...must be changed. At the moment you can upgrade any ship in the deep space. This should be change in that way that an upgrade is only possible if the ship is in near(!) range (3-5 hexes) of a starbase or shipyard.
In addition tech improvements (like movement) should also be not automaticly added to any ship in the deep space.
At the moment this upgrade issue is lunatic
The devs considered forcing people to go back to a starbase to upgrade early in design, but decided that the players would revolt if they changed a long standing mechanic like that.
And they're right. We would have.
Not only is it Unfun to do that, especially on larger maps with hundreds of ships far from home, it would encourage the worst sort of "constructor spam" that some folks already vocally complain about. Why? Because I think it would become an accepted practice to tote along a constructor with all fleets that would just plop down an instant starbase/shipyard and get around that restriction that way. I think most people would consider that a far better alternative than to wait 10 to 20 turns for your ships to come back from the middle of nowhere.
The devs game balance solution is that it takes more money and more time to upgrade your ships the further it is away from a starbase/shipyard. That seems to be an acceptable compromise to me.
Ship upgrading, along with most ship functions, are fairly tedious at the moment.Adding to the busywork likely won't help.Granted, I'm not sure how I would go about making ship upgrading "exciting", but hey, we can at least avoid "more tedious".
You dont need to "go back" for upgrades. Your fleet can also have some constructure-ships so you can build shipyards when ever you will. They should also be a restriction that a shipyard/starbase can only upgrade 1 or 2 ships per turn.
I think most people would consider that a far better alternative than to wait 10 turns for your ships to come back from the middle of nowhere
Nobody who plans an attack in advance would sent ships "MK1" to the front and then return the ships to upgrade to "MK2" and then sent back to the front.
This gameplay would get more stratagem if the upgrade is only possible at shipyards.
However, the DEV team should consider to add a gameplay option where the players can decide how the upgrade issue should be handled. More customizing is better.
At the moment this upgrade mechanism is "childish"
How so?
I said as much in my post. But I absolutely guarantee that will invite complaints about spamming starbases. Plus it will also invite complaints about how "realistic" it is for a shipyard 100 tiles away from its sponsor being able to upgrade anything at all with a few meager production points. Which will, in turn... Well, you get the idea.
Basically I tend to think this whole thing is a solution looking for a problem that doesn't really exist in the first place.
After all, what good is "range" if concepts like being able to supply a ship or upgrade it is not included? If you force a ship to go back to a port to upgrade, why not force it to do the same after every battle, since they used up their weapons? Or why not make them go back home when they run out of fuel? Why should ships have unlimited move, anyway? Shouldn't a ship be forced to go back home to restock after a while? Why even have range as a concept if one doesn't get any benefit from it at all and ships are forced to go back to a friendly port all of the time?
And so on and so on and so on.
In case anyone is wondering, this same issue was raised in the Beta for either GC1 or GC2 (perhaps both). The conclusion that the users would revolt was reached then as well, and the idea was rejected then.
And, IMO, they reached the correct conclusion.
I think I didnt made the point clear at the first place:
At the moment I can "bullshit" this game if I play multiplayer. This issue is therefore NEW for this game because the multiplayer option is NEW:
If I play multiplayer i will play like this: Spaming lowcost ships - low maintance and production costs - and when the moment is right I upgrade them. That means flying with a "biplanes" in the first stage of the game and - suddenly- my biplanes becoming "DEATHSTARS". The current upgrade mode can be used as a glitch.
Upgrading is going to cost a lot* though (right now it is turned off in the beta), which will minimize that greatly. And, besides, it's only a 'glitch' if both sides can't do it. Paraphrasing one of the things Lead Designer Paul Boyer has often said, he doesn't mind if things are exploitable as long as everyone can exploit things equally.
More to the point, whenever one is upgrading outside of one's ZOC, it will take a minimum of two turns. Usually longer. So while you are upgrading your 'biplanes', I'll send over a pea shooter and destroy your suddenly undefended ships (presuming ships are still defenseless whilst upgrading). And even if they're not, I'm going to presume I can take out your so-called biplane with little difficultly if my ships are even a little bit better.
* I actually think upgrade costs are WAY too out of whack (as inn they are far too expensive), especially compared to GC II, but that's an argument for another thread,
What Buck said
This issue is therefore NEW for this game because the multiplayer option is NEW:
I remember heated discussions about how you wouldn't have to redesign any core concepts to make a single player game handle multplayer. As one of those stick-in-the-mud single player people, I have to raise this point. You are fixing a problem that does not exist in my version of the game.
As far as multiplayer goes, if all opponents can do rush buying of ship upgrades, isn't that still an equal playing field? I am not sure I see it as a big problem in multiplayer if everybody has the same replicator technology.
For another point, as I remember, ships are helpless while upgrading, sometimes for several turns. There is a significant tradeoff if you risk losing all your ships before they finish upgrading. Killing little ships before they finish upgrading to big ships can lose you both the ships and the upgrade money.
Edit: This is mostly what Buck said better. I had the reply window open and got distracted playing the game. Didn't see the already excellent response.
If you add loads of micro management to ship upgrading, I am going to get my pitchfork out!
I have to agree. I don't think the idea of making maintaining and upgrading your fleet more labor intensive sounds fun, even if it is "realistic." In fact, the current system allows for some interesting tactics. In many of my games I build ships I call skeletons with nothing on them but engines and life support if necessary. I can quickly move these ships just behind my front lines, then upgrade them to the ships I need and send them into battle. As long as the cost of upgrading is high enough, this is a nice trade of efficiency for flexibility. I really think all upgrading needs is some balance tweaks, not any fundamental changes.
Perhaps the best compromise is to require a scaled number of turns to upgrade depending on distance from a shipyard. The process of sending out parts and so forth would remain abstracted. Decide on a appropriate speed for the parts ships and set the turns accordingly (Maybe your best current engine speed). So a ship 100 turns away from a shipyard might take 10 turns to upgrade. No more micro than current, and a difficult decision for the player on whether to immobilize a ship for the upgrade. Of course the upgrade could be broken at any time to allow ship movement/combat, but then one has to start over.
To an extent, I thought it already was. When close to a shipyard it takes one turn. A bit farther away it takes 2 turns. Much farther away it takes 3 turns. I have not seen it take 4 turns yet, but perhaps I have not upgraded a ship far enough away to see it happen. This is on an immense galaxy.
Also, IIRC, on GC1 and GC2, the further away you were from your territory the longer upgrades took.
To an extent, I thought it already was. When close to a shipyard it takes one turn. A bit farther away it takes 2 turns. Much farther away it takes 3 turns. I have not seen it take 4 turns yet, but perhaps I have not upgraded a ship far enough away to see it happen. This is on an immense galaxy.Also, IIRC, on GC1 and GC2, the further away you were from your territory the longer upgrades took.
Yes, but what I was trying to imply was that the scaling be much more serious than it is now, i.e., something on the scale of how long it would take your a moderately fast ship to get there. You shouldn't be able to upgrade in 2 turns if it takes 15 turns for, say, a fast freighter to get there. Just an idea.
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