One of the most annoying things to me about GalCiv and many 4X is tech trading.
I saw this old post about it https://forums.galciv3.com/449087/page/1/#3407634 but couldn't reply to it, but it sums it up nicely by stating it's one of the most exploitable mechanics in 4X, and that's so true.
You can watch people playing older versions of Civ on high difficulties and a large part of success is manipulating bad AI to do tech trades to keep up. That's not really strategy, that's cheese. 4X need less or no cheese, not built in cheese.
In GC3 the AIs basically do collective research, because between the AIs and the minors, they end up trading a ton and it's like you against everybody as far as researching goes (or you do some trading too, which is not my idea of fun). I play with rare minors, which still seems to yield a huge amount of minors, and they're basically conduits for the AIs to get all techs with ease.
Or, as a player, you leverage moronic AI and trade techs to gain an advantage yourself.
Either way, either the AIs exploit you, or you exploit them. It's not a good game mechanic even if exploit is one of the 4 X's.
In some games the no tech brokering thing can help but not really in GC3, because there are so many minors that you still end up with collective research.
If you turn of tech trading entirely it seems to cripple the AIs because they just don't seem to prioritize researching enough or to know that they need to due to lack of trading being available.
So IMO, get rid of tech trading entirely and either go the Civ 5 route and have something like research agreements, or something like that. We already have tech treaties in GC3. Something like this is good because it means you need to have good relations with factions to boost your tech - or need to be dominant and be able to demand tech streams via coercion.
Something, anything, would be better than having situations like the current GC or like Civ IV where the AIs do collective research.
Tech trading in Gal Civ is a hallmark of the game. I doubt anyone would want to completely disable it, myself being one of them. I tend to always play with disable tech brokering which makes it far more fun. You seem to have forgotten a tenet of 4X games and that is Xploit which what we do with the ai.
Perhaps instead is an ai that can game the player with tech trades for its own victory path and make the tendency to trade out techs harder on the player based on how much it likes you.
Upon initial contact most races are suspicious of you and this status should stay for a LONG while thus gating the ability to tech trade until you do something for it. Killing pirates, initiating trade routes, disliking the same races, having same ideology would all be means to get past the 'suspicious' diplomacy position we should have on initial contact.
This is just my opinion of course. Rather than remove a feature what would you do to keep it but make it more challenging to acquire?
+2 coppers.
I also disable tech brokering. Works nicely.
Since one can disable tech trading for their games, I fail to see the reason to take it away from folks like myself who like to trade techs.
You play the game your way, I'll play it mine.
I vote to not get rid of tech trading. Instead let's have it where multiple factions can research the same tech.
How about no. I like tech trading, and plus its only way to get super powerful ships. Screw that e-tournament stuff. Such things bore me.
The compromise would be to allow tech brokering (for the sake of the AI) but willingly abstain for trading yourself (as a personal handicap).
I vote a big NO!! one already has the issue to disable tech trading and brokering if you wish. If you don't want it than disable it.
I also enjoy tech trading.
Disable it in your game:
and make custom factions with research priorities as high as possible. The build in races have their own personalities so maybe they don't prioritise techs.
I say no. I like the option to trade tech. If you don't, you can easily disable it at game start.
I would like to see the AI become a little smarter about trading so they arent so easy to exploit. There are many ways to do this. For example, if the AI has only a little cash, like say 500, it should be very stingy about offering cash for techs because this will leave it crippled. On the other hand, if the AI is awash in cash, it should be happy to trade cash for techs. If I am about to go to war with an Ai that has 500, I can trade it a useless diplomacy tech (it wont influence me!) for say 485 credits. There are many things similar things that could be done.
I understand your points and how disabling tech trade does not address all of your issues. I fully expect the AI to get smarter and smarter over time, and more difficult to exploit. That is the strategy Stardock uses for AI development. If the purpose of your proposal is to make up for AI deficiencies, I would prefer to take the more patient approach and let the devs keep working on the AI instead of redesigning the game and the 4X genre. As many people point out, tech trading is a source of much fun. Making it also more of a challenge will make it even more fun for many people.
No No ...a thousand times Nooooooo !!
Completely agree with OP on tech trading.
It's time consuming, creates tons of micromanagement and it ultimately becomes mind numbingly boring and on top of that the AI simply can't cope with it.
GC3 has 300+ techs and lacks a good UI to make trading easier though with that many it would always involve tons of micromanagement.Some previous posters have suggested disabling tech brokering or turning off tech trading. Although that alleviates issues with micromanagement a tiny bit it does very little to address how easy it is to exploit the AI. The whole existing bartering system is a get rich/get smart quick guarantee. There's no skill involved just lots of the players time.
Stardock may be innovative when it comes to game architecture but actual games features they seem stuck in the past, many other 4X game developers are abandoning these features.
People would have said that about Firaxis's Civilizations series once... although not everyone likes the changes since Civ 4 I haven't heard many complain about the lack of tech trading. I'd be surprised if people want it back in Civ 6.
Some posters have mentioned the AI getting smarter in future updates, I think you're massively overestimating Stardock's ability to balance this system and how much time/money they have to do it. They weren't able to do it in GC2 and GC3 has probably gone backwards not forwards in this area.I'd hope that Stardock gut a lot/all of the bartering system, perhaps roll tech trading into an espionage system, resources trade into the freighters mechanic and do something innovative with treaties. They could do a lot better than this!!! I don't understand peoples attachment to something that plainly works so poorly... imo...
Hell no. Why do you want to restrict others´ game, when you can turn it off for yourself?
What needs to be improved, however, is the diplomacy AI. Sometimes, it feels too exploitative, even on higher difficulties.
I like Fallen Enchantress tech trading mechanic. You trade reserach points of particular branch and some techs become cheaper (less turns to have them).
4x A.I's cannot get a strategic mind like a human so it just becomes something that allows the player to manipulate the game heavily in his favour this is why most 4x games are having a different methods.I like in the EU games that neighbors get a tech bonus from having higher tech races next door.I also liked SOTS joint research projects.
I would set tech trading to need an alliance and only allow a give tech option for non allied races.
Okay, like others have argued the point, which still isn't answered here or shot down completely. Why would you restrict one players game, when the option already exists at the start of the game to turn off both tech trading and tech brokering?
Simply put if you don't want to play with tech trading on, you as a player already have the option to disable tech trading before you even start the game. Simply put Stardock already has given you this option already in the game therefore the OP's post is already answered. Tech trading is gone if you choose to make it gone.
So again why would you take it away from other player who choose not to play the game the same way you play the game? Last time I checked no one of us is the same. What you like to do in your game is not the same way I play my games and how I play the game is not the same as another plays the game. Now some of our play types and even game settings may be similar but, with a game that thrives on sandbox and playing the game the way you want, removing options from the game for a player to customize their game here reduces and narrows and ultimately makes the sandbox smaller.
Ultimately don't take things away from one person, just because you're too narrow minded to see why anyone would want to play that way. I guarantee all the people at Stardock don't all play the same and maybe don't agree with all the options but, they are there to allow each player to get the most of the game.
Tech trading can already be disabled. Disable it if you don't want it, problem solved.
One of my favorite aspects of the series has always been the ability to give a minor race tech so they stand a chance, or can assist you. If tech trading goes, please replace this with the ability to offer a treaty to a minor race so they can be 'protected' by your empire by still allowing their independence or subjugated for the evil races, to still allow them their slave race options.
That aside. If removed entirely then you are buffing research orientated races, by disallowing the others a way to catch up, so in turn you'd need to nerf some of the bonus options 'clever' and research victory conditions.
I play Civ 5, a lot. Civ is my other addiction. The lack of tech trading is one of my least favorite features of that game.
We will see where Stardock gets with the AI. If computers can play Go, they can manage something simple like GalCiv.
It's not about taking something away from people it's about having a system that works that people find enjoyable to play and although you and others may like the status quo and like certain aspects of the existing system a lot of people don't.
If you read my post I mentioned the entire bartering system not just tech trading, you can't turn off the entire thing. The opening post is about excessive exploitation of the AI and its causes (in this case tech-trading) as much as anything.
There's always someone who seems to freak out like a child who perceives their favorite toy is being taken away in these threads, same happened with the wheel. Is anyone here seriously claiming GC3's barter/diplomacy system is the pinnacle of gaming and that it can't be improved?
Is this topic so taboo you're not willing for it to even be discussed... that's the epitome of narrow-mindedness.
I'm sure there are many others.
Personally I enjoy having technology trading in a 4X game. However, this topic is always going to be one where different people have different preferences and so I support the options approach.
The problem then is, if the mechanic is available in the game, it should work well and it shouldn't be possible to exploit it to a ridiculous degree, which is the current situation.
A much higher pre-requisite before tech trading is allowed would help, to an extent. An Alliance as proposed by Ashbery is in the Age of War (i.e. not too early and not too late) and requires good relations. I can see some may consider this a little late but certainly Free Trade Agreements as a minimum. Either way though, Alliances or Free Trade Agreements happen so quickly it wouldn't really have a huge effect on reducing excessive exploitation.
Probably more important would be for Diplomacy generally to have a capping system. A good example is Endless Legend via their version of influence, which limits the volume of interactions possible. You can't get the kitchen sink from the AI but you can trade on a fairly routine basis. Certain research/buildings helped perform additional interactions by increasing the available influence. Early game, it should be fairly limited what you can do, with options to increase the volume in interactions as the game progresses, without getting out of control in the late game.
For the good of the game I really wish we had another (this time major) diplomacy update on the roadmap.
Go is incredibly simple compared to Gal Civ, are you serious???
Yep, there are others. But that's troll bait for a different forum.
No, I am not serious. I seldom am completely serious, I just sound preachy. Also, I usually have points in my jests. In this case: I am impressed at what has been done with Go. The progress has beaten all expectations. I know it is not the same sort of project, but it gives me hope that GalCiv AI progress may end up surprising folk, even me. Software development of all sorts has done a lot of surprising things, things we then take for granted a week later.
In the meantime, we'll see what happens.
By the way, I actually registered to YouTube so I could subscribe to your channel. That is pretty amazing for a social-phobe like me. You do good Let's Plays. I like the Terran Resurgence! I could never play that! I use them in my random list of opponents. The object is for them to become fodder for some aggressive AI to take. So far, that hasn't happened yet, but it's only been one game.
I think freeciv requires an embassy to trade techs. Limiting the number of trades in a turn. Also it never made sense to be able to trade with someone who was angry or hostile towards you. I'm in support of combined research not as a replacement. You could make it a tech. Simply calculating smarter trade. Still say keep tech trades.
Can be hard to tell in writing if someone is saying something in jest or sarcastically unless you really know them or they make it obvious. Quotes "" and winks can help
I think you're the first person who's ever said to me they registered to YouTube to subscribe to my channel, thank you I'm honored. You may be aware that LP just wrapped up last vid was yesterday, should be a Mercenaries LP pretty soon after it's released as well.
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