UPDATE: Make sure you read the official statement from Stardock regarding newer events.
Re: November's blog post by Paul and Fred claiming Stardock's objection to their new game being promoted as a "true sequel" constitutes Stardock preventing them from doing a new game.
We are disappointed that Paul and Fred, two people we have a great deal of respect and admiration for, have chosen to imply that we are somehow preventing them from working on their new game.
Stardock has been nothing but supportive of their new project and wish them the best. I personally made the post here on StarControl.com in support of it.
With regards to their contentions:
First, as many people know, the classic Star Control games have been available for sale long before Stardock acquired the rights from Atari four years ago. For the entirety of the time we have held the rights, they have been getting paid for those sales. If they had an objection to the games being sold this is something that could and should have been addressed before we were ever involved.
Second, we have stated, repeatedly and consistently for over four years that we are not using any of the aliens from the classic series. As we have stated, our position is that, to the best of our knowledge, the classic alien IP is owned by them.
We have also discussed, at length, why it wasn't commercially viable for us to attempt to continue or retell the Ur-Quan story. 25 years is just too long of a gap. This is one of the reasons why we have been so excited about Paul and Fred's project. Their game frees us to introduce new characters and a new story into the new Star Control while allowing fans of the classic series a way to continue the classic story. This strikes us as a win-win situation.
Lastly, when we acquired Star Control from Atari in 2013, many assets were transferred to us including the various publishing agreements to the Star Control franchise. The short version is that the classic IP is messy. We understand that this makes them "really really angry" but we weren't a party to that agreement. All we can do is try to put something together that releases them from the restrictions placed on their IP that they agreed to and transfer any and all rights and responsibilities to them. We want them to make Ghosts but we don't want any liability or association with it.
Given the disturbing and unanticipated post by Paul and Fred, we are persuaded more than ever that a clear and irrefutable document that makes it clear that we are not associated or involved with their new game is needed.
We have nothing but respect and admiration for Paul and Fred and wish them well in their new project.
Update 12/4/2017:
Paul and Fred continue to make unsubstantiated claims regarding the DOS-based Star Control games. If they have any documentation to provide evidence to their assertions, we have yet to see them.
Stardock, by contrast, possesses a perpetual, exclusive, worldwide licensing and sales agreement that was explicitly transferred to us by Atari who in turn acquired it from Accolade that has Paul Reiche's signature along with a signed distribution agreement between Atari and GOG for the DOS Accolade Star Control games.
The tone of their blog posts is similar to the kind of correspondence they had with us since the announcement of their Ur-Quan Masters successor, vague, full of demands and without any documentation.
With all due respect to Paul and Fred, they really should talk to competent legal counsel instead of making blog posts.
Update 12/5/2017:
Dealing with the sales and distribution of 20+ year old DOS games is an unusual way to spend a Tuesday afternoon. Nevertheless...
Atari had transferred to Stardock a signed agreement between Atari's President and GOG that we assumed was the agreement. Paul and Fred claimed they were the ones who had set up the agreement and upon verification with GOG, we instructed them to terminate this agreement which they have which we appreciate.
The games are now correctly transferred to Stardock and we will continue to ensue that Fred and Paul receive royalty payments for the games per the publishing agreement. We apologize if anyone was inconvenienced.
Old IP can be messy to deal with. The best way to deal with that is to have the parties talk to each other (as opposed to making public Internet posts) and work something out. We remain committed to dealing with this situation with as much restraint and gentleness as possible.
Update 2/27/2018
Added link to https://www.starcontrol.com/article/487690/qa-regarding-star-control-and-paul-and-fred to address Paul and Fred's latest complaints.
At this stage, the parties are seeking to resolve their disagreements in court. Stardock wishes this could have been resolved otherwise.
For the record, if Paul and Fred had simply announced their game as a sequel to Ur-Quan Masters and requested Stardock to remove the DOS games from distribution, Stardock would have complied out of respect, even if we would have been unhappy that they chose now, after 25 years, to jump back in the middle of Stardock's efforts to bring Star Control back.
However, by promoting their new game as a "direct-sequel" to Star Control (and in other places as the "true" sequel) while using the Star Control box art (which is owned by Stardock) a great deal of consumer confusion has been created requiring Stardock to protect its IP rights.
Other links:
I know what prima facie means. I agree that their public posts aren't a legal case, I even agree they were probably unwise. And yes, we haven't seen their legal arguments and know more about Stardock's case, though we haven't seen Stardock's documents either. There could be a variety of reasons they didn't show the Atari e-mails to Stardock at the time besides "they don't exist" - maybe they felt it best to consult lawyers first. Perhaps I should have just said "plausible" instead of "prima facie", since it's not as strong a term.
I'm saying that I don't think they would get into this conflict if they didn't believe they could make a plausible case. Basically I think they're acting out of sincere belief that the facts are their side, though perhaps misguided. They have been involved in legal matters with Star Control for a long time and have probably consulted with lawyers about it well before Stardock came into the picture - they would not have released Ur-quan Masters if they didn't have some confidence in its legality, for example. They have talked about what parts of Star Control they own for many years and did not just pull stuff out of thin air to start a fight with Stardock.
Mostly I'm responding to the more cynical interpretations I've seen that they are just making trouble for an excuse not to do Ghosts or to sabotage Origins or whatever. You can believe Stardock is in the right without going that far. I think it's more likely F&P have some sort of legal arguments to make than that they've gone crazy or are making stuff up. But again, they could still be mistaken and I'm not saying going public was the best way to do it. So I am withholding judgment for now.
My professional experience has been the opposite of your beliefs. It is actually quite common for a party without a valid, enforceable claim to have a belief that they are entitled to a resolution that they are not able to achieve through litigation. Fred and Paul may not be making spurious allegations out of frustration at how things are versus how they wish things to be, but the mere fact they are making the allegations does not imply any degree of validity to said allegations.
I don't have any idea of the validity of the claims made by either party. I do hope that this issue is settled between the parties sooner rather than later.
Eride.... Ditto.
Stardock owns the Star Control trademark. Paul and Fred calling their game a sequel to Star Control would essentially be a challenge to Stardock's ownership of the trademark. And trademarks have to be protected, otherwise the holder would risk loosing it.
They could call it a sequel to Ur-Quan Masters.
i was not implying that it might not be the case, i was saying if they do, let them release those rights to P&F Doing so, is not going to make SCO any less succesful, they already have the fanbase in place.
Secondly, why on mother freakin earth did they have to go so far to sort this little thing that would have NOTHING to do to either's success to laywers. C'mon we want both parties to work together and get along ! ! THAT will bring Endless success... NOT THIS.... sigh i was so SO SO looking forward to the progress of both Star Control's from Both companies.... It's not too late to resolve this by phone... we want these games both of them, sort this NONSENSE out, we want STAR CONTROL ! ! !
From what I have read, Brad tried to just contact them directly to work it out and was instead referred to P&Fs lawyers. My guess is that this will eventually be worked out between the lawyers that results in both games being made. Stardock has repeatedly said that they want to see Ghosts made, just not under the Star Control name that they now own.
I, of course, have no idea what is going on. But I can't imagine that Stardock would have bought the rights to Star Control if it did not allow them to make Star Control games. People who do things like that look into it in great detail before pulling the trigger, and that alone tells me that Stardock has the right to make Star Control games. If the deal didn't give them that, they never would have entered into it to begin with.
Except, if P&F loose then they are most likely liable for damages for loss of sales... which they were getting royalties for from Stardock anyway.
This is so messed up, they could most certainly be sued for liable. - Besmirching the Brand of Stardock causing loss of money
From what I hear, Stardock is not going full on with their lawyers. They are going full on good guy about this while P&F are going about it.. well.. illegally. It's not something that should be done publicly. They have not even prefaced it by saying the posts are opinion and without prejudice.
If I was Stardock, I'd personally go in a lot harder than they are. But people need to realize how light handed they are being with their own lawyers.
If lawyers are involved it may be a good idea to stop talking publicly about it as I am sure their lawyers will be copying/sreengrabbing every response you make on this forum to use in court if it benefits them in some way you may not fully appropriate without legal counsel of your own.
i was not implying that it might not be the case, i was saying if they do, let them release those rights to P&F Doing so, is not going to make SCO any less succesful, they already have the fanbase in place.Secondly, why on mother freakin earth did they have to go so far to sort this little thing that would have NOTHING to do to either's success to laywers. C'mon we want both parties to work together and get along ! ! THAT will bring Endless success... NOT THIS.... sigh i was so SO SO looking forward to the progress of both Star Control's from Both companies.... It's not too late to resolve this by phone... we want these games both of them, sort this NONSENSE out, we want STAR CONTROL ! ! !
That depends on what you mean by rights.
If it is about the Star Control name there are several issues with it:
If you mean the rights to the IP, Stardock already wants to do that.
"All we can do is try to put something together that releases them from the restrictions placed on their IP that they agreed to and transfer any and all rights and responsibilities to them. We want them to make Ghosts but we don't want any liability or association with it. "
From the first post.
Like many people, I am torn in this situation as well. From a gaming experience perspective I've always considered SC2 to be the best computer game ever made. Paul & Fred are among the few computer game designers that I admire. So is Brad, and Galactic Civilizations which makes Master of Orion look like Candyland. But so far what I see is Paul & Fred making emotional demands without having any legal basis behind it. There are a lot of points that indicate this too me, many mentioned above in this thread.
This generation was raised on the tactics of Vladimir Lenin, and they will reach for any straw to twist into some type of affront against humanity. So these days a situation like this can explode into those people waging a war to demonize whatever they decide they don't like. The truth of the situation is not only not relevant, but a thing they actively seek to obscure because the truth is never on their side.
So I think it's also important to add to Rhonin's point that Stardock has even gone so far as to offer to allow Paul & Fred to use the Nitrous engine to make their game if that would help them. Considering how new their engine is, and that the whole reason they made their own engine was to add a uniqueness to their games that nobody else would have, that seems like a pretty unheard of and unprecedented offer too me. It also shows how far they are willing to go to help Paul & Fred make their game.
So, obviously, anyone saying that Stardock wants to prevent Paul & Fred from making their game is intentionally ignoring the truth so that they can play Vladimir Lenin's demented little game with this issue. It is the exact opposite of the truth.
Honestly, you need to read up more on the facts of the case. You're making assertions that are (all) completely wrong, and it really doesn't help when a lot of armchair lawyers chime in on a case that is now with the real lawyers.
My professional experience has been the opposite of your beliefs. It is actually quite common for a party without a valid, enforceable claim to have a belief that they are entitled to a resolution that they are not able to achieve through litigation. Fred and Paul may not be making spurious allegations out of frustration at how things are versus how they wish things to be, but the mere fact they are making the allegations does not imply any degree of validity to said allegations. I don't have any idea of the validity of the claims made by either party. I do hope that this issue is settled between the parties sooner rather than later.
I wish I could give you more than +1...
Agreed 100%.
Anyway, screw Paul and Fred, they made us wait 25 years before even announcing intention to make another game, and THAT itself was triggered by Stardock. Go Stardock go!
This seems like the sort of thing that ought to be resolved with a well-drafted settlement and release document, which could clarify and outline the respective rights of the parties. There's no need for this to go to actual litigation, at least from the peanut gallery where I'm sitting. I remember discussing some of the legal issues ages ago on the old Pages of Now and Forever, and as I recall, Accolade held the rights to the trademarks for "Star Control" and "StarCon," as well as the distribution rights for the original three games, and Paul and Fred held the IP for the story and designs of the characters and such for SC1 and SC2 (and by extension, some of SC3, as a derivative work of SC1/2). (I might be wrong about that, though, and the game may have been a "work for hire" under the Copyright Act.)If SC1/2 were "works for hire," then this is an open and shut issue. Accolade would've held the copyrights, which then transferred to Atari, which then transferred to Stardock.If, however, the copyright for SC1/2 reverted back to Paul and Fred....then yeah, you kind of have a mess. Not one that can't be parsed through legally, but one that definitely could lead to confusion and conflicts over who has the right to do what. To my way of thinking -- again, from the peanut gallery -- the simplest approach is this:- TFB enters into some kind of negotiated royalty arrangement with Stardock for SC1-3.
- Stardock retains distro rights on SC1-3 (likely in perpetuity).
- TFB either retain or are granted a perpetual, irrevocable, worldwide, exclusive license to the copyrightable material in SC1/2, and the derivative material from SC3 (Stardock can keep the Xchagger, Harika/Yorn, etc.).- TFB are free to make their own sequel to SC1/2, provided that it (1) does not advertise itself as a Star Control sequel, and (2) does not otherwise use the Star Control trademark. They are explicitly permitted to advertise the game as a sequel to the Ur-Quan Masters in promotional materials. - Alternatively, TFB are given a license to use the SC2 trademark (and only the SC2 trademark) in marketing materials, and otherwise are given a free hand to make their game. They are also explicitly required to indicate in marketing materials that they and their new game(s) aren't affiliated with or in any way connected with SC:O and StarDock.
- SC:O and subsequent SC-titled games are made through StarDock.
- Both parties agree to an anti-disparagement clause, with injunctive relief.Aside from paying the lawyers to draft and review the documents, you could even forego an exchange of money, or make it at least a very inexpensive exchange, and call it a day. No need for rancor or public disparagement of any kind. Everyone gets to make their game, the rights are sorted and clarified, and life goes on.
One reminder, TFB isn't involved in any of this. Paul and Fred are the ones who claim to own the characters and lore of SC1/2.
The single biggest issue I've seen is that people don't really understand what a trademark is. A trademark isn't just the name.
Trademarks exist to ensure consumers know the origin of the good will and reputation of a product. In the case of Star Control, that was Accolade->Atari->Stardock.
Being the lead designer or an author is very worthwhile. But it doesn't give you ownership of a product.
For instance, imagine what would happen to Bungie if they had marketed Destiny as a sequel to Halo.
With regards to the classic series, one way to think of it is kind of like those games that have licensed music tracks on it. You've probably heard of cases where games had to take out certain music tracks because their license to those songs has expired. With SC classic, you have a licensing agreement between Accolade and Paul. Accolade paid Paul for a license to certain assets to be included in Accolade's Star Control game.
The argument appears, reading from their post, to stem from them claiming that the license for that IP has expired. However, our problem with that is that the license is perpetual. There is no termination date and the games were already being sold before Stardock acquired them from Atari. Nothing has changed in that time. They've been cashing checks.
IP can be a messy situation. But putting aside the argument of whether the licensing agreement is in place, you have the huge issue of confusion. There is only ONE Star Control and it's owned by Stardock. From 2013 until recently, there was no confusion on any of this as far as we could tell.
I still hope something amicable can be worked out. I've had 4 years of purely positive experiences with them. The first time I knew that they had a personal issue with me was when I read it on their blog. And as a massive fanboy, that was very saddening.
Are you saying they didn't contact you about taking down SC1-3 from Steam?
My mistake. I thought they basically were TFB.
Sounds like you guys have a laches claim, at least, even before you get to the merits of the argument.
Obviously I can't comment very much on the situation. I'm certainly not an IP attorney but I have a lot of first-hand experience in this kind of thing.
Years ago, Entrepreneur magazine sued Stardock over the game Entrepreneur over trademark even though they didn't have a trademark in the relevant class. In the end, we agreed to name its sequel something else (The Corporate Machine was thus born).
I played both SFC 1 and 2 and remember the manual for it (it was great) and i was very much into the those games as I was a huge SFB player back in those days. But i also remember the state of those games when they were released, and if me recollection is correct there was a huge problem with what was called a 'memory leak' which caused the game to stall.
In today's culture of pre-release's and kickstarter campaigns the reactions the Erik Bethke received from the fans seems almost quaint, the manual was spot on with tactics in terms of the game. But I do remember that there was a lot of negative backlash against Erik and Co. at the time from old time SFB players like myself. It did get fixed eventually but i remember at the time that there was a huge question of who really was responsible for the whole mess. There was the 14 Degrees East/Taldren/Interplay/dynaverse mess about who was responsible for the whole mess and it just ended up tarnishing what was a great product.
Of course i;ve also played SC2 and loved that game as well so I've found this current legal situation more than a little disappointing. Im still trying to sort out the details myself, but it all seems very familiar.
I did read about this here. Glad to read the response from you guys because in truth, my perception was a bit skewed when I first read about it. It's very easy to jump on the hater wagon, especially when its the creative folks vs the 'evil corporation'. But your post made me realize there is more to it than what sometimes meets the eye, at first sight.
Again thanks!
This is a complete waste of time and money that could be otherwise spent on developing the game.
You are also losing a lot of good will from the community.
Stop this nonsense once and for all and just sit down like grown man and reach an agreement where you can all use the damn Star Control name.
Fred and Paul sold the rights, Stardock later bought them from Atari the then current owner. No one forced Fred and Paul to sell the rights, they made a decision that was best for them at the time and they have to live with it. That is the way society functions. Stardock purchased it in good faith. Stardock has invested millions of dollars into this game, something that Fred and Paul didn't care to do for two decades until after Stardock took it upon themselves to invest money into pulling the franchise out of irrelevancy.
You should be THANKING Stardock. Fred and Paul clearly didn't care about this IP or they would have done something, anything with it over the last two decades. There would be no new Star Control game if it wasn't for Stardock buying the rights and dropping millions into making a new game.
More specifically, Paul and Fred never owned the trademark.
And Stardock isn't claiming any copyright rights on Star Control I/II.
I read the court filings linked on the arstechnica article. Now I know why NightShadowPT brought this back up.
Apologies for my mischaracterization above on what IP was at issue. I hadn't read the underlying documents at the time of my response.
this is all very disappointing...
Indeed.
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