Hi Stardock, I think it's boring to make the research completely linear again. So everyone applies their cookie-cutter research path again, and it's again a pretty linear path in every game. Sure, you may have to adjust your strategy fitting to the current enemy, but in general it's all pretty obvious and without any interesting discoveries.
I would love it so much more if you have more like general directions you give, like in Ship-Research, the next option you can research comes up by random and may either be weapons or shields or drive speed on level 1. If you researched weapons level 1 the next research option may be something like weapons level 2 or shields, drive level 1 or you have some rare luck and it's some rare (but expensive, for balance) technology which gives you a mighty power boost, which you are rarely allowed to research. This would make single game sessions so much more unique.
I like how each game in Stellaris plays different, because the research options you are able to research come up by random. Not completely random, they build up on each other, but the structure behind that is still very opaque - which I absolutely hate. It's all too random and too invisible.
I would totally love, love a research system which is a hybrid between this system and theirs. Every game plays different, research is not always the same old same old, but you can easily target directions in which you want to go. It should still be strategic, but not boringly foreseeable in each tiny step.
I disagree on the random research. I want to control how my empire develops. If anything I'm pretty unhappy with the research tier system. It doesn't make any sense and it doesn't mesh well with the ability to slap "secret military" research labs onto asteroids that give +2 to military when research stations are universal now. I had a game we're I was gifted 4 asteroids around my start planet. I was able to get tier 2 civilian while practically unlocking tier 4 military. I didn't have the economy to buy anything and it ended up taking almost an hour to unlock the exotic refinery. I honestly almost prefer the old separate speciality research stations over the tier system.
The research tree has been for over 14 years, one research outpost for one step up the tree. I don't like needing 10 research outposts to unlock research 6 levels in. It just doesn't make sense where the old system did.
I disagree with research trees semi-randomly developing. If anything, make this an option. Here's why: I like to play Rebellion against 9 computers set to Vicious. It's only possible if you know which technologies will be available. For Tech its important to get a great economy including Trade and Pervasive Economy early. For Vasari, starbases and their upgrades are critical. For Advent, there's a couple ways to go, but culture spamming is the easiest. If I had to muddle my way into finding critical subjects, I'd be slaughtered.
I think allowing repeat research is the way to avoid a " cookie-cutter research path".
One of my favorite custom mods for Rebellion sets the maximum level for most research subjects to 100. It really allows for specialization. If you want 100 levels of shields, they get expensive, but they are nice. One siege frigate powerful enough to blow up a planet is possible, unless the opponent has researched enough ground defenses to render them useless. I've seen light frigates more powerful than capital ships. And I like that level of specialization. The AI doesn't know how to cope with the changes, so they can be beaten on any level (with the exception of an occasional Advent stalemate condition). But it's hilarious falling back to an overwhelming fleet of carriers, until they jump in to a system maxed out with starbases to the point no more will fit in the gravity well. Then hearing a friend shouting and cussing across the room. Having enough research depth that even though everything is unlocked, research can still progress is a great way to add variability to the game.
I'm not a fan of the tier system. It just doesn't logically make sense to me, to be at point where research stops until you research how to research. It would make more sense if the tiers unlocked as soon as you researched half the prior tier and had the proper amount of research labs (I guess if you absolutely hated the prior tier you could research general studies to bypass it.)
I also prefer setting the research labs to only required one Civilian slot instead of 4. This allows players to choose to specialize instead of expand earlier, especially in a small map or asteroid heavy environment.
I realize the game is in the brainstorming and experimental phase, so I apologize for sounding like I'm shooting down ideas before they get explored. Ideally, when a new idea comes out, I'd like a check box to enable or disable it and see which version I enjoy better. Absent of the ability to test both ways, I feel I have to play them out in my mind and anticipate what I would like better. In this case, I know that if the map and players dictate I choose one type of strategy over another, I don't want to be hamstrung by not being able to research it.
I just want to suggest to give the strategic, but not completely repetitive, research system a try. When I first played Stellaris I just loathed the almost random research system. After I got used to it I learned two things:
To the developers, please: Just try a hybrid, and don't just copy/paste the 100% linear research of the previous game.
I'm a huge fan of the original system but I do think adjustments or improvements could be made to it. When it comes to upgrading anything it will be based on use of the object the more you use the that certain object the faster you can research it.(You will be able to research all techs but I think some techs should take longer so that this idea works better)
Example: Upgrading lasers for TEC will be based on frigates you have so like cobalt frigate uses only lasers so for each of those frigates you make its a .10x for researching anything having to do with lasers. For lasers shirken corvettes use multiple different types of weapons So they would increase the laser tech by .02x so on so forth for other frigates. Upgrading hull, health, and shield will be determined by damage taken and health/shield restored.
For the civilian tree the more orbital structures built the faster you can research other orbital structures
the more enemy ships you have enter your gravity well the faster you can research defensive buildings and/or research certain techs that make you build faster and/or be able to see a phase lane or 2 away.
Basically what I'm saying is cause and effect the more you do something or see something the better you get at it is the idea im going for nothing to difficult. So I think this would be great for a sprawling empire or for a defensive empire it would assist in both ways it makes you better in whatever field you would need help in.
Not saying this has to be added too. But maybe if you have so much of a object it automatically gives you the next level of that objects tech to you because you mastered that tech. This could be a breaking feature that allows the player to kind of research that one tech without having to build a civilian or military research building of that level to research that item.
It seems that the general consensus so far is that we all want something more out of the research system as it is, whether that be options, randomness, depth, or what have you, You've all made some interesting points here, and the feedback is very much valued. I'll be taking notes on all the responses so I can present them to the dev team. That being said I hope you all continue to freely and respectfully continue this thread and share more constructive ideas. Thank you! I'll be checking in.
I also preferred the system with the separated research trees and I am not sure about the tier system tbh. If one needs to research the tech tier for each military and civilian separately, why not implement two different research labs instead to begin with? It is better for scouting. While I like that the team wants to focus on the lore and removed lasers for the TEC, I liked the weapon diversity and the tactical/strategic diversity that came with it (as stated by someone in this thread before). In the end what matters to me however, is how many upgrades there will be and how they will affect ones strategy. What also could be an option is that there are "paths" in research and when deciding for one, the other one will be locked for the rest of the match. (As either one of them may eventually lead to a strong tech that may be game changing for example.)
I would love stellaris style research where you do choose a direction once your boffins "are ready or capable" of researching a given technology. Meaning that they randomly discover the possability of developing particular techs and then based on what you choose have a higher chance of unlocking mkII of that particular tech to research.
I find the Sins1 tech tree to be boring and predicatable. It needs something to spruce it up and provide some repeat gameplay opportunities that play differently. I tend to find that in sins1 I research exactly the same things every single time and that by the end of the game I have most of the time research 80% of things.
I found that it was exciting to see what techs my civilisation was going to get first.
In sins you need to be able to research certain critical things right off the bat. But conversely the more flavoursome and divergent research should be more random or have things you can do to make them more likely as a scientific discovery.
Another idea is to retain the basic research system the game already has, but introduce a chance that any particular research project will fail. For the sake of argument, let’s make it 10%.
So your research failed. Maybe you get one chance to try again, spending the same points all over. This time, if you fail again, you can’t try again until you’ve acquired the next highest tech tier.
Then you can try again, and this time you get a 99% chance of success. But there would still be a slight chance that you could never acquire the tech you were after.
There might be ways to deal with this problem; various work-arounds. But the basic idea is leave the system the way it is but introduce a random element that can ruin your day.
Maybe you could agree to spend extra money on research in order to reduce your risk of failure, or do the opposite and rush the research, but increase the chance it will bomb and you will get ‘tech blocked’.
I don't mind that idea Torchy but you would need to offset it with an ability to put the correct science crews on the project or risk the chance of researching late techs with early scientists early. Stellaris does that as well.
I think as with most things that a game like sins2 should not reinvent the wheel and not be embarrassed to take the best features of other games to make sins2 a good game.
There are many great features available to you once you register, including:
Sign in or Create Account
