Galactic Civilizations is the only Windows game I've ever worked on that isn't multiplayer.
The first Windows game I developed, Entrepreneur, had multiplayer. It included a built-in chat area and match-making. Stellar Frontier also had multiplayer -- up to 64 players on a persistent world. The Corporate Machine had multiplayer. The Political Machine had multiplayer.
In short, I've worked on a lot of multiplayer games. Moreover, I play multiplayer games. As was pointed out on-line, I played Total Annihilation, Starcraft, Warcraft 3, and several other strategy games a great deal on-line in a "Ranked" capacity. I've tried out nearly every major strategy game from Master of Orion 2 to HOMM 3 to Civ 3:PTW/Civ 4 multiplayer.
From this, I've concluded two things:
1) Some strategy games really benefit from a multiplayer component. Multiplayer extends their "fun" lifespan.
2) Some strategy games don't benefit from multiplayer and the sacrifices made for multiplayer lessened the overall experience.
To people who don't develop games, multiplayer may seem like a simple checkbox feature. Indeed, many developers I've spoken to feel pressured to put multiplayer in because some reviewers will give the game a lower score if it lacks it despite the fact that for most strategy games, the percentage of players playing on-line is very low.
But multiplayer brings sacrifices that many people may not be aware of. Galactic Civilizations II was developed so that multiplayer could be added later (i.e. it passes messages back and forth). But the gameplay was not. We were not willing to sacrifice the single-player experience for multiplayer.
I'm going to give three reasons why multiplayer does not make sense in Galactic Civilizations as part of the base game.
#1 It sacrifices single player features. Ask any game developer whether they be at Ensemble, Paradox, Firaxis, or Big Huge Games, most people play strategy games by themselves on a single computer. What % that is depends on the game. But on a TBS game, I would wager that greater than 95% of players never play a single game on-line even if the option is available -- that includes Civilization IV.
But developing multiplayer is incredibly time-consuming and expensive. In our last game, The Political Machine, a full third of the budget was for multiplayer. The game was ideally suited for multiplayer, published by Ubi Soft it would sell a ton of copies. The game came out and sure enough, only a tiny percent of people played the game multiplayer. That tiny percent didn't justify the 33% budget dedicated to them.
My favorite game of 2005 was Civilization IV. It has multiplayer in it that is as good if not better than any implementation in the history of turn-based games. But what was sacrificed in exchange? There's no campaign. There's no in-depth scenarios. No in-depth random events. You can only trade certain items and techs back and forth no matter what. Do you think this is a coincidence? No random civil wars based on certain criteria? No war-causing assasinations? No crusades? Not even once in a long while? I suspect that there were a lot of concepts and features that Civ IV would have had if it didn't have multiplayer.
When we were making Galactic Civilizations II, we took a poll on multiplayer. Only a small percentage of GalCiv I players cared about it. We took additional polls since multiplayer advocates were so vocal. Same thing.
So instead, Galactic Civilizations II got ship design and a campaign. I think most people would agree that we could have taken GalCiv I, slapped a 3D engine on it, given it multiplayer and been in good shape. But can anyone who's played the beta imagine the game without ship design? And when you play the campaign, I think you'll find that was worth it too.
Moreover, players get a lot more single player experience. There are rare events that players may only see once in a great while but they're worth it -- a religions war that breaks empires in pieces. New republics formed from remnants of shattered civilizations. Civil wars. Precursor ships found on worlds. Powerful artifacts that slowly increase the power of a given civilization so that everyone has to team up on them. Terrorists. On and on. In multiplayer, this would all have to be turned off, but then again, if there had been multiplayer, whey develop any of this at all if it wasn't always going to be used?
Similarly, there's diplomacy. Last night, I played as the galactic arms dealer. The Drengin and Torians were at war and I was supplying both sides with ships for money. I then took that money and slowly bought up the worlds of dying civilizations. That kind of flexibility in diplomacy would be a nightmare in multiplayer, you'd have to put all kinds of restrictions in the name of balance.
#2 The majority ends up subsidizing the minority. Outside some game reviewers and people who have friends who are really into this stuff, most people don't know other people on-line to play these games with. And let's face it, playing a turn-based strategy game with strangers is an excercise in frustration (I am not sure I've ever actually managed to complete a TBS on-line without the other player either dropping or quitting prematurely).
Galactic Civilizations II is $40. Not $50. That $10 may not seem like a lot to some people but to many gamers it makes a difference. Check out the prices on the latest multiplayer strategy games -- they're $49.99. Part of that price is to subsidize the multiplayer component that only a tiny percentage of users will play.
If there's sufficient demand for multiplayer, we'll do it -- but as an expansion. Those who want multiplayer can then buy it and those who don't aren't forced to pay for it. And everyone wins because they saved $10 in the first place.
Because of the Metaverse, GalCiv II already has multiplayer plumbing. We even have a multiplayer design. But it'll cost money and time to implement it. So if there's demand, we'll do it. But it has to be demand in raw numbers, not just vocalness of the people who want it.
#3 It would have changed the design priorities.
When you design from the start to be a good multiplayer experience you have to make sure the game is streamlined -- particular the interface. So things that might slow the multplayer pacing tend to come out.
Galactic Civilizations has lots of mini-cut scenes in it. Things to help the player enjoy and savor the civilization they've created. The technology tree is huge and designed to linger through and pick just the right one. The ship design is full of extras that are there so that players can make cool looking ships. The battle screen was implemented to be not just functional but fun to watch. The planetary details screens include quotes from random citizens and there's flavor text all over. Each civilization has its own vocabulary based on who it is talking to (i.e. how a Torian talks to a Terran is different than how they would talk to a Drengin).
But a good multiplayer game has to be far more streamlined. You don't want to have core features that encourage users to do anything but move their units and make their decisions efficiently. Take a look carefully at any decent multiplayer games recently and notice how efficient they are. Efficient is great in a multiplayer game. But in a single player game, there is something to be said I think for inefficiency -- for fluff.
And because we designed the game from the ground up to be a single player experience, Galactic Civilizations II has a LOT of fluff:
The screenshot below, I designed all the ships in this particular game. Every new game I make new ships. Why? Because it's fun. It's not efficient though from a sheer "get to the next turn quickly" point of view:
And what's the point of sitting there watching your ships battle it out?
In fact, there's a ton of things that involve reading quite a bit of text. There's a lot of customization within the game that has no "point" other than to let players indulge in the civilization they've created.
It's not that a game with multiplayer can't have these things. Civilization IV has the Civpedia for instance. But the tendancy in a good multiplayer game is to move the text and other stuff out of the way during gameplay and out to a place where it's looked at at ones leisure. And that's a good idea in a multiplayer designed game.
But these days, nearly all games are designed with multiplayer in mind. And for people who have no shortage of choices on multiplayer, it's nice to have a good old fashioned single player experience where you can sit down and indulge yourself to the full experience.
I remember a game called Master of Magic back in the early 90s. It was a great game. But it was only a great game because it was single-player. The things that made it really neat would have been a disaster in multiplayer.
And that's really the point -- multiplayer is a feature. Sometimes it makes sense and sometimes it doesn't. In some RPGs sometimes they're better being single player (Knights of the Old Republic) and sometimes they're better being multiplayer (Neverwinter Nights).
For those who think multiplayer is a must in strategy games I hope this post has at least made the case that maybe sometimes multiplayer doesn't belong in the base game.
We know how to make multiplayer games. We had the budget to make GalCiv II a multiplayer game if we wanted. We like multiplayer games. But we felt that GalCiv II would be a better game if multiplayer was not part of the base game.
If not already said, many people view single player as training for multiplayer. If there isn't multiplayer, they don't feel there is a point.
So wait for GC3. Honestly, you'd think that developers can just wave a magic wand and add a feature.
I have to totally disagree with this. Some games are fun with MP, but a turn-based 4x empire building game...not so much. That is something to be enjoyed slowly, at your own pace, against good AI.
Deadlock 2 did a fine job of being turned based multiplayer (but failed in other areas, like single player campaign and AI that worked). The trick is to build a game that gets to the point, quickly. This game doesn't have this problem, but games like Civ V have frequent down times where you have nothing to do but wait. There should rarely be a turn where you literally do nothing. Not in the beginning and not in the end.
This comment has nothing to do with Galatic Civilization 2. GalCiv2 is what it is. I'm mostly refuting that turn-based 4x empire building games don't make good multiplayer games.
I completely disagree with you. MOO 2 was a blast multiplayer, and that was back in the days where you had to sit around and wait for each other's turn to end. You might not find MP fun with these kind of strategy games, but i love them, and I am not alone in my opinion anymore than you are.
I hear you, I know a ton of people enjoy playing games like this in MP, but I think it's mostly people that like fast, war based games of galciv. I like to take weeks building an empire, and maintaining good relations with the other civs, both of those things don't translate well to multiplayer.
Single Player is, for me, the priority - I play computer games when I don't have *time* to go out and do table-top RPG; I can enjoy multiplayer, but it's not the priority and personally I couldn't care less.
That said - it does seem to me to be something that can, from an interface standpoint, be built in from the get go; with a built in client server relationship where the game is being run from the server portion and the players *and* the AI are accessing via a documented set of API's. Once that's done, you ought to be able to run a game from the command line (Should you so desire).
Given Stardock's proven skill at interface design that could be leveraged into that kind of arrangement, I'm not sure I understand the hard stance against it.
Jonnan
I think it's just as Brad says in the original post...that when resources and time are spent working on MP, they aren't spent working on something more important.
As someone that does what we will laughingly call 'programming' for fun, it may very well be a situation where I'm not getting the actual resources involved.
I'd hate to let complete ignorance start influencing my opinions at this late date though.
So, it seems to me that there are a lot of programming advantages to setting up a client server relationship between the interface and the core game system; given those advantages, multiplayer becomes, not so much a feature, but a side effect. Given Stardock's demonstrable competency in systems like DesktopX, leveraging those advantages seems not only to be effective, but actually leveraging Stardock's strengths into the system.
And that's where I get lost about the hard anti-multiplayer stance. It's not so much 'Message - I Care', because I really really don't; I played 2 games of MOO II in multiplayer and never finished either of them.
It's just that there are (it seems to me as a cub scout junior coder) advantages to the kind of framework that happens to create multiplayer as a side effect, that framework plays to what (seem to me) to be many of Stardock's core strengths, and and I don't grok the design decision to avoid bringing those strengths to bear.
I very much agree that Hotseat, LAN, and/or an email-esque play system is the way to go. But there should never be a time that other features should be sacrificed for these things. In fact, it's hard to see how there could be features sacrificed, especially considering these sorts of games just aren't for playing with random strangers, anyway. It's like getting together a bunch of friends to play Risk. People who should be expected to wait out turns, regardless of how long they take. And if they need to scale it down, then the game's natural features should be able to accomodate this, anyway. Like choosing smaller map sizes.
Civilization is what it is- I really don't see how Multiplayer really affected its development. Much as Master of Orion is what it is. Personally, I just don't see these styles of games lending themselves to scenario-oriented gameplay, anyway. It's always been about randomized worlds/galaxies and exploring, expanding, exploiting, and exterminating as you see fit on your quest to galactic dominance, with each game capable of very different experiences thanks to the random maps and rivals.
I won't argue that the campaign for GalCiv 2 was a waste; any decently-written campaign is enjoyable to experience... but at the same time, it seems out of place for a genre whose core design is all about players making their own mark on a unique galaxy or world.
Scenarios, similarly, can be fun, but in the end they're also one-shot experiences. Civilization also uses them to great effect, but they also add the best ones in expansions, like Beyond the Sword for Civ IV. AfterWorld, for instance, is an impressive piece of work that made a Tactical Squad-Level Strategy like X-COM out of a Civ game, playing completely differently from the vanilla Civ. However, I have also played Civ IV: Colonization, and although it was an interesting experience, it also felt like a cheap experience next to a proper game of Civ IV.
The true longevity of the 4X genre is the richness of a random game experience. Not scripted single-player events and encounters, and not dumbed-down multiplayer experiences. And just adding friends and family to the rich random game experience should be the core point of 4X multiplayer.
Hi. I am fan of this wonderful game. Will you add multiplayer?
hey i dont ever play the game anymore but i still check on a weekly basis to see if there is any hotseat or lan news for the future and sadly there never is any. Playing against the ai is boring to me , theyre too predictable. Ive tried to make the cheat mode hotseat game work but its just not good enough.. I have quite a few friends that feel the same way about the multiplayer as well and would love to buy it. there are many turn based games that have it and its fun still. you should still be able to make changes and plot courses even when its not your turn ... but even if you had to wait completely for another persons turn like hotseat it would still be fine to me .. Id be willing to pay any price to see at least a hotseat feature... I could care less about new features in the game because going against the ai forever sucks...i dont understand why the developers dont care about this at all.. i Know there are many ppl that feel the same way.... Please at least make a hotseat for the game !!
If you want to see what the AI can do when it isn't hampered by a tech tree from some kind of Drengin slaveling camp, check out my Space Weapons Fix Mod and/or Tolmekian's Techtree Fix and Colonising Minors Mod in the Modding section.
For the first time in a while the AIs are giving me a run for my money.
wow!
so many thing...
Thanks for sharing the information through your post.
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This game is awesome really, I've been playing it for years now but the lack of multiplayer is why I choose CivIV and AgeofWonders over GalCic2. I would buy an expansion that adds multiplayer and nothing else really.
I would only say this:
Civilization-type games lend itself to single player naturally.
i would really like hotseat mode, i love this game... but we still play MOO2 multiplayer hotseat with friends over and over for years, it would be really cool if Galciv2 have same option!
That can be done, sort of. From Brad's post in 2006...
Not that I've personally tried it though. Here's the link...
https://forums.galciv2.com/102205
ive been reading a lot of the comments and its obviouse not to many people want multiplayer
sadly im one of those who do or at least a 1 on 1 version on the same computer so that say it could you aginst a brother or you aginst yourself?
im not the best at the game and it took me a while to actually understand anything even after watching the teaching videos multiple times so i would like to of had just that little extra bit of being able to train myself or with a friend.
also adragel
your statement is fals in every way
I understand if multiplayer isn't implemented, whether as a DLC patch or expansion (when it should easily pay for itself) or even for free.
What I don't understand is why the devs haven't given the community the modding capabilities to make it multiplayer.
Or even bothered to implement hotseat when apparently it can be done via a little cheating as the above poster said.
No matter how you look at it, this is 2012. Even Skyrim, an RPG meant to be exclusively singleplayer, has a mod that is working on making it online (it's a bit dodgy, currently, but give them a few years and I'm sure Skyrim will have co-op, all because they have access to a proper SDK.
It's lazy, simply no other way to put it, and I hope one day someone will mod it to its fullest potential.
Lazy is necroing a post that started over 6 years ago. Let it die already.
Necro'ing a sticky? That's a good one.
Because that would require entire subsystems that flat out do not exist in the game engine.
Doing it correctly would take far more than just flipping a switch. The game's systems are not designed to account for two human players on the same machine. One such example--the diplomacy screen.
Such mods in Skyrim and Oblivion would be impossible within the constraints of what the game actually permits. They all rely on third party utilities which inject user code into the game executable in memory (hacks, in so many words). And even at that, they basically amount to making an NPC mimic certain of your actions in another player's game.
Thank you for your response. I certainly don't claim to know anything about developing games.I am just miffed that there's such a great game that can't be enjoyed with your friends. With the current state the gaming industry is in, it's nice to have a few gems out there (Civ 4, GalCiv 2, to name a few).This has already been said, I'm sure, but if it were to be released as a DLC, I'd buy it (15-20 dollars).Have a nice day.
This thread isn't really making progress towards anything.
Let's stop this discussion if or why the reasons are to have or not have multiplayer.
As multiplayer for turn-based games is great fun, Homm3 being a great example at that. (this being my oppinion)
Let's try and see what it would take and how we could manage to get multiplayer working for this game.
Is there a developer still around to maybe help ?
What would it take to get multiplayer in GalCiv2 ?
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