Ok forget all these suck asses wooing the devs with "wow I love all the changes great ideas" blah blah blah. I'm a founder and I'm glad of it. I spent good American money on this game. I love it already.
But I will require full strategic zoom. It's in every large scale RTS. The mini-map sucks. You steal Sup Com's maps, now it's time to steal some moar ideas, mainly nukes, monkeylords and FULL STRATEGIC ZOOM.
You need to do this.. like now devs. NOW. YOU HEAR ME. Like the black guys who said "givus us the free" in Amistad, I'm saying "givus us the ZOOM".
Thank you.
Also...as with some of the others, I have no clue what "click to zoom" means. The way it was used it sounded like click to zoom out which doesn't make any sense to me. If you're talking about click from strategic view to zoom into an area/battle on the map, that does make sense. EDIT: Here's a bunch of modern day military symbology. Doesn't need to be nearly this complicated, but basic differentiation between "artillery vs tank vs fighter vs bomber" is very useful http://axisandallies.wikia.com/wiki/Military_Symbols
So for me, "Click to zoom" incorporated in a map, would mean if we hover over a region, we can click on that region and immediately zoom in and be working on that region. Similar to clicking on the mini-map right now to jump across the map quickly.
Ah, so it's click from Strategic View to zoom in. That makes sense. I'm used to SupCom where you hold the pointer over where you want and use the scroll wheel to zoom in. Either way seems quite workable to me.
to me the former is superior by design. inherently superior even. there's just nothing about the latter that isn't a slight downgrade.YES, YES "Slight". I KNOW but why downgrade at all?
Mostly what I'm used to, that's all. Although the difference is probably in that SupCom let's you select and command units from Strategic View. For AS it sounds like the Devs don't want that, which makes sense. Or maybe a click/click-drag? Click to zoom to default zoom, click-drag to define the exact area to zoom to?
Well here's the thing...you can, right now, click on the strategic map and the main window goes to that location. Just tried it. No, it doesn't change zoom level, but I wouldn't want it to. So whatever minidump was saying about, who knows.
I feel like it'd make sense in this view (and if this is how it looked/worked) for the player to be able to order metaunits around from a fairly high level of zoom. They represent strategic elements, and being forced to command them from up-close doesn't really make much sense (nor is it intuitive, I think). However this means nothing if it's a totally different way to how it'll all function
I think we have that. The situational map we are looking at is pretty mcuh what Drizzt has up there.
I'm also a fan of the full strategic zoom, and want to add my voice to have the game include some type of this feature. Perhaps allow the full map on a 2nd monitor, both in windowed mode? This is something FA only allowed full screen, and the reason I rarely use it, but if we could use 2 monitors, one for the game, and one for a full map view, both windowed, I think it would really help.
Comments welcome!
If we had the ability to use a 2nd monitor, for the sole purpose of viewing a strategic map full time, that would rock! Even a $50 USB monitor would rock.
*EDIT* Even better than a $50 USB Monitor. How about an Android/IOS app that would allow our tablets to be the strategic map, and clicking on it would shift our in-game focus to the new region?
CTRL+1 while I have a selected troop of units. From then on I push 1 when I was zoomed out to tell them to do "x". Also hotkeys for commands, structures helps.
Would a window of commands help when only zoomed fully out? Example: Zoom out fully, push a button to expand a window to display commands, but only opens when zoomed fully out? Just tossing some ideas out there.
I like use of the Troop Groups to be able to be sent about, having a dedicated set of commands, for the Full Zoom Out would be beneficial, but I think it should be perhaps something we can click on the UI to have it drop down, but not always visible.
OR...have the list of commands be an optional part of the UI that can be turned off in options for those of us that have them memorized.
What kind of buttons are we talking about? Are we thinking, select scout - explore non-captured regions; or, select engineer - build metal extractors in controlled regions; or, have team "x" explore until it finds the enemy and engage, or, detect and return?
the thread title caught my eye, it was one of the suggestions i was going to post. in total annihilation i was used to moving around the battle by quickly/easily moving out and back in again...scrolling was more tedious...and btw...it'd still be nice to have scrolling across the field by moving the mouse to the sides. feeling comfortable in the world is really key to enjoying the game. (i was surprised it wasn't included because i figured it was the the next iteration of total A..(and was hoping it wasn't like supreme commander 2..i liked supreme commander 1 though )
viewing's not going to help us much. :/ what we need is the ability to issue orders in a global and efficient manner.
That won't be happening, at least at any sort of micro level (i.e. ordering individual units). I could see control groups/armies be able to be given general geographical orders.
The zoom level as shown in the benchmark demo in the game would be nice, seems to zoom much further out than the game currently does, although i've only played briefly since the last update....
How the HELL do you CLOSE the strategic map? First game today...opened the map. COULD NOT CLOSE IT AGAIN!!!! No controls in the map, not allowed to click-behind, not responding to keys. NO OBVIOUS QUEUES IN THE UIX TO PERFORM A VERY NECESSARY INTERACTION.
ESC = Nope...this is the STANDARD for dismissing a window in UIX, why not just follow it? FOLLOW THE FREAKING UNIVERSAL STANDARDS!! NO ONE (SLAM THE UIX GUY'S HEAD HERE) WANTS "CREATIVE" UIX INTERACTION!!!!!!!!!!!
CONTROLS? Not listed or not apparent to first-time user. Oh and CONTROLS not available from the main menu...you can imagine I'm thinking of refunding on Steam before I build my first unit.
Feedback from first time player...WHAT A DISASTER OF A UIX DECISION! The map is not taking advantage of my full resolution, does not allow click behind, does not dismiss on standard key strokes / mouse clicks / really belongs in the standard mini-map area. My company designs and implements Enterprise software, if your need UIX help.
Guys: More feedback. Just played Sorcerer king. Suffers from same poor user interaction planning, really cool game hampered tremendously by poor UIX / user interaction decisions. Please please please fix your UIX design team leadership, there's consistent issues here between your products.
See? ONE SIMPLE THING leaves a VERY BAD IMPRESSION on a new player. I HAD TO QUIT THE GAME TO DISMISS A WINDOW!!!!!!!!!!!
Very angry purchaser...TWO major UIX flaws found in 2 minutes.
Update...ohGOD it's worse...starting a new game starts with the strategic map up. THE GAME IS LITERALLY UNPLAYABLE NOW. THis is NOT a beta, it's pre-Alpha. I'd never let my coders release UIX in this state.
Tried pressing space bar?
You can close it by clicking on the name "Strategic map" or whatever it is called in the top right corner. Worked for me anyway. When the space bar didn't work it is the first thing I tried, took all of 5 seconds. If you want to be taken seriously all of your shouting and ranting isn't doing you any favours.
Im 100% Full Zoom if we think it has just a tool to went faster to any place and not to play with it .
Soon or later we will be able to test and go crasy with zoom has far has you can, i already test it and it works very well ,its mush more fun and easy to play.
All is possible just dont confuse, when we say full zoom to Ashes or at least mush more then what we have now its just a tool to make your clicks easy ...its not to play with full zoom.
The quality game start be good every new patch,and now is the time to push a bit more for this game and start think more in other options that not only make unit spam.
We need give the option to players that dont win the field like the enemy to have other defence options, or in games we will see a lot players just give up.
This week i play with 3 players they just give up because they havent spam enouth and i kind understand them, but that must change at very least we showld have a good defence line setup to ashes.
There´s where Full Zoom went, to be mush more easy to all understant what the field have with 1 click .
I Pressed EVERY button on the keyboard. Restarting the game 3 times (back to windows and full restart) finally made the strategic screen disappear. Who on EARTH uses space bars to dismiss dialogs? NO USER INTERFACE WORKS THIS WAY!!!! To make matters worse NO EXPLANATION of this mechanism (either in game or in the online walk-through) is present. IF you decide to deviate from known standards, please use something reasonable to show the user what to do.
Keyboard layout is AWFUL!!! Scrolling with arrow keys? Is this the 1990's? I'm right handed (like most folks) so...
Look at your keyboard. Now hold the mouse in right hand. Now REACH ACCROSS YOUR KEYBOARD WITH YOUR LEFT HAND TO SCROLL THE MAP or TAKE YOUR HAND OFF THE MAIN UIX INTERACTION TOOL to scroll. Look..this was resolved ages ago: AWSD = scrolling / keyboard moment. EVERY game uses this. Stick to making your UIX soild using solid UIX principles. Screwing around with UIX and controls doesn't make you "innovative" it detracts from your player's experience.
Scrolling raises you zoom level depending on Terrain, uncomfortable visual experience, drawing your eye away from unit. Fix your z-axis instead of trying to "show off" a technically advanced but UIX deficient interaction. The jumping up and down breaks eye contact SOMEONE study how eyes / brains render things so you understand this point.
The UIX right now is horrible. NEW PLAYERS SHOULD NOT HAVE TO THINK ABOUT SIMPLE UIX INTERACTIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!! <--- PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD UIX TEAM READ THIS.
Let's talk about how units are designed. Zoom out. It's almost impossible (even on my 4 k monitor) to quickly distinguish unit types at even a modest zoom. The designs are too similar. A destroyer looks very much like a cruiser from distance (where you need to work due to scaling). Your units need to be distinctly shaped / colored / animated at a reasonable distance for things to work well. Look at other RTS's....the units have VERY distinct features (especially around the perimeter) to make them stand out from one-another. This is a critical part of UIX design and right now it's fatally flawed.
Now this is beta so I'm not screaming about it BUT the experience I've had with Stardock's other recent releases tells me someone has taken over UIX who is not really thinking about things from a usability standpoint. UIX is a big weakness in Sins of a Solar Empire (Still one of my favorite RTS games) but in that game the UIX fights you, ESPECIALLY that horrible empire tree and cinematic tracking.
WHO IS IN CHARGE OF UIX AT STARDOCK? The game itself plays reasonably well when I can get the UIX / controls out of my way. Same problem with Sorcerer King Your dedication to threading THE UIX (Amazingly bad decision) absolutely destroyed that game's potential...SK could have been one of my absolutely favorite games but UIX screwed it up.
You UIX *DESIGN* needs an overhaul from top to bottom. So far, it plays like a mediocre RTS. It has the potential (based on pacing / game-feel) to be something special like T.A.
Update: I launched the game an opened strategic view to test the "Pressed spacebar" suggestions. No dice. Indeed the screen did weird things once I did press the space bar multiple times.
I'm sticking to my guns here: UIX needs a complete re-working. You wanna defend this by attacking my anger at paying $38.00 for a UIX design (not graphics here folks, the DESIGN / WORKFLOW) one of my junior coders wouldn't dare present to me even in an alpha? So be it. I'm pissed to see this poor quality design this far into your game.
How about the fact I've been coding for 35+ years and this kind of waste of talent INFURIERATES me. I've had it with "cool" but "unusable" UIX designs.
Your engine looks solid guys, your AI performs reasonably for an early beta. Frame rates and rendering seem spiffy. You're obviously spreading work across cores in a nice way. The music is acceptable and I expect sound effects will be upgraded.
But...
Your UIX is utter trash. Someone needs to say it now so your team at least gets a chance to exit the internal feedback loop your obviously in. Several consecutive products have suffered from the same UIX weaknesses. This one is no different.
Agree with a lot of what you're saying rdytmire, except the WASD camera control stuff. There really aren't many RTS games that use WASD to control the camera, due to the importance of building/control hotkeys. This game seems to use right-click-hold as the primary method of panning the camera, and it seems fine to me along with edge scrolling, zoom-out-zoom-in, or strategic map (space) movement. Nothing crazy different from the likes of SupCom here.
My main (and really only serious) complaint at the moment is unit clarity. Not being able to tell the difference between units without mousing over them is made worse by mousing-over not working when the unit is in an army. I'm sure with experience I'd start to distinguish different units easier, but their differences are definitely too subtle.
Every major successful RTS has placed great emphasis on having each unit being immediately recoognizable. I'm slightly shocked that Frogboy says
while also being seemingly ok with the current unit silhouettes. Guys, I admire your conviction on avoiding the icon-sprawl, but you need to go above and beyond with unit design if you want to make it work. Symbols let the players see at a glance exactly what's going on. Take them away, and the graphics need to convey the same information if you want a successful game.
A particularly painful point is with the current metal/rad extractors. Fucking hell are these hard to see. This is actually the main thing turning me off the game right now - with the effectiveness of raiding extractors (they die easy), it's just a huge pain going around checking they're all intact. I have to mouse over each node to be sure.
Here's a simple idea: add icons to the strategic view at each node to show a)how many of each resources there is, and b)whether they are being extracted. Keep it simple, like having the number of each be greyed if it's not being extracted, coloured/bold if it is. I just want to be able to hit space every now and then and see straight away if I'm missing out on resource income, without having to poke around for ages checking.
It's that stuff that's missing right now. Strategic clarity. And honestly guys, with a game like this that is so heavily focused on macro, these things that seem somewhat overlooked are make-or-break.
+1 This is a good idea and would give more utility to using the strategic map.
Totally agree with Cerzi, especially about extractors, there needs to be different/bigger/visually more prominent 3D model. I have hard time distinguishing between empty and populated resource node too.
Gotta slightly disagree with you here. You are right: In the big scale of the history of RTS's there aren't many RTS games that have WASD. However if you look within these 5 years (and even a little before) you will see that there are actually quite a few RTS games that are now using WASD. This is because it is much more seamless in moving the camera then the arrow keys. It doesn't effect building hotkeys all to much either; Z,X,C come into play which are just as easy and efficient to use, but require people to actually take time to become accustomed to the change.
Everything else in your post thought I agree with 100%.
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