Good day, Stardock community, recently I have been pondering how mining and combat are going to be implemented in the fourth installation of the Star Control series. And after much though I have come up with some ideas.
Mining:
Take 2: Do any of you SC2 fanatics remember the thrill of finding a rainbow world? Or discovering one of those rare and oh so satisfying ruby worlds? As much as I loved the mining mechanics in the SC2 its 2D surface map always...bugged me, it served its need sure, but something about it always bugged me. Now that we have far greater potential for graphics I think that a few adjustments and twists to the original mining formula could be done. First, instead of the old surface exploration I think mining could be made far more engaging if the minerals are located on a 3D globe, in which the camera will be locked (unless the user presses certain key where he can move the camera at will) on the lander wherever it goes. With this 3D map we can have a whole variety of new features, such as night time on certain parts of the planet (where the lander automatically activates some of its lights to illuminate all things in front of it), of course I would like to point out that like, like Star Control 2 the lander will be scaled up so it makes traveling far quicker, and I believe this should also hold true for SCIV, so sorry, no hour long planet traveling as that will take away some of the charm of Star Control's mining mechanics. Another thing that should be implemented into the new globe system is the utilization of mineral "biomes", where certain parts of the planet have different resources. For example, a radioactive-rich biome, while holding valuable minerals, is surrounded by huge lava and fire pits, making more common minerals, like basic metals, much more attractive. This creates a risk-reward situation where a person has to ask: "There are some nice radioactives and tzo crystals over there, but there are a lot of hazards surrounding these valuables, and I have lost most of my crew thanks to running in to a Ur-Quan dreadnought, should I risk it? Or should I mine the more common minerals?" I believe this will force the player to make more tough decisions which can make the game more exciting (at least, from my perspective). By adding this new mining system I believe that the outcome would be more exciting then the SC2 version while still holding true to its basic roots.
Combat: Now I know that SCIV combat is something of much controversy among Star Control fans, some love the old, arcade style of combat seen in Star Control 2, while others believe that it needs a complete overhaul. I have a few ideas that will hopefully cater to both sides of this debate. I believe using Galactic Civilizations III combat as a starting point is a good idea. I think the idea of a top-down view with the option of a free-roaming camera would work wonderfully in Star Control IV, imagine seeing an Earthling Cruiser and Ur-Quan dreadnought fighting at close range with all of the advantages of modern graphics, and the ability to view the battle at any angle. Now I believe that Star Control combat can be taken to a new level with the implementation of "escorts", ships controlled by the AI, but can add extra firepower to the battle. Generally I think the player should be controlling his flagship, with his escorts acting as the front-line. However, the player should have the option to not include his flagship in certain battles and therefore, control one of his escorts (a la Star Control 2). Allowing to have all of your fleets ships engage in combat at once will certainly help out new players, as when they engage a lone Ur-Quan scout they can rely on their escorts to take it down, while still learning how to control their flagship. This will also make combat move much faster, as you will not have to pick off every ship in the enemy's fleet in 1v1 battles like SC2, but instead be able to fly each fleet into each other in one, beautiful battle. I believe customization is also a very important thing for combat vessels, and I think you should be able to upgrade you flagship and escorts extensively. This will allow you to make your own combat style, whether relying on strong escorts to protect your flagship (which could then be made into a pure mining and cargo vessel) or relying on the awesome power of your capital ship, which in the end could mount hellborne cannons that do massive amounts of damage. Each class of ship (be it capital, cruiser, destroyer or frigate) should have their own individual advantages and upgrades, which will enrich the combat experience of Star Control IV.
Tell me what you think of these ideas and don't forget to pitch in your own! Constructive criticism is welcome.
P.S. sorry for the blank page before, I have no idea what happened.
Hello, guys. SC is very unique game and Im very interested in new installment.
Well, there is one problem that after each upgrade of your scanner, you would need to go back to previously explored planets to find more valuable stuff. It could be very tedious in big galaxy and I think that Stardock designers wont do it. Possible SOLUTION:- give scanners also some precision about more valuable minerals. It means scanner level X can find out if there is any valuable minerals level X+2 (for example) on the planet but cant target exact location of deposits. Planet will be marked as "more valuble stuff there" on map as reminder for player. So when player gets better tech he would know which planet he should return to.
I hope that you will forgive me, guys, but original combat from SC2 is probably one of the very few combats I DONT want to see in new SC. Big paradox, I know. I think it was created that way because of hardware limitations, but nowadays it could be enhanced to look like... for example like combat in Starsector. Its not completely different, its similar arcade style, you control 1 ship + few AI wingman, shields can be destroyed on each side, overall its more dynamic than some staged 1vs1 combat.
SC is about space adventure and exploration and aliens IMHO and combat is NOT the core feature. The game would work with different types of combat.
Can I just interject something about this topic - and I think many will concur - I HATE spaceship games where you CLICK where you want your ship to move to. That would be a huge game-breaker for me. Make CERTAIN to give us specifically DIRECT control of our ship. No clicking on a location you want to go to. Please!
^ I concur, Professor.
Don't fix it if it ain't broken.
I wish devs started posting basic ideas they're trying to go with. At least it'd liven up the forum and give us food for discussion.
Agree about unique ships with unique abilities and unique weapon sound design plus victory ditties (and the pilot animations with ship stats).HOWEVER, it would need to look super hot to be relevant with the current and future generation of gamers. Could the top down 2d style still work without looking dated and toyish in today's advanced gaming environment?Star Control has to either do the old 2d asteroids thing unbelievably well or come up with something so unique and impressive to play that it can't be ignored.
I really liked the planet exploration of Mass Effect 1 (perhaps without the really funky physics of the Mako). Something similar could be implemented for this.
Have a fully 3D region (probably with procedural generation) that you explore in a ground vehicle. When you find a mineral deposit, you can place a mining beacon that signals to your crew to send a mining crew and gives you resources. This way you can also explore alien ruins and have architecture dependent on what species they belong to and it gives the impression of exploring the galaxy and worlds in it.
For me the core of Star Control was the exploration and dealing with weird aliens and so on. The Combat was the weakest element that felt counter to the whole thing to me.You have this ragtag fleet of various races ships... and then you duel them one at a time? Just seems so out of place to me.I never liked the 1v1 melee battles. I'd much rather be able to control all my ships at once.
:EDIT: That doesn't mean I necessarily want an RTS style control.. In fact the best option imo would be direct control of your flagship while being able to issue orders to your escort fleet.
^ I love SC2 battles, but I never use anything other than my flagship in 'em. I love arcade feel to them, I hope they keep it this way.
^ I think the direct combat in SC2 was satisfying, however, if we were to combine the directly controlling your flagship while giving orders to your escort vessels (I think escorts should be AI controlled, but I think the player should be able to select whether they are aggressive, defensive and what ships to engage) this way we still maintain the flagship combat of SC2 (albeit, at a slower, more realistic pace) while adding in the awesome possibility of huge fleet combat, with Fwiffo at your side beating the crap out of Ur-Quan in the Battle of Draco.
I agree with you and The_Think_Tank. Flagship + AI wingmen combat is probably one of the best evolutions of classical SC combat. Is also allows for more tactical options because your aliens allies will fight with you and can have different AI (not to mention different pros and cons of their ships). So some of them may suit you more than others in different situations.
Yeah, it sounds like a good approach to me.
Very well said. +100
There was never a point in the game that the Spathi Eluder was not a viable main battle vessel. It was a little tough to get the hang of dealing with the Slylandro probes, and in duels, beating a Chmmr Avatar was very tricky and not worth betting on, but I didn't use the flagship for combat. There were too many fun ships, too much fun variety, to just spam Hellbore and collect RUs.
Besides, one well-piloted Spathi would get you all the RUs you could ever want. Go into Ur-Quan space and farm their battleships. Eluders were absolutely perfect Ur-Quan killers, green or black
Agree i liked to use all the ships, having the vindicator with powerful cannons was great too, i could choose whatever i liked whenever to combat whichever race, and the vindicator was always there to fight the last battle when my other ships were blown to smithereens in really intense battles.
There could always be the option of having the other ships add "bonuses" to the fight. Have a full complement of ships? 20% bonus in damage to the enemy if its just 12 vs 1. If its 12 vs 12, no bonus. 1 vs 12, well, the enemy gets the bonus.
Just a thought.
As far as combat is concerned, I always disliked the fact that I would be up against 5 UQ dreadnoughts, I'd have 11 ships with the Vindicator and I had to face them all one by one.
What I see: you do "rounds" of combat: You assign which ships are going to attack which enemy ships. So you could gangbang an UQ with a spathi, a Zoq-Fot-Pik and a Shofixti, while assigning a Chmmmr to another and your Vindicator to a third. The player chooses which ship to control (the rest is AI). After you're done dispatching your foe, you get out of the fight and see the state of your fleet, back to the ship selection screen. You see that your Chmmmr is at 63% "health" and dispatched its foe. Your Zoq-Fot is gone and the Shofixti blew itself. Your Spathi is untouched, but the UQ is still alive, at 81%.
What are your next assignments? Chmmmr and Spathi only? Or a complete assault with all 3 ships? Which ship will you command?
That way, you'd have *some* elements of strategy and *some* elements of fleet vs fleet, while retaining the feeling of commanding one ship.
Thoughts?
For the love of the game NO ! Countless of times we have mentioned why Star Control will not be a strategy game nor have strategy aspects ! There are 1000s of strategy games to choose from, go play them, star control has unique elements that no rts game can provide, change that and you have lost the spirit of what fuels the soul of Star Control, i would hate to have my ships fight autonomously, I really liked the challenge of fighting multiple ships one at a time, it honed my skills to be a better fighter maxing out my abilities on each and every unique ship, one has got to earn Progress in the game, not let a bot fight for you autonomously... The different ships is too interesting to be left fighting it out via AI style, i want to be in the jumpseat, ALL the TIME !
Another disrupting part of your idea is to suddenly stop fighting your main battle and look at the other ships status, it would highly interfere with the realtime "feel" of fighting your current battle and the sense of urgency and "on the spot" action would be lost.
The only aspect that can be kept is the starmap, aiming your trajectory on the map and let the vindicator travel to the star system selected autonomously, of course, the vindicator can be taken control of at will by simply moving it manually with keyboard input. If the landers/harvesters would have caryalls, those caryalls should be manually controlled as well.
As for fighting, Nothing should interfere with being in the "moment" having no other choice but to fight it out one on one or try and flee.
above 2 posts edited to correct spelling,grammar...
Agree with IBNobody.
programmers, don't create something new for the Newby star controllers, while leaving us old gens in the dust.
At least make it optional in the game somehow.
I understand that its been 20-25 years and technology has made huge improvements over the years and we all want to see those improvements.
But don't neglect what made star control so great, either.
2d ship to ship battles were iconic for tho game. At LEAST allow us to toggle from 2d to 3d and vice versa.
As far as the mining? I loved how that was originally.
But I can understand improving the simplistic nature of it as well. Honestly, I would be fine with just upgraded graphics and detail and little change here.
fact is, Campaign is very time consuming. But mining is quick and simple. The last thing you want to do is dread mining planets because it takes way to long to mine one single moon from its resources.
Keep it simple....
If people fall asleep mining iron And hydrogen from a moon, the game will drag and become VERY boring.
uh...that would be bad.
Agree, however making it just a little more interesting, once you scanned a planet and decide to land, lets say 4 pods descent at once when pushing the launch button once, and land on the planet, automatically once a spot has been selected prior to launching just as in sc2, the descent and land like the latest mars rover was landed with a rocket propelled landing platform/husk.. Once landed, let all of them deploy automatically, the first being the refinery, the second the repair bay and the 3rd a harvester and the 4th a caryall. From there all you need to do is pickup your harvester via the caryall and control it in realtime to where you want to harvest, once the harvester is deployed to the given mining field on the planet, harvest at will, return to caryall, back to base offload the cargo and go harvest again or, push a button for everything to pack up and launch autonomously to the mothership outside the planet.
Everything being controlled in realtime, navigating the dangers of the planet would really put you on the edge of your seat !, flying the caryall, being struck by lightning or damaged by tectonics/alien critters, but please let the caryall have to land when waiting for the harvester ! Makes it more realistic, give it some extra armor to withstand the conditions a bit more though if required, the rush of harvesting as much as you can while pondering how much longer you can hold out before deciding to fly back to base to offload the cargo.... Exhilarating ! !
^ Why won't you just play Dune 2000?.....
I'm for procedurally generated planet surfaces with real elevations, water bodies (rivers, lakes, swamps), woods, caverns etc.
Top-down view. Full 3D. (like so: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMoeURO2NmM - imagine No Man's Sky, but with Top-Down view). ME Mako style amphibious lander. Ride around, pick up stuff, avoid dangers, jump over chasms in the ground, dive underwater to pick up some artifact or investigate crash site, get in the cavern and dodge falling stalactites, shoot wildlife, kill local yeti for locals and get a reward etc. Now that's SC. That's fun. That's exploration, adventure, quests, rewards. What's so exciting about manual harvesting of resources?...
Already did and the whole cnc franchise thereafter too, not the same as Star control type harvesting.
What's so exciting about manual harvesting of resources?...
Absolutely everything ! !
In Star control, things happen quick depending on which planet you are on, it puts you in the hotseat of an exotic planet, making you feel as if you are actually on an alien planet that puts an anticipation in you after you have scanned the planet to land on it and dare to harvest valuable minerals while dodging the elements, and critters, the sense of danger, reward and accomplishment can absolutely not be matched whatsoever by conventional automatic RTS style harvesting.
In Star Control, YOU are controlling the Harvester and Caryall, flying through the weather, landing on a tectonic plagued surface, acid rain/dust, lightning as quick as you can then putting your caryall atop a mountain to be safe from the ground dangers below, while your harvester mines and faces the dangers below, the Absolute reward experienced when you just..just make it to base with a damaged caryall and harvester with the minerals you've mined makes it feel like you've beaten the odds and together you and your machines got the job done ! Put the the harvester and caryall on the repair bay, and go harvest again, or return to the mothership.
There is simply no better way to feel each and every new planet, than to experience it First hand !
As mentioned, a scanner/advisor system is unneseccary. The tectonic and weather ratings were all I needed to make a good decision. Don't make this new game a hand-holder. WE are going to be the most important part of the game. OUR decisions, OUR reflexes. I don't want the game to tell me not to go to such-and-such planet. If I want to go and die gloriously and reload my save, then that's all part of the fun too!
Celery Alien Ambush! RUN!!! Those were some good times...
I do not think that Galactic Civ III is a good starting point for ship combat. Galactic CIV III is Rock, Paper, Scissor combat and it is mostly the offensive stats versus defensive stats that determine the outcome.In Star Control, it has always possible to develop a pilot's skills so that he could defeat any ship by using any other ship (or with most ships anyway).
I would like a boarding option where the captains could board a disabled ship and fight the enemy captain in order to capture the ships like Pirates but I'd make it an option that could be turned off for people who want more traditionnal options. Each captain could have natural offence / defense. Humans could throw knives, use swords, bows. (Firearms would not be an option to avoid causing an explosive decompression.) Ilwrath could shoot a spider web from their butts. Thradash attack with their tusks like a wild pig. I'm thinking that the captain vs captain fight could be a bit like a Archon I fight.Getting close and boarding a ship would be a nice feature if a ship's capabilities are too much for the ability of the player's ship. Orz meets Pirates !
I agree, but I would like to be able to upgrade my fleet escorts as I would the Vindicator, as some ships would fall out of favor with newer designs, it would be nice if even the older models of ships have a (albeit small) niche. Customizing escorts would also go a long way to strengthening the RPG element of the game, and creating a bond not only between you and your ship, but also your entire fleet.
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