One of the biggest challenges we have faced in developing Galactic Civilizations III has been map sizes and the memory they require.
On a number of occasions, we have tried to reduce the the largest map sizes down to improve performance and shrink memory requirements. And each time we have attempted to do that, we have ended up with a very vocal outcry of anger.
But large map sizes come with a significant memory cost to be aware of.
Galactic Civilizations, like its inspiration, Sid Meier's Civilization, is a tile based game. Virtually every space strategy game is point based (you travel across the galaxy from point A to point B without going in-between). There's a good reason why they do that: scale. If you want your space game to appear to have an epic scale, then you need to have stars that appear to be very far from one another. For Galactic Civilizations to pull off the same thing, as a tile based game, means a lot more tiles and a lot faster (late game) ships.
For reference, here are the map sizes for Civilization VI:
6996
The largest map size would require around 2GB of memory (on average). So, the largest map size in Civilization VI has around 7,000 hexes.
Let's take a look at Galactic Civilizations III:
That's right, the Ludicrous map size has 100 times more tiles than the largest Civilization VI map. More tiles isn't better, it just means the maps are much bigger and more to the point, and the memory requirements go way up.
Until you get to HUGE map sizes, you don't really need a crazy system to play Galactic Civilizations III. But what frequently happens is that people with perfectly good gaming systems will paly on the Ludicrous size and find it very slow. Why? Because you need 32GB of memory to play it well (or else you'll be swapping out memory constantly to disk).
Even if you have enough memory, picture the pathfinding for 50 players (and GalCiv III supports 128 players) if there's 650,000 tiles to potentially go through. Path finding is what most of your turn time gets consumed by.
Luckily, GalCiv III has a multicore AI which means that each pathfinding task can be distributed to your CPU. But again, even if you have 32GB of memory, if you have 50 players but only a 4 core processor, you're going to be in for a world of hurt.
For optimal performance, you shouldn't have more than 2 players per logical processor (usually 2X your cores). So if you have an 8 core machine with 16 logical threads, you're probably fine with 32 players.
However, I frequently get saved games from players who have 4 core machines with 8GB of memory trying to play on these ludicrous maps with 100 players who have given us a negative review because "obviously" we have a memory leak.
Going forward, I highly recommend not going beyond Gigantic unless you meet the specs above. In version 3.0, we will be listing these requirements when you pick the map size to help players keep themselves out of trouble.
So now you know why we keep trying to roll back those big maps.
I actually discovered that my RAM was installed indirectly (and therefore not functioning) because I had more than enough RAM for the biggest maps, but the they were greyed out.
I've got to admit, while I do like the idea of the ludicrous map size the novelty did start to wear off a bit when I was approaching 300 turns in and had not met a single other empire yet. I'm happy sticking to Immense, or Excessive if I'm feeling really crazy
This journal is very helpful. Thank you. I know my system is sub par for ludicrous but I accept the slow down as a trade to the scale of map. Thank you for such insight.
Using the HexSectorSize for the galaxy sizes in MapSizeDefs.xml, I get different, mostly larger, numbers.
So, the current galaxy sizes are larger than shown above, and maybe the RAM requirements are larger, also.
The same here, except I found some before 300 turns. I didn't have the patience to keep playing on that size, so I quit and went back to playing on Large or Huge.
Ludacris works well for moi with 21 opponents - gives time to get defensive/interceptor task forces semi crunk up before running into more enemies than I could handle.
Though, it does seem to slow down a bit around turn 600 (even as me system claims to have the ability to handle it). Enjoying a really epic game and have yet to fire up a new one from scratch with the latest patch.
luceo non uro
How are you calculating your numbers?
x = HexSectorSize
Total Hexes = 3x^2 + 3x +1
Frogboy, I think the hardware requirement problem could be solved if we can get GeForce Now to support Galactic Civilization III, then we can all play on Ludicrous with 100 players! Civ VI is supported. I've done my part in submitting a request. But as a developer, you may have more pull. I urge everyone to also go to the site and request that they support Gal Civ III. https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/1014295/general-discussion/request-a-new-game/
Wow. I had no idea that RAM requirements were that crazy! I did see a bit of the player count with my CPU though. When I went more than 8 or 9 players, turns took quite a bit longer (4 core cpu). Guess I won't be playing Excessive maps any time soon!
I don't know man something about the current build doesn't seem very well optimized. I've been playing on Huge with 8 players and my rig has been hanging up on loading. The game itself seems to play fine. Each turns take a completely reasonable amount of time to process; but when I load a save it takes a freaking eternity and sometimes it just freezes completely particularly if I'm loading from within an active game and not from the main menu.
I've got a Intel Core i7 4700MQ @ 2.40GHz, 12.0GB Dual-Channel DDR3 Ram @ 799MHz and 2047MB NVIDIA GeForce GT 740M.
Not a monster of a rig by any means; but I've never had problems playing Gal Civ III until recently and by the numbers you're giving us I should be able to handle that size map easily.
Do you have an ssd?
I always felt like the size-selector should pop up a little warning sign when you try to pick anything over Huge. At least then you can say "i told you so".
Play on smaller maps but console in more habitable planets. What matter isn't the size of the map but the number of planets people can colonize.
Looks like immense is my limit. I played once on ludicrous for the achievement, but I had uncommon stars, rare everything else and 10 civs to keep the amount of management I had to deal with down. I played cybernetic so I could mechanic my way to ships fast enough to get around in less than forever. The big empty space between everything really did give it the grand feel of Space.
Brad I don't suppose Steam would allow you to post a chart or two with recommended map sizes and player count based on system memory and CPU logical threads in the actual "System Requirements" section of the Steam store page for GalCiv III would they? Then at least negative reviews on Steam about game speed could at least be referenced to the System Requirements.
I never had a problem with ludicrous games and about 16-20 opponents, and I meet other civs around turn 50-100. I have 8 logical cores and 16 GB of memory, but normally I don't play till the end (mostly because I play very slow and an update of the game comes along before I'm finished), soI don't know what would happen past, say turn 400.
So my question to Frogboy: do the memory usage numbers you give above arte true from the start of the game, or does the memory usage increases slowly until it reaches that numbers?
Yeah quit trying to touch my ludicrous map size please !
But honestly I think your system requirements are very "cautious". My AMD FX 9590 eight core 4.7 GHz with only 16GB of RAM seems to handle ludicrous map sizes fine (usually with abundant stars, common planets, uncommon habitable planets, and 20 opponents, if I remember correctly). I do get an occasional total system lock that forces me to reboot; but I get the same system lock when playing Endless Space 2, so it isn't a Gal Civ 3 problem.
But sure if you think people are giving bad reviews because they are over-extending their rigs on bigger map sizes, then put like a little pop-up that says "WARNING THIS MAP SIZE MIGHT GIVE YOUR SYSTEM A SEIZURE" when people select the bigger map sizes.
P.S. Please fix "Station Garrison"
I think the suggestion of two Civs per CPU core is a bit conservative. I have an eight-core CPU and it easily handles more than that.
With 16GB of RAM, however, it does tend to choke on ludicrous map sizes. (I plan to fix that problem with a 32GB upgrade next month. Man! RAM is expensive these days!)
PS Please fix the "First Starbase" music. It is currently playing two tracks at the same time. It also happens to be one of my favorite pieces in the GalCiv music library.
PPS How can I subscribe to a post without leaving a reply?
TIA,
Richard
No, I don't have a SSD and that's probably one of my PC's weaknesses. Loading times just seem longer on the latest build than they used to be using the same hardware.
Yea, GalCiv has a ton of small files on it so it's very sensitive to disk fragmentation on normal drives.
To me, when playing against the computer, I use Ludicrous. Anything smaller just doesn't allow me to suspend my disbelief.s
Star Trek's "warp speed" was such an easy way to get around for a television show, but it didn't address the actual size of just our own galaxy, which is about 1 quintillion km, or about 100,000 light years across. Getting ANYWHERE with Star Trek speeds would take multiple lifetimes, not a few hours or a few days.
I am ready for a new warp scale to tackle even our unimaginably large galaxy, with its vast swaths of void. I'm so committed to this that I research engine, speed, and life support systems hard in the early game. None of my research facilities will ever use a system with less than 64 GB of RAM, and neither will the machine I use to simulate my galaxy. I'm thinking about increasing my workstation to 128.
I am about to buy a laptop that can support 128 GB too.
So keep the "ludicrous" coming, man. I'm ready for deep space travel. Well, not in real life. I don't think I can grill steaks in space and I'm not sure the wine would taste better anywhere but on Terra Firma.
I rly have to try this now.
I have a 10core and 64GB... never played on Ludicrous. So i will give it a try now.
Please do not nerf Ludicrous. I would prefer a yet larger map.I have played several games going hundreds of turns with no major issues on a ludicrous map and 64 computer AI opponents. On my current game I have 99 opponents and the game told me the maximum was 100 players.
My Computer is an All in one
system specs are
Intel Core i7-6700 CPU @ 2.80 GHz 2.80 GHZ16 GB Ram4GB graphics card NVIDA GeForce 930 MXNo SSD
The only minor issues I have experienced were momentary black hole lock ups when clicking or hovering over a black hole but after decreasing them on the graphics settings not as often. The other issue is when my fleet movement enters the hundreds, pathfinding can take a while, this can be mitigated by zooming in all the way prior to clicking to execute the move. I had a 5 minute lock up with a fleet whose movement was 860 (eight-hundred-sixty). If you dont play ludicrous you have no idea how necessary that extreme movement is late game, and it still takes multiple turns to cross the map. Please un-nerf navigation center on ludicrous maps and allow multiple commanders.
Exploit: Hover your cursor around the fog of war or click a ship whose movement has been expended to move into an unexplored area until a momentary lock up occurs, you have found a black hole.
Much the same as mine Palace Guardian, yet around turn 633 (genius level) Ludacris, scattered, 21 opponents, all the DLC (sans mega events) it will not load - just crashes to the Steam Launch. In the painful process of starting all over, it works like a charm and runs flawlessly
I defragged, hadn't remembered to do it in a while so it was pretty fragmented. That definitely helped, saves and loads are still slow; but much faster than before and it doesn't seem to be prone to crashing.
Would the number of custom ship designs and steam workshop files I have be effecting it? If so how would I go about clearing some of them out.
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