Galactic Civilizations is the only Windows game I've ever worked on that isn't multiplayer.
The first Windows game I developed, Entrepreneur, had multiplayer. It included a built-in chat area and match-making. Stellar Frontier also had multiplayer -- up to 64 players on a persistent world. The Corporate Machine had multiplayer. The Political Machine had multiplayer.
In short, I've worked on a lot of multiplayer games. Moreover, I play multiplayer games. As was pointed out on-line, I played Total Annihilation, Starcraft, Warcraft 3, and several other strategy games a great deal on-line in a "Ranked" capacity. I've tried out nearly every major strategy game from Master of Orion 2 to HOMM 3 to Civ 3:PTW/Civ 4 multiplayer.
From this, I've concluded two things:
1) Some strategy games really benefit from a multiplayer component. Multiplayer extends their "fun" lifespan.
2) Some strategy games don't benefit from multiplayer and the sacrifices made for multiplayer lessened the overall experience.
To people who don't develop games, multiplayer may seem like a simple checkbox feature. Indeed, many developers I've spoken to feel pressured to put multiplayer in because some reviewers will give the game a lower score if it lacks it despite the fact that for most strategy games, the percentage of players playing on-line is very low.
But multiplayer brings sacrifices that many people may not be aware of. Galactic Civilizations II was developed so that multiplayer could be added later (i.e. it passes messages back and forth). But the gameplay was not. We were not willing to sacrifice the single-player experience for multiplayer.
I'm going to give three reasons why multiplayer does not make sense in Galactic Civilizations as part of the base game.
#1 It sacrifices single player features. Ask any game developer whether they be at Ensemble, Paradox, Firaxis, or Big Huge Games, most people play strategy games by themselves on a single computer. What % that is depends on the game. But on a TBS game, I would wager that greater than 95% of players never play a single game on-line even if the option is available -- that includes Civilization IV.
But developing multiplayer is incredibly time-consuming and expensive. In our last game, The Political Machine, a full third of the budget was for multiplayer. The game was ideally suited for multiplayer, published by Ubi Soft it would sell a ton of copies. The game came out and sure enough, only a tiny percent of people played the game multiplayer. That tiny percent didn't justify the 33% budget dedicated to them.
My favorite game of 2005 was Civilization IV. It has multiplayer in it that is as good if not better than any implementation in the history of turn-based games. But what was sacrificed in exchange? There's no campaign. There's no in-depth scenarios. No in-depth random events. You can only trade certain items and techs back and forth no matter what. Do you think this is a coincidence? No random civil wars based on certain criteria? No war-causing assasinations? No crusades? Not even once in a long while? I suspect that there were a lot of concepts and features that Civ IV would have had if it didn't have multiplayer.
When we were making Galactic Civilizations II, we took a poll on multiplayer. Only a small percentage of GalCiv I players cared about it. We took additional polls since multiplayer advocates were so vocal. Same thing.
So instead, Galactic Civilizations II got ship design and a campaign. I think most people would agree that we could have taken GalCiv I, slapped a 3D engine on it, given it multiplayer and been in good shape. But can anyone who's played the beta imagine the game without ship design? And when you play the campaign, I think you'll find that was worth it too.
Moreover, players get a lot more single player experience. There are rare events that players may only see once in a great while but they're worth it -- a religions war that breaks empires in pieces. New republics formed from remnants of shattered civilizations. Civil wars. Precursor ships found on worlds. Powerful artifacts that slowly increase the power of a given civilization so that everyone has to team up on them. Terrorists. On and on. In multiplayer, this would all have to be turned off, but then again, if there had been multiplayer, whey develop any of this at all if it wasn't always going to be used?
Similarly, there's diplomacy. Last night, I played as the galactic arms dealer. The Drengin and Torians were at war and I was supplying both sides with ships for money. I then took that money and slowly bought up the worlds of dying civilizations. That kind of flexibility in diplomacy would be a nightmare in multiplayer, you'd have to put all kinds of restrictions in the name of balance.
#2 The majority ends up subsidizing the minority. Outside some game reviewers and people who have friends who are really into this stuff, most people don't know other people on-line to play these games with. And let's face it, playing a turn-based strategy game with strangers is an excercise in frustration (I am not sure I've ever actually managed to complete a TBS on-line without the other player either dropping or quitting prematurely).
Galactic Civilizations II is $40. Not $50. That $10 may not seem like a lot to some people but to many gamers it makes a difference. Check out the prices on the latest multiplayer strategy games -- they're $49.99. Part of that price is to subsidize the multiplayer component that only a tiny percentage of users will play.
If there's sufficient demand for multiplayer, we'll do it -- but as an expansion. Those who want multiplayer can then buy it and those who don't aren't forced to pay for it. And everyone wins because they saved $10 in the first place.
Because of the Metaverse, GalCiv II already has multiplayer plumbing. We even have a multiplayer design. But it'll cost money and time to implement it. So if there's demand, we'll do it. But it has to be demand in raw numbers, not just vocalness of the people who want it.
#3 It would have changed the design priorities.
When you design from the start to be a good multiplayer experience you have to make sure the game is streamlined -- particular the interface. So things that might slow the multplayer pacing tend to come out.
Galactic Civilizations has lots of mini-cut scenes in it. Things to help the player enjoy and savor the civilization they've created. The technology tree is huge and designed to linger through and pick just the right one. The ship design is full of extras that are there so that players can make cool looking ships. The battle screen was implemented to be not just functional but fun to watch. The planetary details screens include quotes from random citizens and there's flavor text all over. Each civilization has its own vocabulary based on who it is talking to (i.e. how a Torian talks to a Terran is different than how they would talk to a Drengin).
But a good multiplayer game has to be far more streamlined. You don't want to have core features that encourage users to do anything but move their units and make their decisions efficiently. Take a look carefully at any decent multiplayer games recently and notice how efficient they are. Efficient is great in a multiplayer game. But in a single player game, there is something to be said I think for inefficiency -- for fluff.
And because we designed the game from the ground up to be a single player experience, Galactic Civilizations II has a LOT of fluff:
The screenshot below, I designed all the ships in this particular game. Every new game I make new ships. Why? Because it's fun. It's not efficient though from a sheer "get to the next turn quickly" point of view:
And what's the point of sitting there watching your ships battle it out?
In fact, there's a ton of things that involve reading quite a bit of text. There's a lot of customization within the game that has no "point" other than to let players indulge in the civilization they've created.
It's not that a game with multiplayer can't have these things. Civilization IV has the Civpedia for instance. But the tendancy in a good multiplayer game is to move the text and other stuff out of the way during gameplay and out to a place where it's looked at at ones leisure. And that's a good idea in a multiplayer designed game.
But these days, nearly all games are designed with multiplayer in mind. And for people who have no shortage of choices on multiplayer, it's nice to have a good old fashioned single player experience where you can sit down and indulge yourself to the full experience.
I remember a game called Master of Magic back in the early 90s. It was a great game. But it was only a great game because it was single-player. The things that made it really neat would have been a disaster in multiplayer.
And that's really the point -- multiplayer is a feature. Sometimes it makes sense and sometimes it doesn't. In some RPGs sometimes they're better being single player (Knights of the Old Republic) and sometimes they're better being multiplayer (Neverwinter Nights).
For those who think multiplayer is a must in strategy games I hope this post has at least made the case that maybe sometimes multiplayer doesn't belong in the base game.
We know how to make multiplayer games. We had the budget to make GalCiv II a multiplayer game if we wanted. We like multiplayer games. But we felt that GalCiv II would be a better game if multiplayer was not part of the base game.
I am a galciv fan, and yet I have never been able to bring my friends to it by the usual "go get it, we'll play it together". Because of that lack of multiplayer so many will not even bother discovering it. I am happy that we maximize the single player user base, but I don't see why we shouldn't bother bringing more players to it.
Pricing is in my opinion not a good argument (MP will make the game more expansive) as the game makes benefits that are sufficient to cover the cost of develloping the MP and as MP will bring more people to the game, that will at least cover the extra expenses in return.
It is worth noticing also that PC games are dying because of piracy and online is the best way to counter pirates. Online Pc games still sell quite well. It is very simple: compare turn based sales of high rated games that offer MP and the ones which don't, and you will see a strong relations between sales and MP.
to summarize:
- MP will bring more people to galciv
- MP will reduce piracy
- MP will translate in more sales
To conclude:
There is no good reason not to include MP in Galciv, not nowadays. Unless of course the goal is the keep galciv as a small fanboys game, and in my opinion it deserves so much more attention.
PC games aren't dying because of piracy. They're in some cases dying because developers aren't coming up with new and exciting concepts that really grab gamers like never before, or bringing back old but fun concepts that make for good gameplay. It's easy to blame piracy when the game hits the shelves and doesn't shift except maybe to the bargain bin. People have to want to buy it.
Multiplayer on its own won't generate more sales. A game with the right features and playability will make multiplayer an attractive option.
The argument for mutiplayer shouldn't be based on how many new players will pick up the game, but why they should continue playing. A multiplayer community depends on the continued presence of players who want to play multiplayer. If you could somehow find a hundred people who would want to play multiplayer GC3 at least three times a week for a year, that would be a start.
PC games are dying because of piracy, especially if they are gamer's game. some popular games have a 80% piracy ratio. If I agree that multiplayer is not the only way to reduce piracy, it sure can help. And all the ones who enjoy Civ 4 MP or who enjoyed MOO2 MP can only dream of seeing GC in MP also. And for us, the many of us, we cannot see a good reason not to do it.
I doubt that there is this large base of players who'll jump at the chance of playing turn-based strategy and unless there is a large base of players who are interested in the mutliplayer side of things, it will be a disappointment. If there were sufficient interest, I would have thought that this thread would be longer than twenty pages.
Even then, if you could get a thousand players there's nothing to say that the multiplayer experience will actually be enjoyable. In my opinion, to actually get through turns at a pace where people aren't going to lose interest, a lot of the stuff that makes single-player so good will simply not be possible. Even if I use a "here's one I made earlier" template for a ship, adding the components can take minutes, not seconds. So effectively, manual ship design (which is one of the things which sold GC2) is out the window when you play multiplayer.
I'm pretty sure I'm not willing to make that sacrifice just so I can play against human opposition instead of the AI.
I recently purchased the base game at a great bargain. I would have bought this game on day one if it had an multiplayer compenent. I played and loved Heroes of Might and Magic II. Master of Orion II. I've purhcased Civ IV and all it's expanions to play with my friends and family. We're looking at Colonization now. I think it would be a mistake to assume that people interested in multplayer would be all over these forums because some people that focus on multiplayer games would have by-passed Stardock's games completely. I know enough about sample sizes to know my example, and the example of my friends and family are hardly conclusive, but I am willing to bet we are not alone. Of the group of us that play together all the time, I am the only one who has purchased a Stardock game although all of us are aware of the game and showed interest and stopped short of buying it because of lack of multiplayer. After all, we all buy multiplayer games together and play frequently so time for single player games is limited and is often triumped by the chance to play with each other.
Also, I dont' care about easy match up sytsems or anything like that. Infact I prefer, simple direct IP. Works for us, and I've never had to fix some messed up .ini to play with others like i had to with one of my EA titles that forces players to use their online servers (until we found a way around that too).
*slaps on a 'Marathon Topic' sticker*
Well bearing in mind how this topic began, multiplayer GC3 would probably not throw as much information or have as much drill-down, because if the multiplayer is optimised so that an average player who has played a multiplayer TBS before isn't daunted, the interface and the game itself have to be somewhat streamlined. You have to be able to get through a turn without himming and hawing over details. This might mean that there will be a simplified or automated tech tree, a set palette of ships or unlockable ships, and different victory conditions, so that those decisions are easier butaren't rendered completely meaningless. Of course if you're playing by e-mail, you might uncheck the 'simplified stuff' because you'll have time to deal with everything.
In single-player GC3, the reverse could apply - you'd probably have a full tech tree, the ability to customise your ships as much as you can with that technology, and all the time you need to make your decisions. The AI opponents would give a good match, which would give the single-player enthusiasts an incentive to keep playing with different, more challenging opponents. And the combat viewer, well if you're not careful your eyeballs might melt from teh epic battle sequences.
Although single-player and multiplayer would share common elements, the experience from playing them would be different and suited to those who would be most likely to play them. If anyone feels they can't learn two different games, well they don't have to, they can just play the one that doesn't make their brain melt.
"But we felt that GalCiv II would be a better game if multiplayer was not part of the base game. " oh yeah beating Ai is a hole lot of fun compared to beat your best buddy or some random noobs on the inet
ru7h I think you summarize it well
I'd rather play an AI, at least then I know to consistently expect some resistance.
Human players don't always give a challenging game; they might be more devious, unpredictable and vindictive, but they're also gullible, selfish and bone-headed. Multiply that over an ungodly number of turns and bathroom breaks, and you might find that a human player is far less consistent in their performance.
In case nobody has noticed this GC2 is a turn based strat that can last for weeks with balanced oppenents and turns of around half an hour, this spells extreme boredom for somebody playing against you! The only way to implement a meaningful multiplayer would be to change it to a real time strategy so that all players could act at the same time, then you would attract loads of 'tourist gamers' who would want there to be less techs and other advances so that games dont last as long, and they will be right - As it is the games would never get finished because All the players would have to be on at the same time, for as long as the battle rages, or really whoever can last the longest before having to go to work/school/family/sleep.
Multiplayer would destroy GC.
Its been a while since I last posted here. Good old times as student with too much spare time... long gone now.
I installed GC2 on my notebook and played during a 5 hour trip with the train on the weekend. It was the first round of GC2 in a long time and I enjoyed it a lot. The hours flew by.
I only got Dread Lords and not Twilight. I might buy it now, maybe as my personal x-mas present, but I have to admit that I refused to buy it in the first place because no multiplayer support was added, which I was and still am really waiting for.
I have a lot of respect and favour for Brad and Stardock, but imho doing a poll among gamers of a purely single player game is really not representative when asking for the importance of multiplayer support. IF GC1 had already supported multiplayer then a lot more people who bought and played the game for MP would have been around to take the poll.
It is like being a politician and asking among other politicians whether they should get more $$$. Most politician, greedy and selfish as most of them are, will of course agree to get more cash, but the people paying tax are left out and not asked. They would rather have the tax spent for education and health...
I said before, I used to play Empire at first (old age game lol) and later on Civ2 Test of Time (fantasy with 4 planes) with a school friend. Before the dawn of the internet we carried a 3.5" Floppy around each day, so we basically had 2-3 turns each per week. Later on we moved to e-mail. We literally played a single game for years (from about 2000 to 2006).
I also played hours and hours of Master of Orion 2 with my brother and other friends, sometimes via LAN, sometimes via hotseat. It always was a blast.
I got a MSc in computer science and am working as software developer myself. Although my application field is Industrial Automation I also enjoy reading up and playing around with Direct3d stuff, game programming, modding, XNA etc...
I do not believe anyone trying to tell me that it would be impossible or affect the sinple player experience if/to multiplayer was added.
As others said. Give us open access to the code and we implement it in a matter of maybe a few months in our spare time.
Or get down and do it yourself. It does not need to be perfect. I do not want to play the campaign, only free mode games with friends. Give us the choice between simultane and round robin mode and let the game behave exactly as it does. So what if ship design takes long (hey, we can do it outside the game soon, right? and we can already load pre-defined templates, which is a nice addition btw thanks!), one way or another I dont mind. My brother is always taking longer, lol.
Iam more than willing to pay another 20 bucks just for multiplayer support. Release it as a separate, independent expansion (maybe only for the complete edition with Twilight and Dread Lords, then I have to get Twilight *bling bling* ) so the peeps that dont need it simply dont have to buy it. And Iam sure, with some more word of mouth and a bit of press coverage many many new players will get it (Id certainly get my friends hooked with GC2, who right now dont bother because they want multiplayer).
p.s.
looking forward to the not-MoM game because of MP too,maybe go and copy&paste some code.
So start a petition already. You haven't argued anything that hasn't already been put forward in twenty pages. If your buddies want GC2 to be multiplayer then get them to sign too. Get everyone else who's argued for multiplayer in this thread to sign it. Get their MP-fanboy-buddies to sign it too. Arguments alone aren't going to make a multiplayer expansion happen, there needs to be a body of players that are willing to support it, and buy it. Without that, you won't get that fresh poll that you're hoping for.
I was not asking for a new poll. Why should my friends bother registering here? There are other games they can play (i.e. Civ 4 or the good ole MoO2). Also not everyone buying a game wants to register on a forum and post there.
If you are interested in turn based multiplayer games you buy turn based multiplayer games. You do not buy single player games that might or might not get multiplayer support in the future.
If there was a game with as much depth and polish as GC2 has plus decent multiplayer support it would rock the market.
hell, if GC1 would be made open source I would go trying to add MP to it lol. heh, there are even multiplayer mods for Master of Magic out there. talk about desperation.
The market is way unsaturated for turn based multiplayer strategy.
I don't see how it's possible to maintain the same depth of gameplay in multiplayer.
On what plane of reality do people always buy and play just one kind of game for the rest of their existence?
You can't always be guaranteed a shot at some multiplayer action so there is plenty market share for single-player gaming, even if it's games that have multiplayer available.
There are multiplayer TBS games over on Impulse, I've looked. Not saying they're anything like GC2 because I haven't tried them, but can't hurt to browse and see what they're about.
Galactic Civlizations is, in my opinion and many others, easily the best TBS game that presently exists. It blows Civ 4 away. One of the main reasons for that is that it doesn't include MP. See the OP. I've played Civ 4 extensively, since its original inception on the Amiga in the early 90's. The series went stagnant at the same time it started looking at MP and has been ever since.
Even if its possible for fans to produce a MP shell for GC2 it wouldn't be worth doing and it certainly would be a mistake for anyone at Stardock to support it. A small number of the players would have an extremely hard time due to random events or unbalanced play and would bitch about it on the net. That small number of people bitching could do an enormous amount of harm to Stardocks - and the games - reputation.
Personally, I look on single player games, with no MP component, in a more positive light. They are what I enjoy, the single player game WILL be better than the same single player component would be if it had MP and I will buy that game and stick with it.
Any move to MP in 'a GC3' would be a huge mistake, in my opinion, and harm the exceptional single player game.
I completly agree im sick of game companys selling out for multiplayer when they could spend more time on single player like the new game stardock's making i hope the new turnbased strategy doesn't have multiplayer Multiplayer tends to kill good games look at heroes 3 and then heroes 4.....Heroes of might and magic 3 was awesome *The Turn based strategy not rpg* It had great fluff and killer strategy with HotSeat Co op so you could play with family or you could connect to friends with private server hosting...but it wasn't the focus no one cared about multiplayer it was all about enjoying the single player sending your guy on a long quest etc. I for one am a single player gamer rpg gamer strategy gamer and generally i hate MMO's they kill any game/universe *Look at warcraft three then WoW*.
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