Currently, I don't see the point of sensors on most ships.
What I generally do is create "sonar buoys", basically cargo ships with nothing but sensors on them. A few of these can see who quadrants of a medium map, ensuring nothing gets through my territory without my notice, and its far more efficient than placing sensors on all of my ships.
In addition, because of the buoys, I never feel the need to get strong sensors. Even the basic ones provide plenty of distance when massed on a cargo ship.
I think sensors need a change to make them more generally useful (some combat bonus), or allow only so many sensor modules on a given ship.
That is because medium maps are still pretty small, the sensor boats I made for large maps that showed half the map barely cover my borders. I started building medium and large hull versions. Even the large hull version on insane isn't that impressive and the first of them I made for that purpose had a 75 sensor range.
I don't consider it a bug. I consider it a darn clever idea. I am going to have to figure out how to use that on my huge maps. I can see sacrificing some sensors for a little bit of engines so I can tag along just behind an invasion force.
Also one reason to go down the sensor tree isn't for new sensor modules, but for passive sensor range buffs, which apply to ships that are already built and deployed. Getting a +20% sensor range boost is very rewarding on sensor buoys.
In my opinion, sensor range (and possibly everything such as ship range and weapons) should have diminishing returns.
It makes absolutely no sense that each module increases the radius by a fixed amount, in a real world physics sense or interesting game play sense.
But again, just my opinion.
P.S. More tooltips please!
I entirely disagree on weapons, though rather than slapping in diminishing returns, it would be better to just put a hard cap on the amount of sensor arrays you could slap onto a ship, that is if this is even considered an issue, imo.
Yes I think the idea of creating ships to use as sonar buoys is a very good strategy. Generally on Smaller maps Sensors and range matter a lot less anyway as does speed.
Sensors should be limited to like 3. Perhaps, with Large ships able to carry 4, and Huge ships able to carry 5.
Even just 3 sensors can light up a reasonably large area. Sensor ships are so much more powerful at covering vast distances than starbases, it's a total joke.
Personally, I think Starbases should have the ability to see much further than anything other than a HUGE ship. It creates great interplay, with wars being fought over starbases, and not just randomly throughout space.
Knocking out a starbase on one front, so they can't see the flank attack coming for their planet in time is like real warfare. Sensor buoys need to go...
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For now, I just sit the bouys within a starbase to help the believability factor. But they're still way too strong.
I agree that starbases should have a larger viewing area but I like my sensor ships and don't want them nerfed.
What about how the AI uses sensors? If they do not do anything like sensor buoys then its too strong of a gimmick for a player. One set of sensors per ship makes much more sense. For watching borders we should be limited to starbase sensors. I mean the idea of a 'listening post'(BoTF! ) would be more interesting. Something you'd have to build up and protect on your border instead ships moving around the border, the idea being that giving up the ability to zoom through space mean you have a lot more space and flexibility size wise to create huge antennas, dishes, etc.
I have no problem with the AI building sensor ships. Really when I watch the AI it bugs me at how haphazardly it explores, perhaps sensor ships are the answer to that. Adding sensor ships to the default ship lists isn't a bad idea either.
I mean what is the best way to know if someone is attacking you? Being able to see them coming from a long distance. What is the best way to know which planets to colonize?I say its sensor ships as they reveal a lot more area and you don't have to send them to each and every system to reveal them. I've moved to sensor ships for most of my exploring because even though they are more expensive they reveal more of the map and give me a better idea of what is around me.
I'm not saying its good or bad for the AI to build and use sensor ships. I'm wondering if they do in GCIII or if its even possible. Because if they do not do it in game its too easy for the player.
The AI doesn't have to use the same tools, I just don't like outright cheating. As far as I know there is nothing stopping the AI from building them but I haven't seen one do so yet. Also the AI might not value a long sensor range enough to want to build sensor ships.
I can't get past the fact that 4 sensor ships completely reveals an entire quadrant of an excessive galaxy. That's just illogical.
If they're going to stay as they are now, then we should just hit ~fowtrans around Turn 50 because the end result is the same[~fowtrans removes all fog of war from the map].
The game then has no mystery, and much less challenge. You always know what's coming, and what to build far in advance to counter it.
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It's in no way a good mechanic, and it's a huge nerf to AI's capabilities vs player. I wouldn't go as far as to call it an exploit, but it's just as cheesy as any of the current diplomacy strategies that you can pull off against the AI. Sure the AI could be taught to make them too, but two wrongs don't make a right...
Granted...some people won't see it as a "wrong", to each his own...
What size ships are you using? I've been restarting for each patch so my ships haven't been getting that big but the game where I got large ships and made a large sensor ship with 75 sensor range didn't seem to be that big to me on an insane map.
As you said I don't think its wrong, I see no reason why I wouldn't want to see more and since the sensor range on starbases(last I checked) wasn't that great I tried ships and that gives me what I want so I use it. No one is forcing you to use it if you don't like it and if you don't like how it ends up in release mod it to the way you like it.
Just a slight clarification. I'm not against the use of sensor ships in theory. I just think the range on sensors is far too strong.
Starbases and Planets obviously need a sensor range buff(upgrades/buildings) that can extended their range much further with proper investment. Ship sensors shouldn't really be able to see further than a fully upgraded starbase/planet.
The problem we then run into is the economy of sensors on ships vs starbases/planets. The investment needed to put additional sensors on ships is minimal, compared to any investment in starbases(even if they were buffed).
So the only real solution seems to be a nerf to ship sensors. There's already hard limits to things like Jammers, Sensors should be the same.
And either of us can tell the other to mod it to our liking.
But I'll support my side in the feedback forum because imo it's better for the game, and it's not officially released. And if you think keeping sensors the same is better, then you can continue to support that.
I thought this sensor ship depended on late game sensor and miniaturization and hull techs to achieve the effects described. Are you saying that turn 50 is a reasonable expectation of that capability? Either I don't understand the trick being described or turn 50 seems exaggerated enough to be actually false as a claim. I don't consider bee-lining as a terribly practical strategy, not to the point of neglecting economy or military, that's for sure. If it involves second age techs, it has to have some detours to get past the barrier. You could do it, but you would be sacrificing something somewhere for the privilege.
I don't see it as a probable early game exploit. I would teach the AI to use it if I were doing the AI, but I believe in a more scripted AI than Brad is talking about.
If the AI (or anther human) did put together a humongous sensor ship and hid it in a support fleet, how would we know? We can't see their sensor range. That point bothers me more than some of those made so far. That could be real hard to play against, both for human and AI. "Why are their ships always in just the right place? They must be cheating!!"
I both like and dislike the way sensors currently work. I don't want to see a hard cap, but I do want to see some sensibility applied to how things work. For example, I'd like to see less of an effect for ships and more of an effect for starbases.
So, to me it would make sense to have ship sensors be limited, perhaps to one of each kind--or even just one sensor unit. If this was the case, they could be a little more powerful, and scale to higher values with higher tech. And then somewhere in the tech tree, there could be a tech for an unlimited percentage-based sensor amplifier. So, the more of these modules you install, the more they amplify the sensor module in use. (of course, there could be a couple of these modules, one in the mid game and a better one in the late game.)
But that's getting pretty specific. Back to the general issue--I agree with the notion that starbases should have the capacity for greater maximum sensor range than most ships, with the exception of huge and perhaps large hulls.
For the meantime, however, I'm using sensors the way they are built. I'd be silly not to
This is 1 bouy ship on Turn 50.
Large Hull - Sensor Array(13) 130/130
Sensor Range: 56.7
Four to five of these will reveal the entire center section of an Excessive Spiral Galaxy. About 16 of them would reveal every star in the galaxy. Turn 50 ship.
On Turn 56(finish Hull Capacity Focus, and if Sensor Miniaturization worked in 0.82), you could build a ship with 78.8 sensor range. So a 35% increase in radius from the one shown above.
http://imgur.com/pdhhh1n Ship - Turn 56
4 of these placed correctly can cover area: 316 x 316
Ps - I used a game that happened to be saved on Turn 46, so it's not a bee-lined tech path. It's also Habitable Planet-Rare setting, so done under hard circumstances.
First off you can build a sensor ship from turn 1, it comes out to 17 or 18 sensor range. This is the way I generally build them, mark 1 is the one you can build right away, mark 2 is with the second tier of sensors after interstellar travel or something like it, gives sensors, life support, +1 speed and something else, sensor range 21 or 22 mark 3 third tier of sensors after researching the first dedicated sensor tech, range 28 to 30, mark 4 after high capacity ships, range 34, mark 5 after completing the hyperion shrinker, range 38 to 40. Generally by this point between turn 80 to 100 depending on start and vagaries of the game, I'm building medium hull ships that have about a 45 to 50 sensor range. That sounds like a lot but on an insane map that might not even cover your territory let alone cover all of the approaches to your neighbors and certainly doesn't reveal the entire map.
Well, thanks for showing me. I'm glad I'm not tasked to solve the design puzzle this time. We'll see what happens.
I personally love that we can make large sensor ships. But, what I don't like, is how useless sensors are on normal ships. I'd like sensors to grant a small accuracy bonus so you don't feel its a complete waste on combat ships to have sensors.
Making these sensor buoys isn't really a clever idea that rewards strategic decisions. It is an incredibly obvious idea that punishes those who do not make such an obviously good ship.
If it is so good that literally everyone should always do it (which it is), then it isn't ever a decision whether or not to make one. It is simply a requirement in order to not handicap yourself.
I'm reiterating what I said earlier. If the AI is not/can not do this it makes the game much too easy for the player. While we of course can choose not to do it, i'd rather have a different implementation. It could make the game even more interesting than it already is.
IMO there needs to be a cap of maximum sensor range, and both this cap and the effectiveness of sensors need to be scaled or put into relation with the galaxy size.
I think multiple sensors are not realistic. If I have a radar set that can see 100 miles, putting a second one on a ship wouldn't make it 200 miles. The limit of the radar is unchanged. That is how it should be here as well IMO.
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