Do I have a problem?
About Thalan hives, the Tech "Helpful hives" specialization :
How it works? I thought it changes Hives +1 adj. bonus to every type of building to +2. But it wasn't the case. So it's bugged or gives bonys to something else?
The Gaia Vortex is certainly nice and powerful though i'd say that it's no worse than a number of other player wonders. If the wiki is right the Iridium store is much nastier since you can have one per colony and it provides a global boost.
Altarian Approval buildings are only decent with the current LEP/Approval system. They dont give % modifiers, they give flat modifiers, which is the best thing to combat LEP. The Drathian temple gives +9 flat approval, and +2 Adjacency. Its colony unique, but you may not need more than 1 anyways. If so, accompany it with as many communion shrines as you want, each giving +7. However, if they do end up changing the LEP/Approval math so the +% modifiers are attributed before the LEP Malus, then Altarian Approval buildings get weaker. Terrans have megaresort, which gives +25% approval. that plus 1 stadium will rock (or wont even need it if you already have virtual world and the entertainment capital somewhere else in your empire).
I just looked at Drengin, and the slave pit gives +6 and the Hunting grounds gives +12? WTF?!?!? +12 Approval?!?!?
Altarians arent really an influence race Yes, they get some bonus influence as part of a racial trait, but not much in regards to influence specific techs, except some of their racial buildings supply approval adj bonus as well. Nevertheless, screw influence buildings, just build factories and use culture fest. Its about twice as efficient for the final output. Yes, culture buildings generate influence for free, but still, as of 1.1 with the new pop/production ratios, you can use projects with manufacturing, and be about as efficient as a pure dedicated world, but, with the flexibility to change in a single turn.
There is an entire ideology line in benevolent which gives great approval bonuses, but thats ideology, not tech. For Altarian supposedly being the race of harmony and research, they kinda blow.....badly.
I took a look at the other races too.
Altarians are actively gimped - and severely so.
Terrans, Krynn, Drengin and Iridium really all have roughly the same tech tree, with only slight differences.
Yor tree and mechanics are unique
Iconian and Thalan trees are really powerful comparatively to the other races, even though their mechanics are the same
I rarely say this about the devs, but it just looks like they got lazy or forgot to polish this before release. The level of individuality in each tree varies -thalans, yor, iconian and altarian trees all have some sort of unique flavour and tech options - even if the latter race is gimped by them!
on the other hand, other than unique tech names, the Drengin krynn iridium and terrain trees are basically identical
I guess my point was that from an outsiders perspective, it looks like the devs mostly forgot about 4 races, or got so caught up in coming up with cool tech names they forgot to provide diversity in other ways.
And perhaps Frogboy just doesn't like the Altarians!
@dansiegel30: I suggest double checking your numbers, The communion shrine is better than the stadium, sure. But that's a 3 steps further up the research tree. For a long time your actually giving up morale compared to other races to get the influence adjacency modifier. The truth is that yes Altairan's morale building main benefits ARE influenced based compared to everyone else, not approval.
I mean it doesn't help that approval is utterly irrelevant, getting 100% is trivial i find, and even if it was hard, the difference is small. I'm also far from convinced that the benefit once you get the tech would be worth it even if you did routinely need the approval. The difference in raw is too small, and if you have so many percentages stacked up that the raw cna become majorly useful then your not going to need approval buildings anyway.
The Thalan tech tree sucked the power out of the altarian tech tree, that's what happened!
In truth, aside from various bugs I think they just conceptually differentiated the tech trees but did not modify them based on competitive balance. That wasn't the priority during beta and since it's a sandbox game, the imbalance is permissible. But yea, it's basically another difficulty slider with Thalan tech being easy mode, iconian/yor being medium, everyone else being hard, and altarian being suicidal.
Your math on the hive is incorrect. There are 4 factors that matter.
1.) Pop of planet = P
2.) Base bonus per factory (tech level) = F%
3.) Average adjacency bonus per factory and hive =A%
4.) Number of factories on the planet = F#
The difference in absolute production hive - extra factory is:
(P+5+4)×(1+A%)×(1+(F%+A%)×F#)
-
(P+5)×(1+(F%+A%)×(F#+1)
You can show mathematically that the average adjacency bonus benefits the hive scenario as it increases. You can also show this for the number of factories already on the planet. The more that exist, the less the relative boost from another factory compared to a hive.
The only factors that benefit the factory scenario as they increase are the base factory bonus rate and the base population. At a factory rate of 50% the break even points are as follows (note this also assumes a 0 average adjacency bonus which is pretty much impossible):
Existing Factories - Break Even Pop
0 - 3
1 - 7
2 - 11
3 - 15
4 - 19
5 - 23
6 - 27
This should obviously make sense since the hive contribution is fixed per existing factory (4×0.5) while the extra factory contribution scales with pop. The fixed step per factory is 2 and the scaling portion per pop is 0.5 so 4 pop to break even...you just push the specific break even point along.
IF you do the same calculation but with an average adjacency bonus, however, everything changes. If we assume just a 15% adjacency bonus...which is pretty easy to gaurantee...these are the results for the same situation.
0 - 4.something
1 - 13.something
2 - 29.something
3 - 60.something
4 - 145.something
It should be obvious that this keeps getting worse and worse. The point here is that the adjacency bonus on the hive also affecting raw production is a huge multiplier. We aren't even discussing obvious other points such as:
1.) Getting higher tech factories costs research and build time
2.) Factories only help production whereas the hive contributes towards whatever you want the planet to specialize in
3.) The hive also provides adjacency bonusses to anything else it is next to like farms etc.
The importance of this building should not be underplayed. It is ALWAYS use full and even MORE useful at the critical early stages of the game. It will virtually double the speed at which you get your early research planets covered in laboratories and ready to roll. And all early game advantages end up yielding compound benefits over time.
Goatmeal: I can do basic math, my workings are correct. I can lead you through my spreadsheet and give it to you if you want. But all it does in simple terms is quantify the base production multiplier and raw production without Hive/Factory, then separately work out the final outputs one with Hive, once with Factory with Adjacency accounted for.
I mean the equation I listed is pretty straight forward and if I do the various derivatives I see what changes with respect to which variables. I just don't see how the effect lines up with what you say.
If you don't mind go ahead and post your spreadsheet as I'd like to see it.
Sure i'll lead you through each part though first with a screenshot below.
A2 = to the bonus raw production provided by the hive. It is used by E column only.
B2 = to the percentage bonus to production of the world with Hive rendered as a decimal. The value that's in there now is equal to a 1,000 percent bonus.
C2 = to the extra percentage increase provided by adding another factory, again as a decimal. The value given assumes a max tech factory, (base 100%), minus the difference in adjacency between a mother hive and at the Factory, (Both factories and Hives gain 5% manufacturing per adjacency level, Mother Hive provides an extra level to all affected sources. Max of 6 so a max of 30% lost adjacency bonus which means the true change in percentage is plus 70% or 0.7 in decimal.
D column is total pop dedicated to production.
E column is: = (raw + pop) x Percentage Bonus of world, or for E2 is: D2+$A$2)*$B$2
F column is: = Pop x (Percentage Bonus of World + Extra Percentage Bonus), or for F2 is: D2)*($B$2+$C$2)
G and H Columns are hopefully obvious.
I will not before posting the screenshot one earlier number was off, it's 52 not 58 pop as break even point, i screwed up by setting C2 as = to 0.75 not 0.7 first time.
Screenshot:
[url=http://postimg.org/image/3uhjoosul/][/url]
Link to spreadsheet download:
http://www.filedropper.com/galacciviiihivesvsfactories
Thank you for sharing your excel sheet. I'm not trying to be obnoxious I was just curious about the difference in results.
The math you did seems right but I think your assumption on the way the buildings work isn't completely correct.
In your setup you are using a 70% difference for the next factory as opposed to a hive. From my understanding this is due to a factory surrounded by 6 others giving 100% base + 6 bonus to other + 6 bonus to itself. From this you subtract the mother hive giving 0% base + 12 bonus to others + 6 bonus to itself.
The problem here is you are treating the hive adjacency bonus to itself as another %manufacturing bonus but it is not. It is % total manufacturing and affects the whole raw production of the planet before you apply the whole manufacturing bonus (which you set at 1000%).
Basically the hive is +4 raw AND +(pop+4+capital(5)) times its adjacency bonus raw, Then you apply the 1000% bonus.
Try out a quick game as Thalan and simply build a hive and two factories next to it. Then look at the raw production listed when you put it to 100% building and you'll see there is a missing factor. That factor is the actual adjacency bonus of the hive affecting the raw production.
Just been in and checked, Adjacency benefits are additive, not multiplicative, pulled out my calculator and cross checked the figures. I didn;t do it with hives specifically but since they use the same bonus system it should work regardless of adjacency source.
Also decided to sit down and mod the Altairian tech tree, see if i can't morph it into something useful. Will let you know when i'm done tinkering.
The adjacency benefit for the hive building itself (the effect of others on it, not its effect on others) applies to the raw production of a world before other manufacturing bonusses. It is, in fact, multiplicative and not additive. It is one of the few bonusses that work in this fashion. In fact when you look at the tool tip for manufacturing of a planet the hive will not even appear listed. You will see "X% from factories" and whatever else is on the planet but see nothing for the hive. This is because it's bonus is already built into the raw production number.
I'll post this screenshot of a game that took me 5 minutes to set up and test.
This is a race with no abilities other than patriotic (so that starting morale is exactly 50%) and intuitive so that hives are available immediately.
The planet has exactly 10 pop, is the capital of the empire, and has no bonuses of any type.
A capital building is worth 5 raw production. A civilization capital is worth 5 raw production. The 10 pop is worth 10.5 raw production. A hive is worth 4 raw production.
If you'll notice, the "Base Manufacturing" is not equal to 5+5+10.5+4=24.5
It is, in fact, equal to 24.5 * 1.05 = 25.725 where the 1.05 is the 5% "total manufacturing" bonus from having the hive with 1 adjacency bonus.
You'll also note that the only other percentage listed is 30% from the "basic factory". This is a 25% basic factory with 1 adjacency bonus. The hive's 5% is clearly not listed here or added to the factory bonus.
The hive adjacency bonus counts as a multiplier to raw production before you apply the general manufacturing bonus. It is very much multiplicative, and that is where it's power lies.
If it was the way you claim the manufacturing of the planet would be (5+5+4+10.5)*1.35=33.075 which it most clearly is not.
At level 1 with 1 basic factory this difference doesn't amount to much but when you have multiple adjacency bonuses on the hive and multiple factories, the difference becomes very large.
Initial setup with no buildings. Production is equal to the expected 20.5
http://s27.postimg.org/56imdthc3/2015_06_28_00001.jpg
Setup with just 1 hive and 1 factory.
http://s2.postimg.org/d6xu5joe1/2015_06_28_00002.jpg
Example with 4 factories. The production is now substantially more than just 24.5 * 2.7 = 66.15
http://s23.postimg.org/gmvs48q23/2015_06_28_00003.jpg
Huhy, oookay, just went fiole diving and the hive does use a different setup to factories et al. I suspect it's a bug though. What i think happened is that in an earlier build the adjacency benefit was +raw production, when they changed it to a multiplier they forgot to change one of the values. And given you can get a 20 point adjacency, (probably 22 at a push), that's unbeatable. Death furnace shares the same bug on both it's base and adjacency benefits.
I think it's deliberate on both tbh - Death Furnaces is an ideological wonder, and so should be hugely beneficial since you only get to build one in the whole empire, while hives are colony-uniques and so need to be pretty good too.
The problem is simply that the Hive base-building (and it's upgrade) are insanely overpowered for their price. Hives are twice as powerful as a durantium refinery, but cost 1/5th of the manufacturing to build, 1/4 the maintenance to own, and need no resources to set up.
It's basically 4 free population who need no food or approval - for 30 manu. For comparison, the Yor need to spend 121 manu to build a two units of POP who then buildings to support them. That suggests a more sensible cost for the hive is around 300 manu - ten times it's present cost. Even if it's output was nerfed into the ground, there's simply no way a hive should cost 30 manu.
@Naselus: Even if you with a really basic adjacency benefit will provide that world with a 60% increase in total manufacturing output purely based on adjacency. The deat furnace is even worse, site it on a major production world and you can provide a massive 3.5 times multiplier to total production from it.
Total production is:
(raw + flat bonuses) x manufacturing bonus x production bonus
Everything but hives and death furnaces is a manufacturing bonus. They're production bonuses so it multiples not just the raw production, but the manufacturing bonuses.
To give you an idea. 40 pop world, and we'll ignore flat bonuses from hives and colony capitals/civ capitals:
With a max adjacency benefit with a top tech factory at the middle the base raw is 40 and manufacturing bonus of 1150% is: 460
The same with the Central factory replaced by a Hive is: 765.4
The same with a death Furnace is: 1332.8
Does that sound remotely balanced against the alternatives in other ideologies?
I havent played Thalan yet, but does indeed sound interesting as its race specific techs seem to be quite useful compared to other races. Nevertheless, after looking at the improvementdefs.xml file (I hate that tooltip doesnt have this info), the hive's +5% to colony raw production per level seems to be a bit INSANE.
However, if you want to compare a hive with a proper traditional manufacturing building, you need to use a power plant (namely fusion or quantum), which will give much larger adjacent bonuses than a factory, +3 or +5 to each adj factory. As well, a quantum plant ANYWHERE is a no brainer, as its central bonus(100%) is even higher than an industrial sector (75%).
(all assumptions begin with hive/plant being surrounded by 6 +1 adj bonus factories) Even with a powerplant, yeah, hive seems to top even a quantum plant because of that +30% raw production (level 6 hive). That instantly trumps the huge adj bonus you get even from an age of ascension quantum power plant. Put a quantum power plant next to a hive and replace a factory, and damn, level 10 (+50% raw production).
Yeah, Death Furnace is insane, not as much as Gia Vortex, but both are player unique, not colony unique. Hive vs Power Plant should be the appropriate comparison.
Guess we'll have to wait for the Hive Nerf. That adj bonus needs to be tamed quite a bit.
Mother Hives is colony unique, not player unique? Mother F#$%!!!!!
Yeah and both beat the tar out of any other player uniques by well, a hell of a lot, and the equivalent buildings for the other ideologies do not have such an effect.
Let's step into the realm of pure absurdity for a second here. I was curious to see just what kind of pretty numbers I could get and fired up a new test game to see.
I think that works! Military production is a smidge over 40k at 100%.
Total production is: (raw + flat bonuses) x manufacturing bonus x production bonus Everything but hives and death furnaces is a manufacturing bonus. They're production bonuses so it multiples not just the raw production, but the manufacturing bonuses. To give you an idea. 40 pop world, and we'll ignore flat bonuses from hives and colony capitals/civ capitals: With a max adjacency benefit with a top tech factory at the middle the base raw is 40 and manufacturing bonus of 1150% is: 460 The same with the Central factory replaced by a Hive is: 765.4 The same with a death Furnace is: 1332.8 Does that sound remotely balanced against the alternatives in other ideologies?
You missed the Gaia Vortex out; it also gives a productionpoint adjacency bonus (in addition to yet another +4 production points Empire-wide). And I was already well aware of how the maths works, without you needing to recycle the conversation you literally just had where Goatmeal had to repeatedly explain the difference between PP and manufacturing.
The big point here is that the DF is a single planet only. It is a player-unique wonder. You only get 1, and it costs 202 manu to make. It SHOULD convert the planet it's build on into a powerhouse. Many other player-unique wonders provide faction-wide bonuses (the Benevolent alternative, for instance gives +100% influence to every planet). Making one planet super-powerful is the kind of thing I expect player-uniques to do. I actually would say that yes, the huge increase to the productivity of one planet is fairly equally balanced to the Bene's faction-wide mega-influence wonder, since building the bene wonder can comfortably lead to the player taking over a couple of dozen worlds in five turns without doing anything else.
But the Thalan hive is not a wonder. It's just a colony-unique building, like a powerplant. Rather than making ONE colony very, very productive, you can make ALL your colonies very, very productive. The mother-hive gives 8 PP in addition to it's adjacency; and you can build one per planet. It's essentially the same price and tech level as a solar powerplant. That I do feel is very unbalanced.
Yeah its beyond a joke.
I'm sure devs will nerf it soon enough.
Which is also totally useless because you can only produce 1 ship per turn.
Specialization past a certain point is actually pointless.
There are many great features available to you once you register, including:
Sign in or Create Account
