Does everyone else go for a quick military victory, ending the game before any empire gets >50 colonies?
I ask because I've been trying to play an economy/influence game and on larger maps it just turns into micromanagement hell. I've got 117 colonies, 106 ships, 305 starbases and a couple of hundred unread notifications. I'm popular enough that the other empires don't attack me, and I don't go looking for a fight.
I'm in hour 26(!) of my game, Turn 228. Each turn is taking ~20-30 minutes. It isn't fun any more. It feels like a job. About 90% of my colonies have starbases. Every turn I have ~30 new constructors that I have to send to improve an economy/influence/mining starbase. I have to couple click each starbase to find one that needs an upgrade. I thought this was going to be easier using the starbase screens and selecting "request constructor" but half the time it just says "you can't build a constructor at this time" and I have no idea why. So it's all micromanagement.
I've also never finished a game. I always give up and start again as it's clear I've won, with a power rating of 10x the combined total off all the AI empires. Simply because after turn 150 or so it's 20 minutes of empire starbase civil servant for every 1 minute of space emperor.
I see from earlier betas that there was going to be a AI colony governor but any mention of it looks to have been dropped but the current beta.
This is GalCiv we expect a lot of micromanagement when playing really large empires on big maps, don't we? I remember on larger maps GalCiv2 always became very micro-intensive late game on bigger maps and that was a much smaller game.
One option play on a smaller map size.
I mostly agree with you.
I have never finished a mega-map game in GCIII. I usually play until I am far enough ahead to feel like the outcome is certain, (or until I am screwed). I don't think I have ever gone much over 250-300 turns. In GCII I only played 5-6 huge map games to the end. I have gotten the GCIII mega-maps scaled down by playing with fewer stars, and occasional habitable planets. This usually keeps all the empires well below 100 in the rush phase.
The constructor problem is always there, and I am not tickled with the send constructor system as it is. However, I have surrendered to the system and it has saved me a lot of grief in managing star bases in the later game. I just request them and try to forget it is going on. If it would allow me to send multi-module ships, I would be happy.
I have been playing mostly the big maps in this beta but I will probably go back to the smaller maps soon.
I'm not of course saying that they can't make improvements to reduce it a little, but when you are managing an empire of 100 or more planets spread across a big region of space that's always going to be a big job.
Playing GC2 on very large maps I'd normally have the AI turned down enough I could ignore a lot of micromanagement late game and just go mop up.
I think splitting starports off from planet queues has added to the micromanagement. Now, instead of managing 100 planets, we manage 100 planets and 80 starports and 50 mining bases and 100 assorted other starbases.
I tried that first. I won too quickly. Especially with influence. I was taking 2-3 planets every turn. Thankfully influence was nerfed in the current beta. I though by giving the AI more room to expand, plus having more AIs on the map, it would be more of a challenge. But it doesn't look that way.
I think my current game is set to Immense scattered, occasional everything. I think I might try everything "uncommon" to cut down on the number of planets.
One thing I have found playing uncommon and rare, extreme planets become extremely irritating. It's just me , but it seems like all the very few high quality planets are extreme, even when they are set to rare. I just wish they would set extremes to random instead of skewing them to high PQ. Someone said they had seen a low PQ extreme, but by my recollection, I have never seen an extreme below 12.
I know I could turn them off entirely but I always feel a little cheesy when I turn off stuff that gets in your way a bit.
I started a game on rare habitable once and I think I wound up at T100 with about 4-5 colonies and about 3-4 extremes in my ZOC. Ideology was dead and it was so boring I just ended it.
Chris,
I play on Immense or Excessive and at least 12 to 18 AI plus minors I can sink 20 hours the first day and not have a single combat (outside of Pirates). I play on 'rare' planet habitability or slightly more. The number of planets also affects how many you get on the habitability drop down. I like Uncommon and Uncommon and rare on extreme. It feels about right. At 200 turns I have about 23 colonies and the AI are around 15-18. I was really pushing the land grab and the game I am in the Iconians are still not expanding, if they were I would have only 15 or so.
Having your colonizable planets more rare makes it VERY fun when you find them and really pisses you off when someone else gets it!
I have yet to complete a game this large. I am mainly playing to find bugs. Once we get gold Ill restart for the 12th time and keep my game. I play a mix of alliance power plays, war and Influence. I also like trading in this game. I disable time limits, scores and Ascension victories.
The micro is so thick at this point, its really hard to keep interest up past about mid-game.
Micro here is nothing compared to SEV.
Also isnt the first expansion supposed to have Governors/Admirals it it.
There should be a colony management tool like there was in GC2. You could almost play the whole game from that one screen.
I have a couple of comments (low for me, I know).
1. First, Larsenex's way of playing a very big galaxy but with rare habitable planets (I am thinking, sort of like how the Milky Way actually is, likely) is a very interesting idea and one that gives a huge difference in "feel" as compared to abundant, etc. Less stuff to manage but the individual encounters, etc., are more meaningful. Course you get that with a smaller game, but with a large galaxy the difference in ranges and speed, and the disconnect between parts of your empire that are far apart make, perhaps, for some different and rather hair raising thinking. Like when watching Star Trek back in the day --- most of the time there was only one starship. And that one starship had to get it right. Going to try that soon.
2. Second isn't so much of a comment as a question. I am interested/excited whatever about playing a very large game with lots of alien races and lots of planets to colonize, fleets to command, etc. But then when the game involves managing dozens of planets, shipyards, and starbases, and ships this is a problem? Wasn't that the idea? I remember from what seems like my late childhood playing Civ 1 and the games would take a week or two to play, and there were a lot of cities and units to manage, lots of patrolling the ocean to prevent invasions - I remember my early rough strategy was to try to conquer the local island/continent and then grind out a fleet of ironclads whose duty was to patrol the coasts to sink invaders before they landed. And it was all a lot of fun, The big problem was quitting for the night and going to bed.
Let me try to boil this down. I want a huge empire with tons of stuff to manage, but ... I don't want to manage it. Somehow I want it to manage itself. If I want it to manage itself, why am I playing the game? The only thing I didn't really enjoy was getting to the point that I was dominant and then having to grind the game out until it told me I won. To this day I don't know the answer to that one, except that maybe the game should have better way of figuring out when you are unstoppable and letting you off the hook. I did play some big Civ games to the bitter end solely for the purpose of getting a higher score. I hope I have grown up since then. Maybe not.
3, Ok, of course, I couldn't stop at 2. You expected that, sure. Oh well. This is around the idea that somehow shipyards and starbases increase the micromanagement drastically. First, starbases don't move around so I don't spend any time on a turn maneuvering them. Shipyards, well maybe a little at first but then also fixed in place. So when I research something maybe I go click "request constructor" a few times. Not like having to move armies around. Oh, and I have said before that one shouldn't be doing a ton of upgrades at a starbase anyway because those resources should be used to build fleets and the colonies should tend to be specialized, etc., so I won't go into that again. Second, shipyards being separate, hmmm. If I want to build something (in Civ say or GC2 as compared to GC3) I can either click a colony, find the build queue and click a ship OR I can click a shipyard and click a ship to build. I am rather of the opinion that separate shipyards reduces management --- because if I want to build ships I don't have to visit the colony at all and find the build buttons and activate that, etc. And I don't have to decide whether to construct a building or a combat unit so I can focus on the current topic. Oh, I do have to decide how to divide resources between ship building and colony building. But I don't have to decide that at each build, I can just move a slider if I am so inclined. Seems easier to me somehow.
I suppose I shouldn't even mention that every ship you build in GC3 can be a custom build, so that I have to suffer (?) the horrific micromanagement associated with building exactly the best ship I want for the time and purpose. Or I could say, whoopie this is great, and I can even spend more micromanagement time customizing the appearance of my ships if I want. I could even spend the whole evening designing ships and not get a single turn completed. Oh, the micromanagement hell! (But please don't send me to the "other place").
All of which is beside the fact that separate shipyards adds a considerable, very interesting complication to wars, since they are essential and vulnerable. But whatever. I am way past my 2 comments.
You know, I could be playing instead of being on the forum...bye for now!
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P.S. Yes, yes I know there is such a thing as pointless micromanagement. Click 5 buttons instead of 1 to do the same thing. I am just saying I don't see how to build an epic 4x game without a lot of management. But it's just me.
This is how I usually play too.
Agree, large empires take much time
Love to play on large maps because its very fun. You have lots of colonies, lots of ships, starbases- the whole screen comes alive- its so deep. You can feel the power- you can feel how each civilizations plays out- its unique feel- you cant do that on small maps- some things take big maps to happen.
Its easy to manage your colonies with starbases up to number 70. It then becomes longer when you go past 120. And its a grind when you go over 200, even 300- nightmare. You often forget what you were focusing on, you forget your 50 fleets from 100s somewhere on map- its completely normal. Constructors everywhere- constantly upgrading starbases.
When it hits "grind level"- it can become very tedious. When reaching this stage you dont specialize your planets anymore- put 6/7 buildings- repeat- your bonus from relics will do the rest- move on. Of course its important to specialize planets, but you dont have patience/time for it. You want to play the game not babysit it. I often wish there was a que preset- you put a que of buildings you want for this planet- save some templates and bam bam bam- move on.
Oh and dont forget when you upgrade ships- fleets auto disband and they loose their objectives- you have to put them back together and try to remember what fleet was supposed to do, what went where.
We need managers for big maps, similar to Endless space but more smarter.
* One for fleet micro
* One for planet que templates
* One for planet specializations
* Better starbase management
* Smart notifications- i mean i really dont want to read 200 notifications per turn- i need only the essential ones.
I have fiddled around some with the planet settings in the XML files and changed so most planets you find are quite low class and special traits are quite uncommon. But you can find some good planets once in a while.
I also set the planet count to common but the habitability to rather low values. This give a very interesting universe and a really manageable game on insane maps. It really is boring having hundreds of planets all over the place, especially when most planets are really powerful.
This works quite well for me and is enjoyable and make the initial start of a game quite interesting.
I'd love a collapsible 'tree' system like in sins of a solar empire for managing ships, starbases, colonies, etc.
I do not think planet building games suit large star counts and I'm a bit surprised they are putting resources into immense sizes.You need a different design ala DistantWorlds mechanics.
Yea Asherbery, DW had great automation, so good in fact it practically plays itself when left alone. I still love it to this day. However in a turn based game you are correct, these INSANE map sizes are just that, Insane. However I am having a lot of fun and if you reduce the number of planets even the largest maps become more manageable.
Actually, I've gone down to Rare habitables, and Rare Extremes, because the micro is so horribly bad.Abundant-abundant-abundant-abundant strikes me it would be exactly as folks are describing... 30-45 minutes per turn of playing majordomo to an endless collection of starbases and shipyards.My eyes are glazing over already.
Here's the problem. Those two constructors in the centre of the screen (2). Where do I send them? Well I want to upgrade my mining stations. But which of the 30+ mining stations on screen have been upgraded? I have to mouse-over each one and compare their output vs the number of resources they mine. Then I have to send the constructor. Of course each turn I have 30 new constructors so I have to do this 30 times. Sometimes taking 2 or 3 minutes per constructor trying to find a base that needs an upgrade.
Now imagine a screen call starbase management. It can look similar to the starport building management screen. I select "All starbases that have" from column 1. "an available mining upgrade" from column 2. Click "send constructor". And the 60+ mining bases now have a constructor on the way. All done from 1 screen with a minimum of micro. Just like how you can build 30 frigates at 30 shipyards, all from one screen currently.
I was just thinking about how easy Distant Worlds's empires were to control. I think it's because you can tell all (mining bases / starbases / ships designs ) to upgrade and they'll go off and do it without any further player input. DW is just as complicated as GC3 but it just handles the micromanagement a lot better, giving the player a lot better galactic emperor to civil servant ratio.
GC3 could do the same. If contractors were taken out of the player's control and instead a player just said "build a starbase here" or "upgrade this/all starbases".
I also think that if the 6 square limit for colonists to board a transport was removed that would cut down on a LOT of starports. While you can have 1 starport serve several planets with minimum distance production losses, you still currently need a starport at close to every planet if you want to harvest colonists. It'd even put up with "losses" of colonists, just like production, just to I didn't need so many starbases. I'm not talking 30+ hexes here, say 6 hexes with 100% transfer, 7-9 with 10% loss, 10-12 with 30%. I find a lot of my planets always seem to be 13-16 hexes apart, requiring two bases.
You often forget what you were focusing on, you forget your 50 fleets from 100s somewhere on map- its completely normal. Constructors everywhere- constantly upgrading starbases.
I get this all the time. Especially during automated move phase when I'll get a screen that says "upgrade starbase blah blah 147". I've forgotten where that starbase is, and what upgrade I originally wanted. Is it on the front lines? Does it need to upgrade weapons? Or was that the one next to my shipyard and I need to increase production boosts? We need context to make an informed decision.
In fact I think making the decision when the constructor arrives is suboptimal. If instead of saying "upgrade starbase blah blah" then a few turns later "build upgrade X", we said "build upgrade X at starbase blah blah" it would cut down on the micro.
I play on Immense or Excessive... I can sink 20 hours the first day and not have a single combat (outside of Pirates).
I'm the same. I build glass empires. I don't even research weapons until turn 150 or so, now that starbases have decent defences right off the bat. Then later when you're earning 5000 credits per turn, paying off 500 credits to keep a rival empire happy is nothing.
The number of planets also affects how many you get on the habitability drop down. I like Uncommon and Uncommon and rare on extreme. It feels about right. At 200 turns I have about 23 colonies and the AI are around 15-18. I was really pushing the land grab and the game I am in the Iconians are still not expanding, if they were I would have only 15 or so.
That sounds like a better way of going.
I wish the galaxy screen at the start used specifics. Instead of saying common, uncommon, rare etc they just put a number. You could make the game ask the player for the total number of habitable planets and the average distance between them.
I've no doubt stardock will improve certain aspects of things like starbase construction and planet management over time. But at it's core gc3 like gc2 is all about managing your empire and once it gets to a certain size that will always become a big job.
My advice find a size and set of abundance settings that suit you and how much management you're willing to do.
There should be a achievement for finishing a game on the maximum size setting.
There is, it's called "Trying to Prove Something".
The tile limit for population is most likely so that population does not degrade with tile distance. Plus having them to far away is a way to exploit unfairly.
Btw, are you guys making use of the command tab in govern? It lets you control much of your Empire from there.
Frogboy- you mean this? Its not intuitive... Can you give a short manual on this? Can you describe how this screen is intended to ease the gameplay?(micromanagement)
I have tried to use this but it kinda limits. Sure i understand you can give commands to build certain ships and go places and I love upgrade all command but in a huge empire you have lots of things going on at once and for example- I want my closest 5 shipyards by enemy to produce capitals- i cant do this from here. I want to send my nearest fleets to point A- again- i cant do this if i dont memorize each fleet by heart.
Then again below screen is very good for large empires- it gives you fast excess on whats going on, but.... Its missing functions. It doesnt let you control your planets- sure you can clik on planet- then it takes you to planet but its time- for each planet it sums up. If i want to build this improvement now for all planets i cant do this from here, i cant rush improvements from here, i cant choose tile improvements nor can I change projects from this screen.
This screen should receive extra love- you have all info in a nutshell but what good it does if you have to manually click each planet? Also filter doesnt remember your last action- it resets.
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