Paul announced on the 4/17 dev stream that specializations will collapse so when you choose one specialization you cannot choose the other options any more. Personally I like being able to research all specializations so I'm asking for collapsing specializations an option for the game rather than default. I know there are a lot of people that like collapsing specializations as well as people that like being about to research them all. Please make both groups happy and make this an option.
Agreed, I'd like to have the option of researching everything.
Paul said later in the stream when asked if this could be an option that it will not be an option. Citing balance and that he will be increasing the benefits and that all specialization techs would be unique but did not specify if this will be hard coded into the game.
The only reason this is unbalancing is if the game is designed to make is so and if I can't mod the game to play the way I want to it seems I've wasted my money and GalCiv3 will get a very negative review. I preordered early so I could get in the beta, give my feedback and hopefully avoid some of the things that have turned me off of various other games like Endless Space's version of the large empire penalty which has come to GalCiv as well. Collapsing specializations are not the way I like to play and it seems the game is getting farther from what I like to play and incorporating features that ruin my enjoyment of 4x games.
I have a major problem with this as well, now that I'm away from the devstream and taking a very good look at the tech tree. The problem isn't so much for weapon techs, which I can see the argument for. but for the NUMEROUS techs all over the four tech trees that are multiple choice. The one Paul already admitted might be a problem is the extreme world ones where most factions would only be able to fully restore two types of worlds. That is going to cause a LOT of unhappiness.
Other problems become apparent when looking at the Engineering or Colonization screens. Sure, some of the collapsible techs make sense to only allow one (though I wouldn't like it). But others are a mix match of concepts that are going to set player's teeth on edge for not being able to get all of them.
I strongly suspect one of the first things I'm gonna do when I really sink my teeth into creating a "home" mod is to get rid of collapsible techs and tweak the trees so everything can be researched.
It shouldn't be that hard to mod it out. Just glancing at the XMLs right now it looks like there is a bracket called "<Specialization>". Wipe that out of your tech trees in your "home mod" and you should be fine. The only problem would be rebuilding the tech tree so you get specializations while still moving up the tree. But it shouldn't be that hard. Might take a bit of planning or extra techs (say a dummy tech that let you continue to go "up" the tree while also allowing one to go off into a specialization branch that dead ends). It wouldn't be exactly like it is in the "base" tree. But if the goal is to be able to research all techs, it should be doable with a little bit of elbow grease. modding wise.
Here is an example of how it could work:
SPEC TECH PLACEHOLDER =====> Rest of Tree
...............................................................===|
.........................................................................|..........................................................................==> Spec 1 (dead end)..........................................................................==> Spec 2 (dead end)..........................................................................==> Spec 3 (dead end)
Might even be able to figure out a way to do this without a "placeholder" tech. As I said, it shouldn't be that hard, given how flexible the XMLs are.
Actually, as I look deeper into the XMLs, I don't even think the dummy tech or the dead end tree I mentioned in my previous post is necessary. Taken from a random XML:
<Tech>
<InternalName>TerranAdvancedConstruction</InternalName><GenericName>AdvancedConstruction</GenericName><DisplayName>TerranAdvancedConstruction_Name</DisplayName><TechTree>Terran_Tree</TechTree><ShortDescription>TerranAdvancedConstruction_ShortDec</ShortDescription><Description>TerranAdvancedConstruction_Dec</Description><ResearchCost>60</ResearchCost><TechPoints>1</TechPoints><AICategoryWeight><Military>16</Military><Growth>22</Growth><Tech>20</Tech><Diplomacy>8</Diplomacy><Expansion>14</Expansion><Wealth>12</Wealth><Influence>10</Influence><Fortification>18</Fortification></AICategoryWeight><Prerequ><Techs><Option>IndustrialSpecialization1</Option><Option>IndustrialSpecialization2</Option><Option>IndustrialSpecialization3</Option></Techs><TechAge><Option>AgeOfExpansion</Option></TechAge></Prerequ></Tech>
(Apologies for the tabs being stripped out)
Notice how there are three options for "<Option>XXX</Option>" in the tech section for prereques? If I read it right, that if you have any of those techs, you can move on.
Now here is a tech that is one of the specializations:
<InternalName>TerranConstructionOptimization1</InternalName><GenericName>ConstructionOptimization1</GenericName><DisplayName>TerranConstructionOptimization1_Name</DisplayName><TechTree>Terran_Tree</TechTree><ShortDescription>TerranConstructionOptimization1_ShortDec</ShortDescription><Description>TerranConstructionOptimization1_Dec</Description><ResearchCost>88</ResearchCost><TechPoints>1</TechPoints><Specialization>TerranConstructionOptimization</Specialization><AICategoryWeight><Military>16</Military><Growth>18</Growth><Tech>4</Tech><Diplomacy>6</Diplomacy><Expansion>14</Expansion><Wealth>8</Wealth><Influence>10</Influence><Fortification>12</Fortification></AICategoryWeight><Stats><EffectType>MaxManufacturing</EffectType><Scope>Global</Scope><Target><TargetType>Colony</TargetType></Target><BonusType>Multiplier</BonusType><Value>0.15</Value></Stats><Prerequ><Techs><Option>AdvancedConstruction</Option></Techs><TechAge><Option>AgeOfExpansion</Option></TechAge></Prerequ></Tech>
If one strips out the "<Specialization>XXX</Specialization>" bracket, everything should be fine. Might be a bit interesting to see how the tech tree dynamically generates or how it handles the separate XML file that handles specializations. Even so, the fact that a tech can have muiltiple prereques to unlock it (see first example) AND Specialization is a bracket choice, should mean this is moddable out. How easy that is and what happens when one does I won't find out until the game goes gold and I really start messing around with the XML structure.
Personally I like that the Specializations are blocked out after chosing one. You do know that if its a spec you do not have you can always trade for it from an AI.
One consequence is Extreme planet specialization where we will not be able to get 100% on all 5 types. Only one of Barren, Ocean or (cant remember 3rd type), and only one of either Toxic or Radioactive.
This for me sucks and we should have a way to grab them.
And, yes, this is gonna massively suck for Extreme Worlds.
Since its not in yet I wouldn't rule out having to jump through some hoops to mod it out however since the tech trees are all XML files then modding them should be possible.
I probably overreacted to the news. While there are aspects of the game I think could be done better its overall shaping up well, there have been several things introduced in beta 5 that exactly what I hate about some of the recent 4x games and more keep popping up and when paying customers say we don't like that, the response is too bad.
personally i can live with this either way id like to be able to research everything but in some cases it doesn't make sense
lets say were using a certain kind of wire to transfer data. and someone comes up with a new kind of wire thats 20% smaller
now we have 3 options
anyway the point in this is that the choices are mutually exclusive the reason we have a choice here is that someone 'created a new wire' now you're choosing how to use that wire effectively.
obviously this does not work in all cases but at least IMO it explains a few choices
i saw a few times where paying customers asked for this feature. you cant make everyone happy all the time
I didn't see the dev stream. Did they say that if I choose beam specialization I can no longer use kinetic weapons or missiles? That would be a deal breaker for me and it truly saddens me. I hope no one tells our military planners about this.
It is one thing to block a tech like solar sails vs Ion drive, but to block an entire weapons tech is beyond stupid. I'll be waiting around for a mod and still unhappy that the bases game has left me at the alter.
You can choose any or all of the weapons, but you will have to choose between reduced mass, better accuracy, or less cost (or whatever the 3 things are) for all weapons.
joking?
you actually dont get weapons on spezialisation techs,
so... they will still be all available
Okay, that makes a little more sense, I seldom get around to all the choices anyway. It's still not the neatest idea this year but it is bearable.
mortili, you do get weapons from a specialization but you get all of them and as mentioned above the specializations now apply to all types.
Androshalforc What I asked in the dev stream was if this could be an option because lots of people want it either way, so make both of them happy rather than choosing one and pissing off the other. I've seen people ask for collapsing specializations before and I always spoke up against it and was never alone, nor were the people asking for it. However much of my choice to back the game was modability, the have it your way option. Now the devs are saying nope, we decided to go the other direction. Likely this will be implemented in the XML so it can be modded out but Paul was specifically asked if it would be hard coded but didn't answer. So I want to make sure they know many players don't like this decision while they are implementing it and that I at least will be vocal about it.
As for developing a new process that allows only one option for better, cheaper or smaller that tends to be how things start but over time things tend to get better, smaller and cheaper, it takes some time but generally its not a choice of one but standardized as more research is done and that is exactly why I want to be able to research all of the specializations.
I think what Paul is trying to do is to make a more dynamic tech tree to build more replay-ability but I think this is not the way to do it, make the unique techs unique, things like actual cloaking, teleportation gates, and the ability to turn a dead planet to living one as examples. These make sense as unique technologies, each would require lots of resources and would preclude spending lots of resources on the others, would give strategic benefits and don't expect you to give up what you expect your next phone to be, better, cheaper, and smaller.
Well, just to be the odd man out, which I seem to like to be, I will say that I think the idea of forcing a choice is a good idea. That's what 4x games are all about, imo.
A good 4x should force choices and not let you win by doing everything. In other words, doing everything should be a bad strategy. Tough choices and specializing with a touch of luck and good guessing perhaps. Trade offs with choices. I believe you can still get the other techs by trading...which introduces another interesting trade off and diplomacy issue.
Maybe the biggest problem with forced choices is that someone will figure out that one of the choices is always better, and then you have nothing. Minimization is always better than a little more accuracy, etc. So they have to be done carefully for sure.
I agree the biggest problem is with extreme worlds....what is going to happen is that it will be modded away OR people will just set extreme worlds to rare or worse. But challenging people to try to trade for stuff that's hard to get isn't such a bad idea, I just wonder if anyone will give it a chance.
When you choose your race or your race config you make choices that cannot be doubled up. If you don't have the extra constructor module perk, you can never get it. Seems similar to me, and adds a lot of color. Homogeneity is not the goal imo. We want race specific abilities and techs. Choices in the tech tree add to that, they don't subtract.
But that's just me.
Well for one thing the choice is always better. There are other ways to get around cheaper and smaller but better stands alone.
I personally think this is a good move. However, I'm a bit concerned that this is coming in so late and close to launch.
Choices are exactly my point, my choice to get all three specializations is a choice. Rather than getting say a new hull size faster I'm improving the tech I already have. How is taking away my preferred option a better hard choice? How is I can only have better, cheaper or smaller and move on a harder choice than should I get the next tier of weapon now or improve the one I have already?
Those shouldn't even be considered specializations, they should be forgone conclusions. If your going to insist on limiting my choices give me real Gods damned choices not the bland crap that is in place now. Again the nature of technology is to get better, cheaper and smaller, why is that even a choice?
Actually that gives me an idea. Really most of the specialization techs should be their own lines in the tech tree, miniaturization, efficient manufacturing, efficient building and so on. Replace them with actual specializations like, accuracy, faster rate of fire and range for weapons, and other good stuff for other things. Even those shouldn't be collapsing, things that are worthy of collapsing specializations are chance to ignore defenses, chance of disabling a weapon or module, chance of stunning the ship for a few seconds, those I wouldn't mind giving up the other options for, not basic ****ing improvements. Basic improvements are NOT specializations and leaving them as specializations is just lazy design.
You and I understand choices differently in 4X games. To me, the point is to have decisions that are either one thing or another, mutually exclusive options, or combinations that don't work as well as others. Stardock seems to like to put in ways for people to then get around those obstacles There is the option to do AI trading, or some other clever ideas people will come up with. It's not supposed to be always easy to get everything you want. There is supposed to be a challenge, especially for those who play at higher levels.
I don't have a big problem with this based on the way they have designed it. It is not as bad as I originally thought. (I missed the dev stream), but I do favor it being a players choice if I am going to take a position at all.
Maybe instead of a toggle they could make it part of all difficulty levels above normal
Maybe they could make it a race trait, like in MoO2.
I hope the collapsing specializations will be an option. If not, I really do hope they will allow us to trade for the other techs with the AI players. Sometimes it is no big deal, but in some cases I definitely want a second "specialization," especially with extreme worlds.
Regarding which choices are better, I see that some can be gained through acquiring planetary resources, where as others (accuracy) seem to be harder to find a substitute for.
I was hoping GC3 would have lots of OPTIONS, rather than lots of forced choices.
There are really 2 issues here and and they should not be grouped together. The first is the issue for collapsing specializations that I just don't like on principle but can accept if done right. The second is what those specializations are.
On the first point I just don't like it but will accept it if done right, currently the 2 issues are planned to be lumped together and this is why I'm so adamant against it. The current specializations shouldn't be specialization, they are basic improvements. If those improvements are moved to a new line in the tech tree and the specializations are replaced by actual specializations, things that should be unique, I will be ok with that but should absolutely not be what you expect you next phone or tv to be, better, cheap and more appropriately size(generally larger screen, smaller components). This is what really bothers me about the decision to go to collapsing specializations, the specializations are inappropriate in the first place, these should be no question that these aspects of everything should get better, and forcing only one option.
Basically this choice is for the entire empire, your next TV can have better picture but be the same size and cost, be cheaper but have the same quality and size or be a better size but have the same quality and cost. This is a bad choice, this should not be a collapsing choice but a priority choice and preferably in its own line in the tech tree. If there must be a collapsing specialization make it a worthy one and leave me my better, cheaper, smaller, more efficient, and higher growth rates.
The more I think about this, the more I dislike it. Mostly because of the way things are grouped together in the tech tree currently.
Want to be able to create both Economic and Research treaties? Sucks to be you, you can only choose one to create.
Want to be able to fully upgrade all Extreme Worlds? Sorry, your scientists want to take a vacation from all of this, you can only choose two to fully "fix".
Want to be able to create different kinds of alliances (military, technological, or cultural) in the game? Huh, well for some reason we can only create one of those of alliances. Weird. Oh, well.
This is just a few of the ones that leap out to me as showing why this isn't a great idea to implement, especially this late in the design process. And these aren't even getting into the ones that force one to decide between, say, faster ships or smaller drives. Or more productive worlds or faster growing ones (PS: ALWAYS choose +1 Production there ).
Some are less irksome than others, yes. But others are downright teeth grinding when it comes to being "forced" to make a choice.
And, no, hoping that other AIs will research them "for me" ain't much of a hope. Not if they all research the same things and/or I'm far ahead of them tech wise. And that's presuming there are even enough AIs to trade with in a game.
I think this will take some of the fun out of the game. There are some tech specializations that are really quite different techs. Perhaps they should not be specializations at all. In this I am thinking of the extreme colonization specializations. The techs for cold, aquatic, and barren worlds do not feel like the same techs at all.
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