Hello again!
In this post, I would like to ask the development team specifically about the reduction (although small) of the roster of frigates and cruisers of both TEC and Vasari factions, and the lack of active/passive abilities throughout the roster.
Right now, both factions have one less support ship: the TEC are missing the Cielo Command Cruiser and the Vasari are missing the Stilakus Subverter. The Starbase builders have transformed into capship components, so I don't consider them a missing feature.
Also, most frigates and cruisers used to have one researchable active or passive ability that either gave a basic ship an interesting role in late gameplay or was a straight-up upgrade.
Now, I have to admit that in my games in Sins 1, I was often building only a few support cruisers, and maybe not even both types (to the point that I can exactly remember what a Cobalt or a Kanrak used to look like, but I'm not sure about Cielos and Stilakus), I often skewed away from the abilities that required micromanagement to be effective, and didn't even research them unless I had tons of spare resources to throw at research.
So... are these changes made to cater to the type of semi casual player that I too represent, who ended up underusing or straight-up ignoring these features in the old game, aiming for a more streamlined experience and maybe focusing more on the bigger picture, or are you planning to add these kind of features later?
Also, I am unsure about how I feel about the Garda Mark II upgrade. I love seeing more turrets popping on my Gardas, but at the same time it is a no-brainer upgrade for me. I confess that I do not even want to build Gardas until I have that upgrade unlocked, and it is so close in the tech tree that I always wait for it before building Gardas!
So yes, on one side I would like to see more of that for other ships which are weapon platforms, like the Harcka, but I would also like to make an interesting choice while choosing the upgrade, maybe between 2 different specializations, or having to make a tradeoff of some kind. Right now, I consider a basic Garda just like a stripped down Mark II.
Another simpler solution would be to make the upgrade more substantial and to move it further down the tech tree...
Thank you again for listening and answering!
All the best!
Thanks for the feedback!
The addition or subtraction of units (or any content for that matter) as compared to Sins1 isn't our goal. Although I'm sure the marketing folks would prefer if we could just say "Sins2! Now with twice the units!"
We look at the Sins2 vision holistically and see what is needed. TEC ended up with one less ship, Vasari with equal or more (see below). Overall, both have way more content (factoring in all other systems).
1. TEC is down one unit but overall has more content than before.
2. In terms of useful units the Vasari ended up with equal or more. I'm hesitant to count the minelayer and envoy. Envoy moved to Overseer. Fabricator takes on the other utility position and takes on a more important role for the gameplay (and lore). Subjectively, its much more interesting / fun. In my mind, its so cool its worth 3 units! Zooming in to watch them build ships in enemy territory makes my day. Penetrator is a new ship that fills an important gap missing in the prior Vasari line up. Again, even aside from ships Vasari has more content than before.
3. The Vasari colony cruiser can also build starbases; this isn't just a capital ship capability. Not sure if that is in the public build yet or not but we are using it internally at least.
4. Additional abilities for the smaller ships will be forthcoming. So far, they are all planned to be passive as actives on the smaller units doesn't fit the scale of the game. But things change all the time Scouts abilities will probably come first as they are the most in need of them.
5. We aren't aiming for a more streamlined experience. I did an in-depth description elsewhere (can't recall atm) but the overall complexity of the game has increased a fair bit. The goal is make it so the casual player can play a more complex game without being burdened by that complexity. It should feel equal or easier to play than Sins1 (e.g. tons of user interface improvements for managing your planets, etc.) I should really dig up that other post. On the other hand, hard core players will be able to dig in even more than before.
6. Against the current Ai (not very smart) it probably seems like you are better off waiting for the Mark II before building Gardas. That is not case against humans or for certain strategies optimal play even against the Ai.
TLDR: Gardas are very useful early on without the Mark II upgrade and those resources could be better spent elsewhere until you know you need it. Every dollar counts.
Long version:
Some random examples: if a Vasari player rushes you with caps (which they have 2 of very quickly) you will need flak protection very quickly as they have bombers and phase missiles right out of the gate. Do you want X fewer Gardas/defensive units or a useless Mark II? If you want to rush eco, or take on a number of other strategies every dollar counts and grabbing that Mark II when you don't need it is at the cost of something you do need for your particular strategy or counter. Another example where I would delay Mark II and go Garda is for rush collecting the higher level Derelicts or higher tier planets outside your immediate planets. They almost always have Javelis militia units which will wreck your early units. Unless you chose a high flak cap (e.g. Sova) your early low armor units (and potentially your cap) will get wrecked. Even if they don't die, the damage sustained will slow your expansion as you will have manage repairs costing time/money or wait for reinforcements and you'll have less of a force in the first place because you wasted time and resources on the Mark II. This also places you at more risk of being hit by another player in the process. Finally, if you've got the Gardas already in the field to deal with missiles/strikecraft you are ready to deal with corvettes (e.g. Vasari Raider raid, mobile corvette producing Sova push) on the fly with the press of the Mark II research button.
Thank you so much for the great response, it was a very interesting read. Although I am not a hardcore player, I love to read about high level strategy and tactics!
Nice to hear that extra abilities are coming and they are going to be passive. The kind of gameplay experience you describe is exactly what I like about Sins 2. More complexity, systems and asymmetry, but less APM if you don’t feel like playing it that way!
By the way, know that the asymmetry and the lore emerging from mechanics are already top notch with what we have! I look forward to seeing the next iterations of the game.
Cielo ('heaven') used to do a + damage received on marked target, 40%. (lv 6,9 Kortul skill is now similar), another buff active skill was shield regen, like +1-2.5 per second and something more. (passive hp/shield regen in combat isnt present in sins2)
Subverter used to reduce % of mitigation, like 8%. Now, you have a damage or dps debuff on the diplomatic ship instead. The rest I dont remember. Mitigation was applied even on hull hp in sins1. Sins 2 has mitigation only for shield, that cuts damage to shield by mitigation number.
The other ship overseer I think used to need to point itself at target ship to heal it. (extra impractical)
Garda 1, 2 tiers are now military tier I I think, so transition from Mk.I to II, if research was moved to tier IV-V, then perhaps the downgrade Mk.I to an actual appropriate mk.II would change ? Or an Mk.III where it gains another turret below or one from Harcka.
Like Cobalt could gain a third turret. (those 2 turrets are 1 weapon currently) Or some special EMP weapon that slows down production of cruiser carriers, or use of their skills. Like Hochiko would either get skill cooldown slowed down, or antimatter removed. But as of now, jumping does not cost antimatter, so trying to replicate counters from old game to new 1:1 is imo impractical.
There is an option for ships to have a perma upgrade on the basis Either Or, but that would most likely have to be a perma change. Or having to wait until that other batch got erased, so that all the machinery to produce the thing does not need changing (machine tools etc) But such a possibility would require most other ships have a variety as well.
Someone I know suggested if giving Gauss rounds to a ship would actually add a Gauss turret. Like Akkan getting one so that it can do something other than play propaganda for fire rate increase, while it appears to be shooting at enemies without much success.
There were also suggestions which I liked, for ships getting some sort of upgrade that could be called veterancy, based on how those minor ships perform. In CoH 2 veterancy for units used to be 75% for damage, 25% for damage received. Units used to get vet right before getting wiped. More exp was from hitting more expensive unit. (still, 3x for doing damage, 1x for taking it) If you received dmg and your unit was expensive then exp went up too.
I think this is a good approach. Meaning that even your 'cannon fodder' units, or defenses for doing their appropriate actions receive exp. So end result when maxing their own exp (not shared with and between capships) the veterans receive some upgrade on their ship, if it is significant enough, it could increase its pop cost, like say Garda going from 4 pop cost to 5. However, only applicable if its combat effectiveness rose by 25% to justify said jump. At the same time, you have cap ships that cost 50 per piece whether it is lv1 weakling with 0 equipment attached vs lv 10 with all the best equipment maximizing its impact, also being 50 pop, something I dont see some people suddenly freaking out.
Vulrak penetrator is the new ship as mr. Blair Fraser mentioned, is a sort of new ship, with role equivalent to Ogrov, but going close range, with 40 second attack cooldown (600 base damage, over 20s) Ogrov fires once per 35s, 500 base damage, missile can be shot down though. Ogrov is made of paper, penetrator is a melee range battering ram with very heavy armor.
SoaSE:R had Rankulas ship, (which 10000 years chasers apparently got to and are no more ) which had Assault Nanites skill, that acted as antistructure unit, something that was not found elsewhere in the faction. Now that Ogrov and this new Penetrator can target units with 1200 penetration, there is no armor currently that can have enough armor to reduce their damage (except Vas. Titan lv 10 with 1022 armor and having carrier add Nanite armor - also former Rankulas support nanite function) that it should be possible to go over 1200 armor temporarily. As TEC, Ogrov can be mitigated via 'Missile armor' (IRL, Explosive Reactive Armor, ERA, great for mitigating shaped charge HEAT effect, there is also non-exploside, but tooo much detail)
Anyway, I hope the post was interesting enough to be read )
So, new unit, sort of, Ogrov can hit ultra heavily armored targets with much effect. SoaSE:R it could only shoot at buildings and in case there were too many of the cruise missiles, then they disappeared without doing damage. Quite an epic fail Or success if you were on the receiving end.
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