It's the way the LEP system works. The problem is LEP takes morale points away from the base pool.
So if you have +20 morale on your planets from starbase and buildings, but have 100 planets, your morale will be exactly ZERO even if you have +600% morale boost, because
0*6=0.
[EDIT: Wait a second. Is this right? I wouldn't know because I'm good at math and so I ALWAYS take Patriotic or Malevolence level 2 and so I don't pay attention).
Furthermore, if you didn't figure this out BEFORE starting a game on insane, you're doomed. Even worse, you won't realize how doomed you are until 30 hours into the game.
On almost any map Gigantic or Larger with abundant habitable planets and standard number of AI, Patriotic is a must. For larger maps, with lots of AI, Malevolence Level II approval bonus from invasion is a must if you did not take Patriotic. THERE ARE NO OTHER OPTIONS IN THE LONG RUN.
... those multipliers flat stack?
Seriously
Until they nerf your favorite traits
Patriotic and Malevolence Level II simply break it. I fully see the intent of rewarding such a depressed and angry society of warmongers by taking planets, but money and power cannot fulfill happiness on its own. The mongrel are missing out on the sex, drugs, and rock and roll, art, music, sports, etc, all offered down the corner at your local 'approval' building. In all seriousness, the devs WANT approval to mean something, and have dire consequences, even for the warmongers.
Bah wasting a trait on patriotic is inefficient just use starbasses i havent built a single approval building on any planet ( except the one that generates a malevelent point every ten turns) most of my planets only use 3 of the max 12 starbases and i dont have a problem keeping my approval at 100% usually around 60+ planets
I have 139 planets
Your doing something wrong.... How many planets do you have?
For those who want it; I've made a mini-mod that removes the LEP.
Let's see how that goes when you get to 100+ planets.
Well, yes, but that still wouldn't solve the problem that on 100+ planets your morale from LEP is effectively 0.
It's really not as much of an issue as everyone makes out.
Placing 2 entertainment centres next to each other gives you a flat +6 morale, if you have these in a block with your ideology building which I almost always do, you get +10. That goes a long way to combating the LEP. By the time you have more colonies than this can combat, you should be able to upgrade to better morale buildings.
Everyone keeps talking about how adding a factory or research lab will wipe out the morale penalty but you are forgetting one thing. Morale modifies Total Production not simply your Manufacturing or Research values. This means it is multiplying your base and therefore happens before any colony modifiers you already have.
On a colony with +400% to research, the morale bonus/penalty is equivalent to changing this to +500% with high morale or +300% with low morale. The higher your colony modifiers the more of an impact it makes.
Of course, it's not always as straight forward, other things factor into the equation like tech/government level, starbases, unique buildings.
Note, that morale affects extreme worlds heavily since they already suffer -50% total production, morale can change that to between -75% or -25%.
Maybe I'm a geek but I have a spreadsheet which I have used since release that calculates different scenarios (ie adding or sacrificing a farm, morale, factory/lab) and works out which gives me the best boost. Some of you may be surprised in how many cases keeping morale at 100% is more beneficial.
Naselus, I hate to challenge your hard work but you are not factoring in the base colony production
Base Production of colony5 Colony Building + 5 Population = 10Adding Morale10 * 1.25 = 12.5
Adding Farm10 + 2 = 12
Base Production = 10
Adding Morale10 * 1.12 = 11.2
Adding Farm(10 + 2) * 0.94 = 11.28
Farm world with 3 farms and entertainment centre(10 + 6) * 1.02 = ~16.32
Farm world with 4 farms(10 + 8) * 0.92 = ~16.56
So you can see the benefit isn't so clearly in favour of farms.
Farms and morale are one of the easiest ways to modify Total Manufacturing (used to be Total Production). When you are dealing with worlds with high % modifiers to Manufacturing/Research/Wealth oftentimes increasing this base "Total Manufacturing" stat is more potent than adding another factory/lab/market.
Base Production of colony5 Colony Building + 5 Population = 10Adding Morale10 * 1.25 = 12.5Adding Farm10 + 2 = 12
Base Production = 10Adding Morale10 * 1.12 = 11.2Adding Farm(10 + 2) * 0.94 = 11.28
Farm world with 3 farms and entertainment centre(10 + 6) * 1.02 = ~16.32Farm world with 4 farms(10 + 8) * 0.92 = ~16.56So you can see the benefit isn't so clearly in favour of farms.Farms and morale are one of the easiest ways to modify Total Manufacturing (used to be Total Production). When you are dealing with worlds with high % modifiers to Manufacturing/Research/Wealth oftentimes increasing this base "Total Manufacturing" stat is more potent than adding another factory/lab/market.
Without LEP, raising morale is valid.
Well, yes and no. If you have an immense empire, LEP can become a problem as you have suggested. However, it's very situational. e.g.
Staying with Age of Expansion technologies:
You have a LEP of -10.0, technologies of +4 (supportive pop), +2 from harmony crystals, base colony gives +3. giving overall -1 morale.
A pure manufacturing colony, factoring in simple adjacency bonuses that give each building level 2:
A class 10 planet with 9 free tiles in 3 clusters of 3 tiles:9 mega factories in 3 clusters of 3 = (3 * 3 * 0.5) = 450% manufacturing bonusMorale = -1/5 = -25% Total Prod.Total production = (5 col capital + 5 pop) * 0.75 = 7.5Manufacturing = 7.5 * 5.5 = 41.25
Same planet with:6 mega factories in 2 clusters of 3 = (2 * 3 * 0.5) = 300% manufacturing bonus3 adaptive farm in 1 cluster of 3 = (3 * 4) = 12 population bonusMorale = -1/17 = -25% Total Prod.Total production = (5 + 5 + 12) * 0.75 = 16.5manufacturing = 16.5 * 4 = 66
Same planet with:3 mega factories in 1 cluster of 3 = (1 * 3 * 0.5) = 150% manufacturing bonus3 adaptive farm in 1 cluster of 3 = (3 * 4) = 12 population bonus3 stadiums in 1 cluster of 3 = (3 * 8) = 24 moraleMorale = 23/17 = +25% Total Prod.Total production = (5 + 5 + 12) * 1.25 = 27.5manufacturing = 27.5 * 2.5 = 68.75
In the example above, clearly adding 3 morale buildings is slightly superior to 3 factories. This I have found to be the case in many situations. My morale buildings are high priority for attaining adjacency bonus. It becomes even more potent the more empire wide bonuses and on higher quality worlds. Even more so again on research/wealth worlds where at least some of your production is split towards manufacturing.
Same empire later in game:
You have a LEP of -30.0, technologies of +4 (supportive pop), +2 from harmony crystals, base colony gives +3. giving overall -21 morale.
A class 19 planet with 18 free tiles in 6 clusters of 3 tiles:15 industrial sectors in 5 clusters of 3 = (5 * 3 * 0.85) = 1275% manufacturing bonus3 lossless farms in 1 cluster of 3 = (3 * 6) = 18 population bonusMorale = -21/23 = -25% Total Prod.Total production = (5 + 5 + 18) * 0.75 = 21manufacturing = 21 * 13.75 = 288.75
Same planet with:9 industrial sectors in 3 clusters of 3 = (3 * 3 * 0.85) = 765% manufacturing bonus3 lossless farms in 1 cluster of 3 = (3 * 6) = 18 population bonus6 stadiums in 2 clusters of 3 = (2 * 3 * 8) = 48 moraleMorale = 27/23 = +25% Total Prod.Total production = (5 + 5 + 18) * 1.25 = 35manufacturing = 35 * 8.65 = 302.75
Here you can see that even sacrificing six industrial buildings your production is still higher. I'll agree this isn't always the case (very situational), however in quite a few situations I have found it more efficient to increase morale.
I hope a few people stop to think before simply stating "might as well add another factory". It's NOT always true
But it's true MOST of the time?
The point of the matter is that it's a lot easier to just spam factories instead of thinking of matters like this. It works quite effectively.
I reckon with massive amounts of starbase spam it IS more efficient to boost morale and Total Production up. 5 starbases providing the percent bonus with massive amounts of farms and morale buildings will do the trick.
On the other hand, that's like an OCD trap.
I've said this before and it looks like I need to say it again. marigoldran, we get it you think your way is the only way to play, however, the truth of the matter is there are many ways to play the game. Could things be tweaked, yes, is morale broken, no. Is it a waste of time to build morale improvements or OCD to build star bases around your planets? You play the way you want, many of us others will choose to play differently.
All and all most of your posts are the same, telling everyone how you play the game and why you think everyone should play just like you. If you want to be constructive maybe try to be open to other solutions or other possibilities. Try to offer reasonable solutions to any issues you feel are present with out drastically changing the game. The game is what it is because the game has proven to be fun, has proven to be a top game. Changing things drastically may have a huge negative impact. On the other hand adjusting things so they work better as intended would improve game play and increase the fun.
Lastly back up your talk, you yourself like to talk and talk you do. However, I have yet to see anywhere you actually completing a game. If all your ideas and game play were so awesome than you should be completing games quickly and posting them to the metaverse. If I had a few days I'd challenge you to a multiplayer game, along with some other better than average players and we'd show you we all have our unique ways of playing the game that works.
Thank you for your time and effort on turning your posts a little more positive
A fair point, though I'd once again note that in the LEP-including examples the farm worlds were still higher - not by much, but still better. Once we move into your second post with the more specific setup (with harmony crystals and the beneficial tech setup, which effectively provide you with 2 free morale buildings), it does become possible to swing entertainment to be better (eventually); but then, we could do that by starbase stacking, for example. Also, if we have harmony crystals, we probably also have a few Monsantium deposits, increasing your base your population up and thus pushing your morale down. Finally, with the 'advanced' setups, we must also factor in the long run-in time to get those morale buildings up to level 2 or 3 - during which, you will have the same -25% malus as the other guys, without the bonuses that they get to enjoy. With newly-settled worlds in the late-game, this is a serious concern, as they may never, ever complete these buildings by the endgame.
Moreover, in additional to picking a specific tech and making sure I have harmony crystals (which admittedly is easy enough, but then so's picking Patriotic), I need to go back to all my previously-settled planets and replace existing buildings every time I settle X new ones. And for making these sacrifices, I can gain 4% production over the farms. Again, if we're going to go out of our way for the sake of finding a situation where the approval is worth it, I can use starbase stacking for the same purpose and STILL not bother building entertainment buildings - in fact, this is superior, since I can cover multiple planets with 1 base. And I can just go back to spamming factories on the colony.
One thing I've caught onto when people are doing their examples. Marigoldran, I wouldnt expect you to know, as you have stated that you have never built an approval building There are buildings better than stadium. Industrial Sector is age of ascension. Stadium is age of expansion. What about the other techs?
Amusement Park provides +15% approval and +1 for each level, +2 Approval to Adj Approval buildings
MegaResort provides +25% approval and I dont know how much each level, +3 Approval to Adj Approval buildings
some important points:
1) +15% is pretty lame for Amusement park, when its age of expansion tech is +6 approval. The +2 to Adj Buildings is nice. to use it effectively, one would have to have several Stadiums surrounding it. Ok, we have the same decisions to make with power plants, coordination centers, etc - usually though a "central" building offers 'almost' as much bonus as using one of the regular top tech buildings. Its the Adj Bonus that makes it worth it.
2) Entertainment Capital Doesnt sound too interesting, no? BUT, unlike Manufacturing, Trade, Research, and Economic Capitals, it adds +25% approval to ALL planets.
3) Worse issue, MegaResorts - I cant seem to build it, even though I have unlocked all techs. It appears to not be an upgrade from Amusement Park. Bug???? Now lets assume +1 each level, the fact that its +3 per Approval building begins to make it shine.
4) then you have Virtual World, adding +25% morale on ALL planets
so, using 2 Stadiums and the unbuildable MegaReport, with Virtual world and Entertainment Capital (total a +75% bonus), gives you 40 morale. Add a 3rd Stadium in the cluster, gets 11 more base morale, 60 Approval.
60 morale points from 3 buildings, having maxed out the entertainment tree? Not bad, no?
and holy crap, you might have to invest in Benevolent Dignified, only a Tier2 Benevolent Ideology, giving +50% approval to all worlds (with such huge games, I dont see why this would be a terrible sacrifice), which would get you 72 morale points on 3 buildings (which includes the +125% Approval Bonus total, if you have a MegaResort).
Now, imagine adding STARBASES, which at the highest tech, can give you +5 Approval EACH starbase.
Why people are only using entertainment centers and stadiums, just eludes me. Sounds like lots of people havent not alone tried to build approval relief, but have even failed to research it.
I didn't mean to suggest your way is wrong... I was just trying to illustrate how keeping morale high is a valid technique and is not "worthless".
I could have included examples without the harmony crystals or the supportive pop tech (which I myself don't always take). I just made up those examples randomly on the fly and there wasn't much difference and they happened to be in favour of morale. e.g. the example would be the same with a LEP of -24 and no harmony crystals/supportive population. I actually stated many times that it's situational and sometimes morale wins and sometimes production buildings. That's why I have my spreadsheet.
If I was to "go out of my way" I could find examples where morale is vastly superior, but that wasn't my aim.
You have valid points, and infact late game I use starbases exactly like that on my top planets. But I'm not a fan of starbase spam to cover 50 or 100 planets so morale buildings work for me in most cases.
All I wanted to show was that morale is not redundant and there are many cases where adding a factory does not counter the production loss from low morale. Actually when it comes to worlds where production is divided this is very often the case, along with highly developed worlds. There are many situations (at least until you have obscenely high LEP) where keeping morale high is superior to leaving it at 0%.
as I dont play insane maps, can someone share these "high LEP" values, seen on insane maps, in conditions where you:
a ) early game - have a fair share of the galaxy, colony rush has ended and ZOI borders are pretty much set
b ) mid game - taken over an empire or two, but the game is definitely still a challange as other races still as powerful or more than you, still out there
c ) end game - when you dominate, down hill, just a matter of point and click, no factors should really matter, as your current fleet and tech is WAY more than enough to win the game
But wait, I thought you were a Min/Max person and it would be against your "ethics" to do anything other than that. Min/Maxing is never about "it's easier to spam". Come on man, get with the program.
I learned something on another post - the % bonuses to morale are applied after LEP, not before. Therefore I think this is the bug plaguing all of you LEP Ranters. Yes, a large LEP is hard to overcome, if the largest non-% improvement is an age of expansion tech (stadiums). high end starbase techs are great, but you shouldnt be forced to use 5 starbases on each planet (or more, with extending their range) to control LEP.
All of the age of war and age of ascension tech % morale improvements are NULLIFIED due to this defect. Anyone know if its being fixed in 1.1? It was reported in May.
Tagetes,
You really think that your way is the most efficient? That is really irrelevant in a single player game. Your way is fine but may not be 'fun' to half the people who like to play tall. You can play Tall on Insane+Abundant hab and have no patriotic and malevolent. Easy. You just build tall with approval buildings on all your planets and use adjacency bonuses as well as a star base to help.
In the end some of your planets will be unhappy but you can still play and win. As I have stated before I play with FAR fewer planets and the game plays VERY fun and VERY challenging for me. I really really love the game as it is and do not care to tell anyone else how to play 'their' game.
In Alpha I came here and complained we needed a reason to rush resources. Stardock listened and now we have a reason (Durantium drivers?).
However you always seem to post here declaring that we all need to play your way in order to win or have fun. This is simply NOT true.
/anti-marigold rant off.
The point is that on larger maps with lots of planets, you have to starbase spam to deal with the LEP.
Unfortunately, the more planets you have the more difficult it becomes to starbase spam all of your colonies.
In other words, people who enjoy playing with lots of planets sort of get screwed over by the LEP or the excessive micromanagement. As a result many of you have STOPPED playing with lots of planets for precisely that reason. I've noticed that most of you prefaced your comments with "well I don't play with that many planets, blah blah blah blah blah." AND THAT'S ALL I READ IN YOUR COMMENTS BECAUSE IT MAKES THE REST OF YOUR POINT IRRELEVANT. IN OTHER WORDS THE MOMENT YOU WRITE SOMETHING LIKE THAT, YOU'VE ALREADY ADMITTED THAT I'M BASICALLY RIGHT. The rest of it is just unimportant personality fluff.
The problem with the game is that it rewards massive amounts of OCD behavior. The game has promised insane maps with abundant planets... and it can't deliver (yet... hopefully this will change in the future HINT HINT HINT) on that promise unless of course you go full OCD.
In other words the repetitive nature of the game takes away of the replay-ability and fun in the long run. After a while you'll start to realize that in every single game you're pretty much doing the same thing OVER AND OVER again.
Furthermore, the endgame is boring. Once you've know you've won, the rest is just a slog.
I've said this before and it looks like I need to say it again. marigoldran, we get it you think your way is the only way to play, however, the truth of the matter is there are many ways to play the game. Could things be tweaked, yes, is morale broken, no. Is it a waste of time to build morale improvements or OCD to build star bases around your planets? You play the way you want, many of us others will choose to play differently.All and all most of your posts are the same, telling everyone how you play the game and why you think everyone should play just like you. If you want to be constructive maybe try to be open to other solutions or other possibilities. Try to offer reasonable solutions to any issues you feel are present with out drastically changing the game. The game is what it is because the game has proven to be fun, has proven to be a top game. Changing things drastically may have a huge negative impact. On the other hand adjusting things so they work better as intended would improve game play and increase the fun.Lastly back up your talk, you yourself like to talk and talk you do. However, I have yet to see anywhere you actually completing a game. If all your ideas and game play were so awesome than you should be completing games quickly and posting them to the metaverse. If I had a few days I'd challenge you to a multiplayer game, along with some other better than average players and we'd show you we all have our unique ways of playing the game that works. Thank you for your time and effort on turning your posts a little more positive
Some people like to lie to themselves. I'm not one of them.
Oh, I know - but debate is a matter of point and counter-point I've noted that there are some fringe examples of where approval buildings are decent; the real point is that they become worthless when confronted with LEP. When one has to have a dedicated 'approval strategy' simply to make a basic building worth having at all (and even then, the bonus is generally negligible), I think it illustrates a real problem.
I don't think that's a bug. It's not very well designed (a shock to find a design issue in the approval system, I know), but it's not a bug. The % approval bonuses are basically there for adjacency bonuses, though.
The absence of mega-resorts etc is a bug (though I've added them back in to my games). However, these buildings are somewhat scuppered by their very long run-in time, during which you're stuck on low morale; also, since they scale at pretty much the same rate as farms they don't really make much difference. They do allow you to push through more LEP... eventually. But you'll have the reduced capacity AND the morale penalty for a very long time; depending on the length of the game it's questionable whether they'll ever pay off (particularly if you proceed to gain more planets).
As for the tall vs wide debate; I don't dispute that tall is fun. I enjoy it a lot more than Wide, tbh. But Wide needs a gameplay-based nerf, rather than being nerfed through the amount of boring micromanagement it entails. It is presently too powerful on all fronts. The best reason not to play a wide game atm is that managing lots of colonies is a ball ache. That should not be the case - both because there should be genuine strategic problems created by Wide play (and no, LEP does not count, since it's basically an arbitrary limit rather than an interesting problem), and because managing lots of colonies should (and undoubtedly WILL) be easier than it presently is.
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