I know that this is not the only thread on this, but I think that way too much time is spent on starbase construction. I'd argue there's more time being spent on starbases than on planet management and ship construction combined. It gets to the point where it detracts from the enjoyability of the game.
What is needed is a simpler system. Otherwise, late game in large maps ends up being bogged down on starbase management.
I propose something simple:
First constructor: Builds a starbase
From there, starbases are like planets - you just build whatever modules you want and can ask a planet to supplement its construction if you want to hurry or pay a fee to get the module instantly. That should be much easier and much less time consuming. Just queue up what modules you want.
Defenses
Also, I think that starbase defenses need a buff overall - perhaps with the option of building super power starbase defenses that can resist a decent sized fleet (kind of like Sins Starbases) - at a price of course.
love this concept!
Para-phrasing Brad Wardel (Frogboy)
"Building constructors is going to be a major part of this game. Otherwise what would we be using the shipyard for other than cranking out military ships and the occasional colony ship."
I agree with him but it does not mean I don't want better tools for doing it. The send constructor feature works well but we need more and there are a lot of good ideas on the forum to pull from.
First, why is using our Shipyards for building military ships and the occasional colony/freighter a BAD thing? Do we really care what our shipyards are doing per-se? All we care about is effect no?
What I do understand is that they want Starbases to COST you the time/energy/material that could be used on military ships, but there are cleaner ways to do it.
1) As I mentioned in another thread, make Starbases require a planet sponsor to produce, thus stealing production from yards/military ships.
2) Alternatively, you could add a third slider to the Govern production sliders, you can have Social/Military/Starbases
I prefer #1, but #2 is essentially the same thing, but lets you steal that production from the social projects instead of the military, which is why I prefer #1. I don't think we or Brad should care HOW we steal production from those shipyards, at least not when we are saying "This isn't fun and I need to be doing less of it" and changing things would help.
If building non-military ships from yards is really the goal, I can think of several ways to help with that.
1) Make trade routes multi-ship-able, so we build frieghters more.
2) Make the survey tech MUCH earlier, so we have a reason to build multiple Survey vessels.
3) Mining Ships instead of mining Starbases.
4) Espionage Ships which work just like Freighters, build them, send them to planet, they give you a vision bonus and some more details on the empire. Enough ships and maybe you start leeching credits? Diplomacy penalty is a result of course.
I don't actually LIKE any of those ideas (well, except the survey one), but they accomplish the task of "not just military ships" without being AS repetitive as the constructor mini game.
The thing is I don't want to have to build constructors to build starbases, I want to just build starbases. My problem isn't with having to make choices about whether to build infrastructure or military, I have an issue about having to build massive numbers of constructors to do build that infrastructure. I don't particularly care how its implemented, be it queueing up the modules on a starbase or a planet or a planet sponsoring the starbase.
I don't find it fun to spend so much time building constructors to build the starbases I want. There has to be a better way that is fast and fun, or at least not so tedious.
agree i dont mind that it costs me production to build starbases what i want is a more standoffish system as they have said for the battle viewer you're in charge of the empire not the soldiers in this case its the same i want to build an economic starbase here and im going to direct resources from there
i shouldn't need to go to go to each starbase and order it to order constructors that should be done on its own
i shouldn't need to go to each starbase and tell it specifically what upgrades to do
i shouldn't need to go to each shipyard and tell it to build constructors ( a half fix is in for this but its not working as well as it should as far as im concerned)
i shouldn't need to select each constructor and tell it what starbase it should go to (automatic rally points are currently broken)
i should be able to design an upgrade template that a starbase will follow
example
go to starbase management
upgrade template manu-Res-Short
this template will attempt to build factorys and research bonus's first and wont buildeconomic/range/milatary bonus's
template manu-Res-Mid
this template will build 1 range extension then econ ring, then factory's and research bonus, finally sensor upgrades and some military defenses
template manu-Res-Far
this template will build both range modules then an economy ring, factorys then research then defenses and sensors
** edited some typos
I agree with all ideas to improve the constructor/star base system and we can't say enough about it.
I completely agree here. If Shipyards only build military ships....then fine, no problem. But lets not use them as a crutch for what is currently a somewhat clunky system.
I will also echo the idea of starbases drawing resources from a planet, like the shipyard. All the mechanics are already in place, and it should dramatically reduce the spam that is currently needed.
Yeah, building constructors gets quite tedious with time.
I like that idea, UnleashedElf.
I tend to agree building constructors and sending them to your starbases get old very quickly in a sizable empire.
I still want more and better ways to deal with constructor and star bases, but I have to admit that the more I use the send constructor system the better I like it. I have learned that any constructor that I build must be used to build a new starbase/mine. Then I order the constructors needed to upgrade and forget it. It might not get built as quick as I would have built it but with a little patience it gets done without all the previous hassle.
It can still be improved and that is what I want to see. They are unlikely to do a 180 and completely change the concept at this late date so we should try to suggest improvements within the current framework. I would like to be able to assign specific shipyards to build all the constructors for upgrades, and forget about it being the nearest. Of course this would be changed as your area of operation moves out from your core worlds. Other things that would be helpful are a way to cancel previous constructors ordered or a way to declare a starbase complete so no further ships will be sent, There are lots of ways the current system can be refined and improved.
I like the idea of a planet sponsoring a starbase, proposed above and if they said it was going to happen, I would feel good about it. I just think the radical departures from the current systems at this late date are not going to happen. No matter how easy we explain it can be done. From the point of view of the devs it will be a lot harder and it always involves what I have found with all changes, The Law of Unintended Consequences. This is a sub-section of Murphy's Law.
BTW, I bought a star base mine from the Thalians, (they came to me to sell it). It was a nice deal for me with Research relic bonuses and durantium coming from the mine but it is about 60% developed and they are a long way across the galaxy on an insane map I ordered 3 constructors just for S&G to see if they would be built and pile up at the border or if they won't build them at all since they were not built by me.
Early game and on smaller sized maps it is viable.
The problem is in late game - you can often find yourself managing constructors more than anything else, which makes this tedious.
I am not going to pass up a chance to rid the game if constructors. I would like to see them use there own damn production when they have it from asteroids. And like it was said earlier, this plays perfectly into the popular idea of Starbase populations. Simply queuing a module From a sponsoring planet is a sound idea as modules don't cost alot, most of the work is from researching it. And if we were to have multiple projects being able to be completed a turn like we were promised then it would be even easier.
And yeah, having shipyards have there production deducted from connected starbases sounds good too.
I think the only reason the current constructor/starbase system made it out of alpha is that most of the people in the alpha though Gal Civ II was nearly perfect. I know when I got into the early beta all of my feedback saying the constructor system isn't fun and using the same system as 2 is bring forward one of the bad aspects of 2 were shouted down by the hard core fans. Now that the game is bringing in a wider audience there is much more support for better system. Yes the current system works but it takes a lot of time and isn't fun. A sponsor system is already in place for shipyards and solves the issue much more simply and without so much time being spent on it. Yes it will still need some attention but I think not as much as currently. Even with the request a constructor option.
Another option may be to allow building another constructor to be the option to "hurry" production and normal starbases to again, be like planets in that you queue the modules you want.
This isn't really fair, there have been posts that people need too many starbases, and that constructor spam is irritating going back into 2013, this thread's concept was mentioned repeatedly before the alpha even started.
https://forums.stardock.com/449101/page/1/#replies
This thread was one of the earliest, and Frogboy has a reply in it stating:
I don't know why they're not fixing it, I was expecting them to solve the make-work problem a long time ago.
I'll add my name here just to increase the numbers complaining about constructor spam. What I find most interesting is the lack of posters defending it. Fingers crossed on persuading the devs
+1 I would like to have another system for upgrading starbases.
I think that it's a good idea to have sponsoring from planets/mining starbases or using their own production (for mining starbase).
The constructors can be used alternatively in order to speed up the construction of a starbase (e.g: for deep space starbases)
I like constructors. It's not a popular opinion in this particular thread, but there it is.
I understand reducing managment load, but some of the suggestions go way too far in my opinion. But it is very interesting discussion.
None of it seems to address the delay factor inherent in a constructor economy, the time it takes for goods to get from one place to another. It's bad enough we are allowed to insta-upgrade ships in deep space. Part of the overall flavor of GalCiv is that distance plays a major factor in all considerations. The shipyard involved (and I think this should all be shipyard based) matters both in how productive it is and how distant it is. I don't see how that delay is represented in any sponsorship concepts.
Add my signature to the petition.
I just don't like Spam
@erischild there are 2 ways ive seen mentioned that can represent the delivery delay
1) a limit of building one module per turn
this is quite a bit slower then the current system where you can build as many modules as you have constructors for ( with few exceptions)
2) reduction based on distance similar to how the shipyards currently work.
In my planet sponsorship idea, you would simply add manufacturing costs to each module, the equivalent of a construction ship. The time factor of space travel, is represented by the Decay equation of production being sent to the StarBase.
Tweak either the decay equation (just for bases) or the Manufacturing cost of each module as you see fit to achieve the desired time/cost. You could then even start valuing different modules from each other, making the better improvements take longer to build, as our glorious developers see fit.
Yes.
The biggest problem under the current system isn't that it involves large numbers of constructors or that "Starbases everywhere!" is the intended design - though the first isn't great and the second is debatable. The real problem is that this is combined with a need for the player to babysit every step of the process.
What I need to make this work as a player is not "Request Constructor" on each starbase.
What I need to make this work as a player is a galaxy-screen command to say "Hey, Governor - build me a starbase of THIS type at THAT location", and the governor takes care of the whole process for me. They order the constructors, they deal with the module selection when each one arrives, and so on. I don't need to deal with it anymore unless I really, really want to.
If that function allows me to define a custom starbase build (because maybe I do or don't want marketplaces or beam weapons or whatnot at a specific one, or I want the defenses built before the functional stuff), so much the better, but right now I'd happily settle for just being able to say "Build me a MILITARY/CULTURE/ECON/MINING starbase right THERE!"
I am totally against any automation (à la Endless Universe or the other games that have been mentioned as examples in this or some other threads, because, all these games are RTS and I don't see how they compare to a TBS game anyway...)
Usually one diverts MP to constructors when there's no immediate military threat. For this, the AIs have to pursue a military conquest more aggressively, more early, perhaps some suitable race could be coded to rushstorm its neighbours etc. Then it won't be possible to fill up the whole map with literally thousands of starbases because the AI will force you to muster instead military ships.
Traditionally, building starbases was only an option when your own military already was sufficient to, at least, be able to defend your territory. Even then, it is usually better to still invets into additional military and simply annex adjacent planets/systems because that will increase ones own production, too, as well as *decreasing* your opponents production (something starbases can't do).
This is just my two cents worth. But the easiest way to fix this issue just be able to put more modules on a constructor. A maximum of 4 would completely simplify Starbase building. this will eliminate any setbacks with the build. I think the Devs have made it quite clear that they are not going to change because this is the way they want it. it will be up to the modders. In fact there could be improvement techs, to shrink the modules or include it with another shrinking tech.
I do completely agree, that starbase building is just hindering gameplay with micro-management.
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