and it has way more features then this game does, the graphics are not nearly as good but it has the shipbuilding, a very very extensive tech tree, and it also has the create your own race feature too.But the biggest difference is that it has all of that with multiplayer. You lost nothing with it added.Claim number 2 is that very few people want the multiplayer feature added. This could not be any further from the truth if you wanted. The problem with forums is that the most outspoken, or rather the people who are the loudest tend to win. In this case here, the people that don't want it shout out "NO" more often because they hound this forum enough to make it seem like they have more people. And as for the polls on this matter were done wrong because they ask not if you want multiplayer but rather if you want it versus having new game content added. That is the same as asking "do you want me to give you a really expensive car or do you want a job? Oh you want the $200,000 car, then I guess most people in the world don't want jobs" The poll was set up to make it sound like no one wanted the multi player added in. But I know for a fact that there is a huge market for it, and the longer the game stays single player online the longer it will be before this game is able to pick up. Look at most turn base games out there, almost all of them have it now.Claim number 3 if I am understanding it right is that they design team would not have been able to do as much fluff in the game, they would have to focus on other aspects instead. Umm, you do know that games like Civ 4 has mini cutscenes in it right? You build a wonder or found a faith and you get a cutscene for it. But again this i a hollow claim because cutscenes don't take away in a multiplayer game at all, if anything it add too it. Imagine if you are playing online and there was a cutscene for when you build the very first dreadnought and the person your at war with gets it, so you also see the cutscene, well now your in trouble and you got a little something to help add to the feel of it. Fluff works well in single player but it can also be just as good if not better in multiplayer.Now I am no fool and I know how much code you have to add and change in order to make a game multiplayer, and I also know that making a game multiplayer is also a gamble on it being a success or a fail. I also know that it can be a bit expensive, but if it is true that the game was set up from the start to easily add it in, then most of the time and effort will be lessened because of this. Don't assume that just because on these forums that you don't hear a lot of people saying this, that most people don't want to have this feature added. I know many people that said they will not switch from Civ IV, V to this game because it lacks the multiplayer feature.
GC2 does just fine without mutliplayer. Would it have been nice if it were present? Sure.
Short of a sweet DeLorean time machine there's not much that can be done to alter how the game's design played out. And just as with time travel, the issues faced in game development may very well change the fortunes of a studio.
As far as multiplayer in Stardock's latest projects is concerned, we're waiting to hear that Stardock has hired an ace networking developer.
Edit: I guess they must have.
(buys gal civ III )
It is nice to hear a person stand by the decision.. I play far to many games that sacrifice just to make the MP aspects. Some games it works, but i'm so glad that this one did not.. even finding this game 6+ years down the road.. I find it amazing
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