Edit 12/21/14
Since this thread has gotten more attention than I expected and has been revived several times I thought I should update with my thoughts on how the game has progressed.
When I preordered this game I was hoping for improvements to the gameplay of GalCiv2 not just GalCiv2 with larger maps which is what it seems to be at this point but I did pay to get into the beta and give feedback so here goes. Edit: When I say this I'm not saying there aren't any improvements to 3 over 2 just that it plays very similarly and has the same feel. This can be seen as good and bad, my issue is that while there are a lot of improvements the problems as I see them are still intact.
General game play issues:
Colony management, while I like the bonus tile/adjacency system in theory it doesn't really work well in practice. I tend to build the same things on every planet and most of the specialty buildings fall by the wayside with few exceptions that I build on large worlds. Why even bother with colony management beyond using the production wheel for optimization. The placement of tiles on most worlds aren't very good for optimization anyway so in practice it just doesn't work well and doesn't end up giving the player a meaningful choice. Edit: This has improved since I first posted, diminishing returns on population contribution to production means building farms is an actual choice now and brings the adjacency system into clearer focus. Regarding unique improvements, I'm not sure if I missed the global bonuses from things like the Galactic Showcase and Entertainment Capital but I think all unique builds should act like that. I know the Hyperion Shrinker's tool tip says that you have more space on ships built from that planet. This makes no sense as you can't really use that. The Hyperion Logistics building while useful can cause problems when merging fleets with ships that are build on other planets. Personally I prefer my fleets to be fairly uniform so I know what they can take on.
I've participated in a few discussions about aspects of this and most players in the beta like the system but it completely breaks my enjoyment of the game for me that I can't build all of my toys on all of my worlds and that huge populations are required. One of those discussions I mentioned earlier was about building farms not being fun, I say this because its a false choice, because you have to have that huge population to be productive. Edit: Addressed.
Combat: I know combat isn't in the game yet but that I can't control my ships in combat will always bother me. That combat is effectively rock, paper, scissors further bothers me. At least give me something that gives me a tactical choice in the resolution of combat. Like shields and armor are effective against all weapon types but with point defense tech I can just my guns and lasers against missiles too but missiles fire from further out and guns are laid out in devastating broadsides and lasers are more effective point defense weapons. Something more than, my opponent is using missile/PD ships so I'll build laser/PD ships. This is another game breaker for me. Edit: This seems to have been addressed but I haven't really tried it out much as my attempts to play the Yor didn't work out well and my games playing the Iridium since Beta 2 have been pretty peaceful. I tend to play live and let live but once someone declares war on my I destroy them as I tend to enjoy the building aspect of the game and everyone is too nice while diplomacy is being tested. Not a complaint, observation on part of the testing process.
Research: While I appreciate a large tech tree the way it is implemented at this stage is just boring. If I could queue up research jumping from tree to tree it would be tolerable but most things are just an incremental bonuses and I never get excited about getting a new tech. There are a few things that completely kill it for me, that I have to research each and every treaty when I researched a universal translator after I encountered other races drives me nuts. All of the races in GalCiv have a very similar view of the universe this just makes no sense. I could see it if different races implemented treaties differently but its all the same. Edit: This is much the same, I appreciate that each race has some special stuff and there are some things moved around it play much the same and I'd like a bit more creativity if possible.
Terraforming: That planets are improved for life one tile at a time makes no sense and just bugs the crap out of me. Just put terraforming as a single tech that allows you to build a building that slowly improves the planet to be earthlike and adds usable terrain in increments. Or just scrap the whole tile system and allow terraformers to make the planet more habitable allowing higher populations. Edit: Still the same but can be modded later.
Multiplayer:
There are 2 issues I see for multiplayer, the first is asynchronous turns. That player 1 has to finish his turn before player 2 can go just makes the game take that much longer to play and most people won't sit staring intently at the screen for their turn to start will just make it worse. Edit: I haven't had a chance to play multiplayer yet but I can accept simultaneous planning and sequential execution.
Second is micromanagement. That periodically throughout the game you will unlock new tiles and buildings that you will have to go to every planet to build then when it finishes build what you want there will further slow down the game. If Stardock creates truly outstanding governors that won't be much of an issue but I have yet to see an AI I trust to build the colony I want built. Edit: Pretty much the same, worse with the Yor.
I'm pretty much done already, the game frustrates me more than I enjoy it and it seems most players in the beta like the game as it is or prefer the direction its heading. I don't expect this rant to change much if anything in the game design as most players seem to like where the game is going but at this point I may just wait for Stardock to reboot the franchise before buying another GalCiv game. Edit: The ability to mod just about anything, that things are still being implemented and feedback does seem to be listened to have kept me paying attention.
"Not sure why you feel your opinion is more important than others"
Didn't say that.
Apologies if that was not what you meant, but that is how the line below read to me.
I, for one, certainly hope the rest of the tech tree remains to be added in, because at the moment, it feels like half is missing, and its a pell-mell rush to the end of the tree long before terraforming is over.
charon2112: Everyone needs to realize that probably 65% of the game isn't even in yet. The release game will be very different than this early beta.
I said the same thing about Elemental. It only took two free expansions and an extra year (or more) of development for them to release something approaching the game they were promising right around this stage of development.
"I said the same thing about Elemental. It only took two free expansions and an extra year (or more) of development for them to release something approaching the game they were promising right around this stage of development."
It's because of the Elemental disaster that I have faith they won't make that mistake ever again.
I like the idea of being able to terraform from the beginning of the game with the terraforming techs reducing the cost. I think this brings terraforming more in line with how it would really work. Humans have been doing minor terraforming on Earth for thousands of years, we have plans to terraform Mars but will take decades to hundred or more years to complete but as we grow we would be able to speed up the process. So colonizing Mars early building the few items you can then spending a year of game time or more to get the next tile isn't unreasonable to me and shouldn't disrupt the balance or pacing of the game much if at all. I would say more than 3 years game time to get the next tile would be a bit much though.
Honestly for the rest of your suggestions I'm not a big fan. The star port production can be "returned" by lowering the amount allocated to military from the planetary production queue and the rest is mainly more micromanagement. Also the higher upkeeps you talk about will probably be taken care of when diminishing returns on population contribution to production is implemented and that will probably take into account the size of the planet. @Stardock If the size of the planet is not currently planned to be taken into consideration with diminishing returns I suggest taking a look at it.
When diminishing returns is implemented this will likely remove one of my complaints, that being building farms isn't really a choice at this point. I look forward to seeing how that plays out although I still say it should be abstracted into the colony itself and this would essentially work the same for the Yor as well, though for the Yor it would be workers building more Yor rather than farming. As it stands the Yor would still need power plants or something to sustain them and rather than the hospital a creche factory, different name but same purpose.
I still seem to be in the minority on this but I can't be the only one that is bothered by I can't fully use my home planet until the age of ascension. Could I get an option at least to have half of the expansion tiles at the start of the game rather than having to wait until late game to fully use my home planet, applies to all factions of course.
+1 on Simultaneous Multiplayer.
Also this game needs the option to set difficulty levels per "human" player, not just per AI. When playing with friends I have a lot of experience with the galciv series but some of my friends don't, this leads to unequal game play.
I'd ask the developers to keep the asynchronous turns or at least provide both that system and simultaneous MP as options. Asynchronous turns are necessary for hotseat multiplayer, one of the features I really, really, really want to be implemented, either at release or via patch/expansion/DLC. Simultaneous turns have been a bane to that playstyle for years in 4X games and have been cited my multiple developers as the reason why they could not add hotseat multiplayer to their games (Endless Space comes to mind).
So while I feel sympathy for the people who want simultaneous turns in MP, please keep asynchronous turns as an option. PBEM is already a planned feature, hotseat really can't be very resource intensive to implement if you already have that MP mode planned.
The issue for me is two fold.How predictable the game plays.How repetitive the same actions are with no thought involved, thought is crucial and more weight needs to be given to every decision, with more consequences.
Techs:
The number of techs isn't the problem, it's the frequency of them. Slow down tech pacing and you'll not only have a longer game but also make each discovery more meaningful.Though I do agree, some of those % numbers, should be actual techs not just bonuses.
Planets:
I would partially agree with planets in this regard too, only we get to tweak their frequency already.
So a simple concept, have a tweak to planet titles in the starting game screen. Bonus tiles to each planet, -5 to +5 (or more), with a slight decrease in overall planet availability (1 step down abundant becoming common, common becoming occasional etc ), with one higher setting added past abundant for those who liked all the old options.
Fun:
Random events will help make the game more fun when they get here. - Including invasions or rebellions. I am hoping for example, for another dimension aka moo2, with a few simple star clusters which can appear.
AI's need more personality, and different playstyles, so we have to play differently against the different races. This runs all the way through them from their dialogue, through to their behavior at a strategic level.Also of course the more AI empires there are, for me, the more interesting and unpredictable the games become. This is why I am looking forward to really large scale games, and think that will bring the 4x experience I always dreamed of . Space empires IV for example was great with, what was it 20 players? A modern game with 50+ players will be amazingly unpredictable.
Diplomacy: Needs more factors, to make games more unpredictable.I said ideology in one thread, but there are many other possibilities. Others have said for example, recently flipped a planet, being a negative modifier against who you took it from. Another obvious one from the old games is, mega power. If you are over-dominant as a superpower, other races might resent you and try to band together. If you are tiny, diplomatic neighbors who like you might try to make you a proxy state or give you limited autonomy under their control rather than wipe you out.Rebellions within a faction, so you have two of them, the old empire and the rebels. Rebellions which you can help start up.I've argued the multiple UP or large multi-alliance angle to death in the other thread, this would add another multi-alliance area of diplomacy. If this doesn't fly, then just as the name reads multi alliances, space empires V tried it and failed but perhaps the galciv team can do better they did great when it was based around ideologies in previous titles.Trading factions might dislike you if you are out trading them.
Warlike factions might dislike (disrespect) you if you are always at peace. The opposite for diplomatic factions. <- This can be done by ideology or this method if people prefer. Warlike factions should require breathing room, and get a negative mod on their neighbors when they run out of space. When I start next to the dregin, I REALLY want to think holy hell I'm next to the drengin.
Don't forget you can make your own, so that you can have 100 faction games. Also minor races arent in yet either. They just like city states in civ 5 add another layer to the game.
Yes, and that will help a lot, as in one of my points there.
But I wrote factors , not merely just factions.
Of course very large scale games, though insane, sound very attractive, superficially.
But I think there almost inevitably has to be a problem when there are a LOT of AI factions. As in Civ, it is almost inevitable that some faction will snowball while they are completely out of reach. (With 99 AI opponents there will be many more than one, I suppose.) Which should make the game practically impossible to win as a single player, assuming each empire starts out roughly even.
If it is possible for the AI to ally with each other as the human player can with other factions, it is even worse.
Which makes sense --- if you are one out of a hundred, what should your chances be, even if you are smarter than the AI. So if somebody did win such a game, it would have to be a real freak.
Or maybe I am just missing something.
It's fine if I don't win, as long as a cool story plays out during the game
I -want- the Ai to ally against me/Stronger Ais just like I sometimes do with them. That goes double for very large maps when an allow can mean income /resources . I especially want to see it happen during the mopup. The Ai should say things like $race just genocided $other race & moved on to attack $yetanotherrace.
If victory takes thousands of turns & a significant amount of diplomacy, influence, trade, and combat to varying degrees at varying points in time to keep from being treated like an aggressive warlord/terrorist leader/cultural destroyer all the better.
Personally I think 100 AI empires is going to be hard to run in a long game because of the memory required if 6 empires is topping 4 gigs, let's assume 12 will be around 8 and so on (though I doubt its going to be as much as double). If we get 30 - 50 playing comfortably I will be ecstatic, even more so if its moddable so as hardware gets better, we can just add more.
Back to the point, rather than just the player snowballing, several AI opponents will be there to challenge you.That is the reason I enjoy these big 4x games, like space empires IV, or the paradox CK or EU series, the challenge. They will of course be challenging themselves too , so it's not an us vs them mentality, unless you are really unlucky and all the AI empires are friends.
My bigger concern with a 100 ai game would be the end game micro management. Imagine your winning, have hundreds of planets under your control, man the governors had better be good or thats gonna be hell.
I have to agree about the micro, its bad enough mid to late game when you have dozens of planets and get a new terraforming tech. This is one of the reasons I want terrafomers to be something along the lines of you build a terraforming platform on an tile that will open up but hasn't yet and over years the planet becomes Earth-like with more tiles opening up as time goes by. Have this in 3 tiers, one habitable to Earth-like, Earth-like to paradise and extreme to habitable off the extreme planet line. The Yor would just care about more tiles not Earth like so adjust theirs so the planets move from Earth-like to extreme but have more usable tiles.
Regardless of the AI numbers, just the big galaxies we have now will lead to a lot of planets. I tend to like the idea of universal planetary build queues which I just had.
When you've got your first main dozen colonies up, and you are colonizing your 20th planet, already we could use them.
One possibly way to implement them. A Planetary design screen, when you can create several custom queues that you just set planets to build. But what if it's got less than 12 tiles, then it just builds the first 6, or 8. This won't be the most efficient way of doing it, but it will allow you quick and custom control of planets, with hopefully some intelligent choice by the queue in using the bonus squares, even if the positioning won't always be the best. (Like any AI player, this would borrow from that)You'd set a small industrial queue up, and a large industrial queue up. You'd set a heavy influence planet, a research planet, or a jack of all trades planet queue.
I am thinking (well as always when I say that caution is in order) that a huge page file should be sufficient to handle a big game. If 8 gb is enough a dozen AIs then a 64 gb page file would allow about a 100. I don't think 100 is out of reach at all, unless I am all wet, of course. Rather the issue will be that the alien turns will take a while. And perhaps getting the AI to be relatively as intelligent on a big map might be a much bigger issue than on a small map, because of the enormously larger number of possibilities for diplomacy (especially trading).
I reallly hope that big maps will be workable though, sounds like a lot of fun, and as has been mentioned, whether one wins or not isn't really the issue, it's whether the journey is fun.
(... I am going down, dang it, but I am taking out the $%^& Drengin first!!)
In the dev stream they've talked about as each round of larger maps comes in they make more optimization improvements as well. Hopefully by the time they have the largest map size in the game will run much more efficiently than it does now. I assume by the time they are implementing dozens to 100 factions to a map it will run about as fast as it does now for all of those factions. At worst most of what's happened will be off screen so at least it won't have to render it.
You do realize how long you will be waiting for each turn if its updating a 64gb page file. It would be do your turn, walk away, 10 minutes later do your turn again...
That is what I was trying to say in the above, perhaps not emphasized enough, true.
@kestistw: that is what I hope also, but I was trying to suggest that even in the worst case it is not implausible to think that 100 factions is do-able. I think the devs have been pretty optimistic as well.
That is what I was trying to say in the above, perhaps not emphasized enough, true.@kestistw: that is what I hope also, but I was trying to suggest that even in the worst case it is not implausible to think that 100 factions is do-able. I think the devs have been pretty optimistic as well.
I don't know about you guys but i plan to have one long epic game going that might last a month, and a few short games in between. The long epic game will be my version of a campaign.
I was thinking whatever the biggest galaxy size winds up being, with rare habitable planets, and probably 20 or so races as my first real game to see how that works out. Then start tweaking numbers, planet distribution, etc from there.
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