UPDATE: Make sure you read the official statement from Stardock regarding newer events.
Re: November's blog post by Paul and Fred claiming Stardock's objection to their new game being promoted as a "true sequel" constitutes Stardock preventing them from doing a new game.
We are disappointed that Paul and Fred, two people we have a great deal of respect and admiration for, have chosen to imply that we are somehow preventing them from working on their new game.
Stardock has been nothing but supportive of their new project and wish them the best. I personally made the post here on StarControl.com in support of it.
With regards to their contentions:
First, as many people know, the classic Star Control games have been available for sale long before Stardock acquired the rights from Atari four years ago. For the entirety of the time we have held the rights, they have been getting paid for those sales. If they had an objection to the games being sold this is something that could and should have been addressed before we were ever involved.
Second, we have stated, repeatedly and consistently for over four years that we are not using any of the aliens from the classic series. As we have stated, our position is that, to the best of our knowledge, the classic alien IP is owned by them.
We have also discussed, at length, why it wasn't commercially viable for us to attempt to continue or retell the Ur-Quan story. 25 years is just too long of a gap. This is one of the reasons why we have been so excited about Paul and Fred's project. Their game frees us to introduce new characters and a new story into the new Star Control while allowing fans of the classic series a way to continue the classic story. This strikes us as a win-win situation.
Lastly, when we acquired Star Control from Atari in 2013, many assets were transferred to us including the various publishing agreements to the Star Control franchise. The short version is that the classic IP is messy. We understand that this makes them "really really angry" but we weren't a party to that agreement. All we can do is try to put something together that releases them from the restrictions placed on their IP that they agreed to and transfer any and all rights and responsibilities to them. We want them to make Ghosts but we don't want any liability or association with it.
Given the disturbing and unanticipated post by Paul and Fred, we are persuaded more than ever that a clear and irrefutable document that makes it clear that we are not associated or involved with their new game is needed.
We have nothing but respect and admiration for Paul and Fred and wish them well in their new project.
Update 12/4/2017:
Paul and Fred continue to make unsubstantiated claims regarding the DOS-based Star Control games. If they have any documentation to provide evidence to their assertions, we have yet to see them.
Stardock, by contrast, possesses a perpetual, exclusive, worldwide licensing and sales agreement that was explicitly transferred to us by Atari who in turn acquired it from Accolade that has Paul Reiche's signature along with a signed distribution agreement between Atari and GOG for the DOS Accolade Star Control games.
The tone of their blog posts is similar to the kind of correspondence they had with us since the announcement of their Ur-Quan Masters successor, vague, full of demands and without any documentation.
With all due respect to Paul and Fred, they really should talk to competent legal counsel instead of making blog posts.
Update 12/5/2017:
Dealing with the sales and distribution of 20+ year old DOS games is an unusual way to spend a Tuesday afternoon. Nevertheless...
Atari had transferred to Stardock a signed agreement between Atari's President and GOG that we assumed was the agreement. Paul and Fred claimed they were the ones who had set up the agreement and upon verification with GOG, we instructed them to terminate this agreement which they have which we appreciate.
The games are now correctly transferred to Stardock and we will continue to ensue that Fred and Paul receive royalty payments for the games per the publishing agreement. We apologize if anyone was inconvenienced.
Old IP can be messy to deal with. The best way to deal with that is to have the parties talk to each other (as opposed to making public Internet posts) and work something out. We remain committed to dealing with this situation with as much restraint and gentleness as possible.
Update 2/27/2018
Added link to https://www.starcontrol.com/article/487690/qa-regarding-star-control-and-paul-and-fred to address Paul and Fred's latest complaints.
At this stage, the parties are seeking to resolve their disagreements in court. Stardock wishes this could have been resolved otherwise.
For the record, if Paul and Fred had simply announced their game as a sequel to Ur-Quan Masters and requested Stardock to remove the DOS games from distribution, Stardock would have complied out of respect, even if we would have been unhappy that they chose now, after 25 years, to jump back in the middle of Stardock's efforts to bring Star Control back.
However, by promoting their new game as a "direct-sequel" to Star Control (and in other places as the "true" sequel) while using the Star Control box art (which is owned by Stardock) a great deal of consumer confusion has been created requiring Stardock to protect its IP rights.
Other links:
At the time, they had provided zero evidence that this was the case. You do understand that right? We had:a. A contract between Atari and GOG that was transferred to us.b. An email from Paul that confirms that we have the publishing agreement.c. It's on GOG being sold.If they had provided some evidence, any evidence, that showed this wasn't the case sometime in the previous 5 years that would have been a very different discussion.2. Did not P&F correct their illegal use of your trademark by changing the language around their sequel?
Why are you assuming this isn't the case? We absolutely did so and tried to work out a coexistence agreement that they walked away from.And do date, we have officially received nothing whatsoever to corroborate their claims. They've put more up on their blog than they've sent for legal review. They make lots of claims, some that appear, from our viewpoint, to conflict with previous claims they've made in IRC chats, on forums, etc.
Thanks for continuing the dialog. Did you know I actually didn't know you were Brad until the last few days? I assumed "Frogboy" was just a community manager of the forums or something. I figured Stardock's CEO would just be to busy to have the level of involvement that you have. It was quite a surprise when I googled and learned who I was actually talking to.
To your first point, I understand and take you at your word that it was just an honest mistake caused by poor communication - mainly by P&F who should have been more forthcoming much earlier on their beliefs on what they owned. I give the benefit of the doubt that there's no malicious intent, but can you understand that you are now directly claiming the rights to sell those games and use the aliens and the like in them as you see fit and how that could come across to P&F as every bit as bad as the harm you perceive done to you?
To your second point, did they walk away from the table permanently or just reject your initial proposals and/or have differences of opinions on who owns what?
You're openly stating that you WILL use the aliens from SC1, SC2, and SC3 in future games. If P&F consider those to be owned by them - as you consider the Star Control trademark to be owned by you - why shouldn't they assume that you're the one operating in bad faith?
The core of this entire disagreement from my perspective revolves around a difference of opinion on who owns what piece of the Star Control games and lore. You are, understandably, extremely pissed off that P&F used your trademark without permission and feel that they were unreasonable in not accepting your settlement proposal.
But...your settlement proposal seems to claim the rights to use things that P&F feel belong to them and, again just from their point of view, they don't feel that they should need to ask your permission to use the Spathi in "Ghosts of the Percursors". (Even if, before all this had happened, you would have granted it.)
From their point of view, races like the Spathi belong to them and you aren't doing them any favors by not using them in Star Control Origins out of respect, you simply don't have the right to do so. And if they concede that they have to ask your permission to use the Spathi in the future, no matter how willing you would have been to give those rights a couple of months back, they've lost legal ownership of something that they feel belongs to them.
Put a different way, they feel that you should need to ask their permission to use the Spathi and not the other way around. From their point of view, you're probably the one coming across as trying to infringe on something they own and are likely as upset as you are about their trademark infringement. Just like from your point of you, you feel you need to aggressively protect and defend your trademark rights, from theirs it seems like they need to go in and aggressively protect what they feel they own: most of SC1 and SC2 (and possibly part of SC3...not sure).
They may be COMPLETELY wrong. (Or completely right. What do I know? Not a lawyer.) But just like I give you the benefit of the doubt, I assume that they genuinely believe they own the things they are claiming to own. (A belief backed up by other companies having acknowledged their claims previously.)
As a personal side note, as someone who was disappointed to learn that all of my favorite alien races from SC1-SC3 aren't going to be in Origins, the thought of them being back again in a future game IS very exciting on a personal level.
But I can also completely understand that if P&F, rightly or wrongly, think they own the rights to them all, openly claiming those rights was bound to not go over well.
No what motivates me to makes things are the people who use what we make. Even back in the OS/2 days I hung out on Usenet to talk to the beta testers.
The program (game, software, whatever) is less important to me than the people who use them.
Right now, legally, our position is that we absolutely have those rights. We simply aren't exercising them.
Claiming to have rights to something is no where near on the level of someone launching a new product that they claim to be the sequel to ours.
There is only one new Star Control game. Star Control: Origins.
It would take a level of cognitive dissonance that I can only imagine to conflate the two as being remotely equivalent.
Walked away as in, "we are done" and wouldn't talk to us anymore. I'd have posted all those emails but the order barring discussing settlement discussions came in before those could get posted.
Stardock has trademarks the Spathi, Orz, Ur-Quan, etc. Those species will appear in future Star Control games. What Paul and Fred want or don't want at this stage no longer factors in.
There is the Star Control multiverse. That multiverse includes the Tywom, Scryve, Mu'kay as well as the Spathi, Ur-Quan, Orz. The histories of our Spathi and Orz will be different than from the ones expressed in the older games as those stories and lore are not owned by us and that's fine. We aren't interested in that lore. The fan community or even Paul and Fred can continue those stories.
There shouldn't be. Stardock owns the trademarks. Paul and Fred claim to own the copyrights to SC1/2. Stardock doesn't have any claims on the copyrights to SC 1/2.
They have caused us tangible, measurable harm by announcing their new game as the true sequel to Star Control II and disrupted our marketing program. They will need to compensate us for that.
In turn, they believe we didn't have the right to distribute the 25-year old DOS games on Steam. If they are right they could, potentially, ask for the few thousand dollars that we collected. But the jury is, literally, out on that. They have also claimed that we don't really have the trademark to Star Control because...reasons and that somehow we aren't allowed to have a ship designer and don't like other elements of the new game that they think (wrongly) that they have some right to.
If they had launched their game as Ur-Quan Masters II: Ghosts of the Precursors, we wouldn't be having this discussion. But they didn't. And if they had, I doubt many would have cared beyond the hard-core fans. Over the years, there's been countless X-COM-like games made by the "Creators". In reality, as Firaxis has made obvious at this point, most people care about the brand-name. Not who programmed what years ago (same for Fallout).
That ship has sailed now. If they want to use aliens associated with Star Control they'll have to either license them from us or litigate.
We went years bending over backwards to please them. You can see over the past few months how much good will that got. Our fans expect aliens associated with Star Control to be in Star Control games. There's no longer any reason to show deference to them. You can find countless posts from people saying "It's not Star Control if it doesn't have the Ur-Quan". Star Control: Origins won't have these species (we're too late into development for one thing and second, it wouldn't fit into our lore timeline). But they will in the future.
We don't care what they want anymore. They exhausted their good will with us. The sheer hypocrisy of people who make a living making Spyro games (i.e. stuff created by others) is distasteful. We never needed their permission to use the Spathi. We chose not to use the Spathi out of deference to their wishes. There is no longer any reason to defer to them for any reason whatsoever.
At the end of the day, the fans want new Star Control games and we are working very hard to bring them an amazing new Star Control game that exists in a new universe that combines a cast of new characters along with adding alien species that are associated with Star Control.
They had 25 years to do a new game. I offered to sell them the Star Control IP. They didn't want it. So the men and women at Stardock, people who are my friends and colleagues who have families and responsibilities too, have spent 4 years on a new Star Control game and it is really...really good. And it is almost done.
If I could attempt to summarize, just for convenience's sake since the posts are getting very long at this point...
I don't think P&F are attempting to launch a game that is a sequel to yours. They're attempting to launch a game that is a sequel to "Star Control 2" but without the "Star Control" in the name since you own that.
But they do not consider you to own anything else about SC2 but the name of it, so they do not consider their game to be a sequel to anything that Stardock owns. Of course this is a core area of disagreement but worth pointing out for the sake of our discussion.
Your wording on a particular part of your post was a little interesting to me.
"Right now, legally, our position is that we absolutely have those rights. We simply aren't exercising them."
Out of deference for the current legal situation I'm going to attempt to step a bit carefully here but at first read this came across more as "positioning" than genuine belief. I'm a bit wistful thinking about the subtext of this conversation and how it might be playing out a bit differently if you were not needing to be careful about your legal positioning and strategy.
"Stardock has trademarks the Spathi, Orz, Ur-Quan, etc. Those species will appear in future Star Control games. What Paul and Fred want or don't want at this stage no longer factors in."
This (and a few other statements in your post) are presented as statements of fact (and maybe they are...I dunno), but they're really the very core subject that this legal dispute is revolving around: exactly what did Stardock buy when they bought "Star Control"? Your contention is X. Their contention is Y. You and they disagree. Cool. That happens. But it's not personal.
"That ship has sailed now. If they want to use aliens associated with Star Control they'll have to either license them from us or litigate"
Well. Apparently they've chosen the latter because they think you're incorrect in what you own and what they own.
"They have caused us tangible, measurable harm by announcing their new game as the true sequel to Star Control II and disrupted our marketing program. They will need to compensate us for that."
"If they had launched their game as Ur-Quan Masters II: Ghosts of the Precursors, we wouldn't be having this discussion. But they didn't. And if they had, I doubt many would have cared beyond the hard-core fans."
The popularity of "Star Control" the brand is directly related to SC1 and SC2. If it wasn't, you wouldn't be so protective of it. But do you really think that someone who values the brand "Star Control" is going to be fooled if a game comes out called "Ur-Quan Masters II" instead of "Star Control: Ghosts of the Precursors?"
Anyone who knows what "Star Control" is also knows what "Ur-Quan" are, don't you think?
Hell why didn't you just say so? That's good enough for me.
@Talonius - It looks like we are not going to agree. You have some valid points, but I just think the benefit of the consumer is more important. I will say that if Capcom acted like Reich and that other douchebag, Megaman Unlimited wouldn't be a thing, nor would Rock Force, or Revolution, or Mega Maker. That alone tells me we have more upside.
You'd have to ask Paul and Fred. They're the ones who kept promoting their game as the sequel to Star Control. You can't have it both ways.
I've got no problem with doing that. Cheers mate.
BTW, Talonious, it's been super enjoyable talking to you.
And that's fair, but the reverse is also kinda true isn't it?
Logically, you can't claim that material damage has been done to Star Control Origins if nobody knows or cares who Paul and Fred are. And didn't they offer to never use the name "Star Control" again going forward? "Kept promoting" implies that they did it often and repeatedly. But to my knowledge they only did so once and changed it when asked?
I get the timing really sucks when they did use it, but isn't more damage being done by prolonging that than just asking them to change the wording and be more careful going forward behind the scenes? (Of course it's possible you did that and they refused.)
Likewise. I know it's a bad subject but the conversation has still been good.
It may well be statements of fact at this point since Stardock has filed for trademarks for all the SC1-2 aliens fairly recently while the IP is still under litigation. I really wish Stardock didn't do that - stirring the pot a bit more.
This is the Stardock strategy that I cannot get on board with especially during a time when all parties are still waiting for the final court ruling on F&P's IP case. It makes me really sad and sick to my stomach. Again, I really wish Stardock didn't do that.
They did try to avoid it, but Reich and his fellow Copyright Fascist backed Stardock into a corner.
I don't think Stardock has gained anything positive by filing trademarks for the SC1-2 aliens but it definitely has soured my view of the company.
By the way, I notice you call Reich by his name just fine, but have this fierce vitriol against Fred. Would you care to elaborate? I haven't seen them individually take stances on the issue on different intensities - both of them pretty much echo each other - so if there's an underlying issue I'm unaware of, I'm curious to know what, if you don't mind.
Telonious, I want to start by apologizing for calling you out in my post regarding "arm chair" lawyers. I went back over your posts and I think I conflated you with Elestan. Now to my post..
The thing I want to highlight is that it doesn't matter why the trademark has value. Stardock purchased and owns it. Fred and Paul have no right to benefit from the mark, none! If Fred and Paul wanted to benefit from the mark they easily could have purchased it from Brad when he offered it to them at cost.
I think Brad makes an important point in that they elected to initially promote it as a sequel to Star Control. Fred and Paul were well aware that they didn't own the mark and couldn't use it (at least, you'd hope), they did it anyways. I think I read an email posted somewhere where Fred and Paul even stated associating their game with Star Control would piss Brad and Stardock off but they didn't care (someone tell me if I am making this up?).
Launching their game on the back of that mark, possibly having the PR company they hired seed headlines and stories to gaming media using that mark (this is typical in this industry), liking and republishing social media posts using that mark... are all flagrant uses that they knew or should have known were not licensed and would negatively impact Stardock's promotion of it's new Star Control game. Timing matters. In my opinion, the fact they stopped after Stardock initiated legal proceedings shouldn't be viewed positively in their favor. As professionals in the same industry as Brad, they knew what they were doing when they did it.
What is the name of Paul and Fred's game?
To the first part of your post: No worries Eride. Forums can move quickly and posts can sometimes jumble together a bit. I appreciate it nonetheless.
To the meatier part:
Oh yeah. I agree completely that P&F have no right to use a trademark that someone else owns (and to my knowledge nobody is disputing that Stardock owns the "Star Control" trademark), regardless of how the trademark got it's value. I'm not disputing that. I just question how deliberate and/or malicious the intent was.
I admit that I'm not fully aware or up to speed of all the things you are referencing in your post. It sounds fairly extensive but I personally am only aware of a fairly limited one or two time use of the trademark that could be accidental and/or incidental.
As you say, a widespread and continual usage would be something else entirely and would cause me to raise one Vulcan style eyebrow.
In their counter-suit, they are attempting to cancel our trademark. Which was what ended the last of our good will since they were, in essence, trying to set fire to the IP we had spent a considerable amount acquiring and building on. And yet, some of their fans are cross with us for trademarking alien names already associated with Star Control -- something that we did after they decided to try to cancel our trademark.
To the former...definitely not a point in their favor. OTOH, to the latter...not a point in your favor. Timeline wise, I'd say you look a bit better in that exchange if they went after your trademark first and then you went after their copyrights in response by applying for trademarks to the various alien names that they consider their copyright. Maximal legal positioning.
But to be honest, from a strictly public perception POV, neither side comes out of that exchange looking great IMO. But I'm guessing you already know that. I think that maybe I just might be getting a bit better feel for the reading between the lines part of all this.
Optics, his name is Reich, the other Douche does not have such bad optics with HIS name. Combine this with their Copyright Fascism, and the limits of human sentience, and it can't be unseen. Even if the impact is little, anyone who notices these optics will think less of the 2, if only slightly, because it has obvious negative associations.
Also, the fact that Arthur Chu, a man disgraced and divorced for beating his wife, and famous for making an ass of himself on Jeopardy, took Reich and Douche's side should effectively end this debate.
To the former...definitely not a point in their favor. OTOH, to the latter...not a point in your favor. Timeline wise, I'd say you look a bit better in that exchange if they went after your trademark first and then you went after their copyrights in response by applying for trademarks to the various alien names that they consider their copyright. Maximal legal positioning.But to be honest, from a strictly public perception POV, neither side comes out of that exchange looking great IMO. But I'm guessing you already know that. I think that maybe I just might be getting a bit better feel for the reading between the lines part of all this.
We aren’t going after their copyrights. You can’t copyright a word. They are entitled to what they authored. We are entitled to the trademarks. Remember: we have always stated we had the right to have the Ur-Quan, Spathi, etc. in Star Control. We have been consistent on that point.
To understand the mindset we’ve been dealing with you just need to read their complaint.
I want to point out that they put this in their lawsuit as evidence against me. This is a quote of me that I presume they think makes me look bad.
I assume everyone here understands that ideas aren’t copyrightable. I also can assure you that I may be inspired again by someone’s art or music or poetry. Clearly, I must be stoppped before I am inspired again.
I never realized that SC2 was such an original work untainted by inspiration from other sources.
I'm sorry, but I'm lost. What exactly do you mean by "optics" and "HIS name"?
Just an aside...[friendly reminder]....
Many of you won't know me....but I've been 'here' quite some time....
Whether or not you are pro or anti 'Paul and Fred' [or pro or anti 'Stardock'] no-one is seen in a good light calling one side or the other names. It simply lessens your comments' worth.
State an opinion/belief/guess/whatever...but only attack the topic, not the person...
Let's just say that if you have no familiarity, you a VERY lucky person, as it is one the most horrific occurrences in modern history. Best to leave it at that.
He's trying to make a connection between PR3 and Hitler. The mods really need to smarten up here. This thread is turning embarrassing.
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