Can we get this un-sensefull thing get out .......
-> i have NOT an open border with Civ A
-> Civ A fly anyway in my terretorry .... THIS should only happen if Civ A dont like me - otherwise it makes no sense as he should respect my decision
-> i demand remove from the ships - as we have STILL no "open Borders" ....
-> Civ A get mad over this ... Why ???? (it was clearly his fault .... not mine ..)
-> after doing this "silly thing" (he remove ships, come back after a time) severel times - i have an war with Civ A , an former good friend .... only i like no "open borders" with him .. and he dont respect this from the start ...
learn to live with it
Sorry - but this make an bad and unlogical game mechanic not better ......
If its no improvement ongoing and the game mimic an sitting duck in terms of gameplay evolution (and here it is sadly not even to make an working game mechanics better - but make it work logical at first ...) - then its no wonder only die hard fans (that have "learn to life with it"...) like this game .... and it have (again sadly) not few of this ".. learn to live with it.." senseles things ...
Stellaris have maked last an bad move and disturb mod support (the new launcher) - this was the reason i come back to GC3 to look have things improved .... (the option to enable again "fog of war in own terretory" was the main reason to install it again ..) - but it looks the good things i like on GC3 will easyle crunch by the many,many bad/half-baked game mechanics ...
So hope stellaris get quick sorted and GC3 musst back in the "maybe good - if it was propper developed and things fixed" nexus ....
but thanks for the reply....
Well one of the worst ideas I've seen in games was when civilization changed the open borders treaty to not letting you enter someone's territory without war. It doesn't help endless space with this. They would do better getting rid of it. Closing borders without an open borders treaty hurts not helps games. I haven't learned to live with it. I have to learn to live with it with other games. This is one game mechanic I hope never comes to galactic civilizations. I guess this could be a game option.
So here i musst agree - that we dont agree ....
An 4x space game where i can not control who flies through my territory ... sorry ... an bad game for me
(and then should anyway the game mechanic removed, better than half implemented...)
I would rather see it removed than implemented the way you suggested.
So, R-TEAM, as I understand your argument, it is, in a sentence:
Any races I do not have an Open Borders agreement with should not be allowed to fly through my territory.
Two things I see resulting from GalCiv3 implementing a rule that is "If Race B is in Race A's Territory where Race B and Race A's Relationship Does Not Equal Open Borders, Race B's ships blow up/Race B's move is an Act Of War and now without any hesitation, at Turn End Race A and Race B are At War.":
Lots of wars. Like, lots and lots very early if that mechanic is implemented to start a war automatically without any input from you, the player. This would have the good point - for those of us who dream of Tall Empires - of totally nerfing the Colony Rush as every race would need to be building up military from Turn 1 for the inevitable war when, inevitably, that Terran Survey Ship 4, just minding it's own business, looking for resources/money, enters your Area Of Control.
Also, it's seriously going to ruin where you, as a player, send your ships. Example: You're not at war with the Terrans. However, there's 4 sweet very useful resources clustered around the Arya star system that no Race has claimed, so you build a Constructor with the fastest engines you have to claim it. However, to get to those four clusters, you have to enter Terran controlled space. Do you really want to have to fight a war every time you step out of your own clearly defined Area Of Control? Or do you want to make the AI even more stupid and have it just nod politely at you being in it's Area Of Control but have to accept bloody, gory war if it so much as enters into one hex of yours?
My compromise, not that I honestly think GalCiv3 needs it, is like a Toll Road. Every time a non-No Borders race enters your Area Of Control, 10BC is transferred from their Treasury to yours for every Turn they are in your AOC. Obviously, as you say, Races who don't like you won't care and won't pay the 10BC and will suffer any diplomatic and/or military punishments accordingly.
Both Endless Space and Stellaris have this, go play them.
@Horemvore
a good example of an "die-hard fan" answer with so sensefull infos and Explanations why i am wrong and the point i complain is not valid .... thanks - - for nothing
@ mrblondini
i understand the ground problem .... no question ...
but the non existence of an AI that is capable of handling this is not an valid sense to make an such mess of il-logical behavor ..
ATM i have this options between me and an AI race >
If i get an open border then all is fine ...
If i get not an open border ..
then i cant enter the AI space without problems (i would be not surprised if the AI even dont need sensor contact to "know" i am in here space ...)
the AI on the other side - enter my space at will - and if i say here "ähmm ..this is not right" - i get "again" problems
So - to say it simple, the AI get always like "open borders" .... or i get problems with here .. a very logical, immersiv and sensefull game mechanic ........ > for me not .... this is my main problem with this ... the big advantage the AI have here , and i have simply no chance to get anything other as anyway "open borders" .. then i need this game mechanic not and it would be better to remove it completly -> sadly this stay for more game mechanics in GC3 to more or less
this is sad - i play stellaris (if the mod usage desaster get sorted..) but i found GC3 much more immersive and with partly much better ideas and solutions ... so i would like to play only GC3 ... but the many il-logical things - senseless behavor , break this immersion and then shines GC3 not more ....
Stellaris have problems - but only very few in this area (il-logical things and senseless behavor ...)
[and we musst not compare sales figures and public perception which game is "bigger" .... i found GC3 should get more here, but not with game mechanics that can be from the nineties or like an table top game - we have 2019... ]
@ R-Team - If you took the time to actually search these forums you would see this topic has been put to bed by the devs already.
This dont make it invalide ...
only more sadnes over the future of GC3 if even broken basic things stay this ...
@R-TEAM
If you have ships in an AI's influence without an Open Borders, it does cause a negative to the AI's overall diplomatic standing with you. It counts as a negative to their feelings on you, and pushes them closer to not liking you. This is added to a lot of other factors (e.g., do you have shared borders, is your military much weaker or stronger than theirs, etc). It is not an act of war to enter their influence zone, but they don't like it. The devs have said many times over the last few years that this works as intended. If you don't like it, that's fine, but it is not "broken" or a "bug" .. it works as intended.
If you want to quit playing, then quit playing. But ranting about it will certainly cause some people to roll their eyes, and either ignore your post, or give a one-line flippant remark.
I do believe that GC should have borders that matter more (TM?).
However, firstly, the game needs to differentiate between a "border" and influence. Borders should be bubbles around your planets and star-bases and relatively very small... that results in allowing species fairly easy access to bypass them and move around/across the map. Your influence obviously expands well past these borders.
The player can declare their borders open or closed to any given race, but the other races should be able to ignore this entirely (and obviously there would be diplomatic issues as a result). It's up to the player to decide if the violation of their "closed border declaration" is worth a war or not.
Then there should be different "levels" of war in my opinion... where ships beyond your influence are fair game, but within your influence are not, etc.
Peaceful Coexistence: Zero conflict allowed.
Cold War: Ships can be attacked outside of their influence.
Border War: Ships can be attacked within each other's borders. Planets within your opponents influence can be attacked.
Total War: Invade/Attack anything anywhere.
The point here, is that decoupling the concept of influence and borders is vital to solving the impasse amongst players on these issues and useful for expanding the possibilities for gameplay.
@AdamMG
-> "If you have ships in an AI's influence without an Open Borders, it does cause a negative to the AI's overall diplomatic standing with you. It counts as a negative to their feelings on you, and pushes them closer to not liking you. This is added to a lot of other factors (e.g., do you have shared borders, is your military much weaker or stronger than theirs, etc). It is not an act of war to enter their influence zone, but they don't like it."
this add nothing to the discuss - as it is clear and no one have said "this" is wrong (besides that the AI maybe can "see" your ships even without sensor range ...)
The other is clear an "i read not the post or understand it or care it - but replay anyway anything that dont make sense anyway .." - thanks for nothing
@Gauntlet03
yes good ideas .... but then the devs musst first see an reason to change this ...
If i understand it, thies problem was rised couple of times in the past - but from the devs ignored
and yes - an good and "better" solution as the actual broken machanic would req an addition to war and border mechanic and an addaption from the AI for this - not an so easy task as pushing out an new gfx set ....
How can you possibly expect people, like myself who was trying to help, to continue doing so (or start doing so) if you insult people who do so?
You are clearly a troll.
LOL - His way or the highway.
if you even dont understand why the border mechanic is broken, then it is not my turn to teach you in basic understanding of game machanics and the reason for an game mechanic in games - if you have it not already understand this, then this is anyway a road to nowhere ....
the same, only with other parts of the game ...
if you dont like an closed border in an strategic game with territories - where borders and the control of it (and where can pass and where not) is an important aspect of the present real world strategic/millitary and economic planing and was in the past to roman empire and before - then you simply dont like realistic play (realistic in terms of an scifi game is always a problem, but not for things we already know very well and no logic or other reason exist this will change in the future) - so you can simply say anything from pigs can fly, to why can my ship not instant travel from one point of the galaxy to another, would make the game significant more easy and understandable ... i am more in the "realistic play" group of people - and as i have read, this topic was in numerous other threads, many other player too - if you like unrealistic game play - it is your decision, but discussing with you will then "again" going nowhere as we dont agree to the same basic-style of game playing for an discussion basis...
mhh .. i have thinked, maybe the language is here an problem - as english is not my first language ... so i will be nice and try to explain it to you ....
> the part that you have postet describes the reaction of the AI if i fly in here territorie- this was and is fine
the problem with this game mechanic is, that human player vs AI have no freedom of here decision ...
If i set no open border i have zero advantage - as the AI anyway fly in my territorie ... and if I complain about it , it get more bad, and i cant fly in here territorie ...
So the only logical move is to set every time open borders
so the game mechanic give you not 2 options to choose one -- you have only one , the other make no sense
and so the game mechanic could be as well non existent, would make no difference
this is a broken game mechanic - it is not buggy - but make no sense and is clearly a waste of code
Well I don't think the mechanic is broken, but I would agree that anything can be made better. Guantlet has some good ideas. Guantlet has agreed with me kindof. I wouldn't want to see an arbitrary invisible field where I can't pass without an open borders treaty kind of thing. You have a right to make that policy though. I like the map idea too. Isolationism is a real thing. It got the US industrialism in the early 1800's. Didn't work out for Libya when they tried it. I'd be ok with you be trying to arrest, and ransome my ships if you can catch them. If you try to arrest me my ship has a right to resist the arrest.
I like Gauntlet's ideas. He's usually got good ideas (and I have enjoyed his mods). Diplomacy certainly could use some upgrading, though I'm fairly certain this won't happen until GC-IV. Open border violations are a part of that.
But yeah. If it works as intended, it isn't broken.
NoNo - i dont want an field where no can enter - the handling of an violation from an closed border is an full other story ...
but at first it musst get to the devs that the actual mechanic is broken and dont give me an option ...
The ideas with derailing of the influence from the "real" border is an very good and imho the only right idea at first ...
the handling of the border self than, diplomatic related and other is then a different beast
You simply do not get it. It is NOT BROKEN. Works as INTENDED.
agreed - no open borders should mean no open borders. the AI is so quick to anger when you do it to them but we are supposed to let them do it to us? and when we go to war over it and wipe them out, the rest of the galaxy gets mad at us over that? the AI in this game is a joke. and game that needs to give AI bonuses at higher difficulties to make them 'tougher' instead of 'smarter' is a poor AI.
I think you simply dont get it ....
work as intended mean NOT it is horrible broken ... or have you never seen an part of an game where work as intended from the devs - but is pure bullshit and if it was not here make no difference ... or would be even better ... this is, simply broken ...
but as i have stated already - no logical or sensefull discussion basis with you or other hardcore GC fans where all from GC is shiny and the best on world ... cant be wrong or not perfect ... long live the hypnotoad -- ähhh GC ....
have a nice day
@dfriedman
the AI in GC3 is not the best .. but this is in many strategic games .. so GC3 is here not an negative or positiv example ...
many (nearly all) games push the AI on higher difficults with "unfair" bonuses - i criticize GC3 - but dont support unrealistic bashing !
------------------------------------------
but it is true ... an new player where come to GC3 to explain, why "no open border" make no sense - and in fact all time it is open border for all ships, without consequences (except their own) - and so the full "border mechanic" is an joke ...... ......
and the best GC3 veterans to say on this is "live with it" - as would we live still in the nineties with simply games, where have startet to get more realistic and complex ....
the new player will find better games with more sensefull mechanics ....
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