Project origins
There was some discussion on the Steam forums as to how to get an update to GalCiv 2 out there.
Draginol popped in and suggested that an update incorporating the expertise of the fanbase would be the best way forward. A bugfixing update would soon be on the way.
I sent a message to the other tech tree modders, and luckily secured the assistance of Gaunathor, and later MabusAltarn, as well as some dedicated members of the community who posted some valuable feedback. They have been instrumental to the success of the community update, and I'm glad to have played a small part along the way.
Progress report
The community update has been released as part of a rollout of Stardock products on GOG.com and is also available as an opt-in beta on Steam!
Downloads and links
Issues which can't be fixed with XML manipulation.
The file archive folder, hosted by MabusAltarn.
The list of bugs which can't be fixed with XML manipulation.
The spreadsheet of data changes, hosted by MabusAltarn.
Initial discussion on Steam forums
Credits for community member and Stardock staff involvement
Gaunathor - Tech tree changes, descriptions and standardisation. AI value adjustment. Planetary improvement changes and fixes. Keeper of the change logs, spreadsheet and file archive.
MarvinKosh - Typo and description changes (English.str, Techtree.xml). Additional spreadsheet analysis.
DARCA1213 - Tech descriptions.
MabusAltarn - UI changes, tech tree changes, AI value adjustment, keeper of the file archive, spreadsheet and change logs.
Maiden666 - Suggestions for improvement (technology victory bonuses).
OShee - tech descriptions.
SiliasOfBorg - tech descriptions.
Frogboy - executable code changes.
You are completely correct about the farms but they could also be fixed using the UpgradeTarget fix.
The only issue I see with using the UpgrateTarget fix is this. One, the Dregin/Korath get IndustrialRevolution which just feels a bit out of place in their tree. Minor issue, and Social Production has to be set to 0 for them. Also, they'll get the Entertainment Network if that tech is moved to IndustrialRevolution. Again, can be fixed usign the UpgradeTarget fix.
That just leaves the Krynn with Entertainment Network vs Law of Krynn. That's a problem.
However, consider this.
To give the Dregin/Kortath farms in this scenario you need them to start with IndustrialRevolution. That means altering RaceConfig.XML. Well, if that's the case we might as well go a tiny bit further.
Here's what I propose:
IMO this is the cleanest solution as it doesn't rely on UpgradeTarget to work (I have no doubt it works, that's beside the point) and fixes the issue with the Krynn starting with the Entertainment Network. It also resoves the (minor) isssue that players will see a Basic Factory in their Old tab when playing the Drengin or Korath and the same applies to the Drath/Altarians.
The new techs can follow up on the old Starting Tech branch. Given the low cost and high AIValue the impact of any techs lacking due to old .RaceconfigXML files will be minimal.
* If I'm not mistaken you were already in the process of making this happen.
You can easily set it to 0. It works.
Except in the vanilla game because there the history techs are labelled "ImpossibleTech" and are cancelled out during the creation of the tree. But in the CU they're labelled "none" so that doesn't occur.
I'll need to re-test this to confirm it but last time I checked setting a cost of zero on a tech marks it as researched but you don't actually get the benefit of the technology. It's been a while, though and it might be related to ImpossibleTech as you mentioned.
Just assign 1 food to any farming structure, and decrease its percentage bonus by 10%. This way farms can be recognized by the AI as such, he won't queue more than 3, and the boost from bonus-tiles is greatly handicapped.
That is an excellent idea.
If we make changes to the RaceConfig.xml, then the *.raceconfigxml of the players become outdated. Depending on the changes, this may brake the race, because it doesn't start with the techs it's supposed to have, or starts with techs it no longer should have, etc.
I don't know. This would make it harder to tell at a glance how much a farm would increase the pop-cap. Just using a percentage bonus alone made it difficult enough. Not everybody knows that the game drops fractions during calculations. Changing the farms to provide a maximum of 3 food, while making sure that the AI only researches up to 2 food, would reduce the overpopulation threat of the bonus-tiles enough, in my opinion.
PlanetImprovements.xmlTraditional Factory: changed UpgradeTarget from None to MinorBasicFactoryMinor Traditional Factory: changed InternalName to MinorBasicFactoryResearch Lab: changed UpgradeTarget from None to MinorBasic LabMinor Research Lab: changed InternalName to MinorBasic LabMarket Center: changed UpgradeTarget from None to MinorMarket CenterMinor Market Center: changed InternalName to MinorMarket CenterEntertainment Network: changed UpgradeTarget from None to MinorEntertainmentNetwork, changed TechRequirement from Innovative History to EntertainmentNetworkremoved Entertainment Network (Arcean and Korx)Minor Entertainment Network: changed InternalName to MinorEntertainmentNetworkBasic Farm: changed UpgradeTarget from None to MinorBasicFarm, changed TechRequirement to BasicFarmremoved Slave FarmMinor Farm: changed InternalName to MinorBasicFarmre-added Fertility Clinic (?)Aphrodisiac: changed TechRequirement from Fertility Acceleration to Xeno Medicine (?)Festival of Capitalism: changed TechRequirement from XenoMercantilism to A history of Mercantilism (A History of Mercantilism would otherwise not do anything)
RaceConfig.xmlTerran Alliance: added Entertainment Networks and Basic Farms as starting techsDrengin Empire: added Basic Farms as starting techAltarian Resistance: added Basic Farms as starting techArcean Empire: added Entertainment Networks and Basic Farms as starting techsDominion of Korx: added Entertainment Networks and Basic Farms as starting techsDrath Legion: added Basic Farms as starting techThalan Empire: changed Pop-Growth from -50% to -30%, removed Xeno Biology and Xeno Medicine from starting techsKorath Clan: added Basic Farms as starting techKrynn Consulate: added Basic Farms as starting tech
TechTree.xml4D Phasing: changed Cost from 3500 to 1500Dimensional Exploitation: changed Cost from 1500 to 3500Xeno Biology: changed PopulationGrowthAbility from 10% to 5%Fertility Acceleration: changed Description from "Increases our fertility rate." back to "Enables construction of Fertility Clinics.", changed Details from "These new drugs will enable us to reproduce at a greater rate." back to "These Fertility Clinics will enable us to find ways to reproduce at a greater rate.", changed PopulationGrowthAbility from 25% to 10%removed Xeno Colonization and Alien Soil Studiesadded Entertainment Networks: <Culture ID="EntertainmentNetwork"> <DisplayName>Entertainment Networks</DisplayName> <Description>Entertainment for the masses.</Description> <Details>Soap operas, talk shows, and, most importantly, reality TV. What more could you ask for in life?</Details> <Category>Entertainment</Category> <Cost>0</Cost> <Group>None</Group> <AIValue>500</AIValue> <Model>event50</Model> <Requires>?</Requires> <CanBeTraded>0</CanBeTraded> <CanBeStolen>0</CanBeStolen> <WillingnessToTrade>0</WillingnessToTrade> </Culture>added Basic Farms <Biology ID="BasicFarm"> <DisplayName>Basic Farms</DisplayName> <Description>?</Description> <Details>?</Details> <Category>Biology</Category> <Cost>0</Cost> <Group>None</Group> <AIValue>500</AIValue> <Model>event50</Model> <Requires>?</Requires> <CanBeTraded>0</CanBeTraded> <CanBeStolen>0</CanBeStolen> <WillingnessToTrade>0</WillingnessToTrade> </Biology>
Altarian_TechTree.xmladded Basic Farms
Arcean_TechTree.xmladded Entertainment Networks and Basic Farms
Drath_TechTree.xmladded Basic Farms
Drengin_TechTree.xmladded Basic Farms
Korath_TechTree.xmlXeno Biology: added <PopulationGrowthAbility>10</PopulationGrowthAbility> (Corrupted Genetics is supposed to still give a 10% bonus)added Basic Farms
Korx_TechTree.xmladded Entertainment Networks and Basic Farms
Krynn_TechTree.xmladded Basic Farms
Terran_TechTree.xmladded Entertainment Networks and Basic Farms
Thalan_TechTree.xmlSoil Enhancement: changed Requires from AlienSoilStudies to Xeno MedicineXeno Biology: added the following <DisplayName>Xeno Colonization</DisplayName> <Description>Increases population growth.</Description> <Details>The planets in the galaxy are truly alien to our species. When the colonization fleet entered this space-time, we had overlooked a number of key factors that in hindsight should have been obvious. For one thing, our species has had little experience dealing with the surface of worlds. In our time, in a dying universe, the ability to exist on the surface of planets in an unprotected environment is unthinkable. As a result, none of our equipment is well suited for being used in an untamed environment.||Xeno Colonization begins the process of adapting our equipment and strategies to working on untamed planets. As a result, our population growth will increase by 10%.</Details> <Cost>300</Cost> <Requires>PlanetaryAdaptation</Requires> <PopulationGrowthAbility>10</PopulationGrowthAbility> <CanBeTraded>0</CanBeTraded> <CanBeStolen>0</CanBeStolen> <WillingnessToTrade>0</WillingnessToTrade>Xeno Medicine: added the following <DisplayName>Alien Soil Studies</DisplayName> <Description>Increases population growth.</Description> <Details>Now that we have begun to colonize planets, we are quickly discovering that we are not adapted to the various kinds of bacteria and fungi that exists on different plants. While we are inoculated against most diseases carried by animals and planets, we did not take into account the kinds of bacteria that exist in the soils. Alien Soil Studies will decrease our sensitivity to the bacteria we come across. This will improve our population growth rating by 10%.</Details> <Cost>500</Cost> <CanBeTraded>0</CanBeTraded> <CanBeStolen>0</CanBeStolen> <WillingnessToTrade>0</WillingnessToTrade>removed Xeno Colonization and Alien Soil Studies
Yor_TechTree.xmlXeno Medicine: removed PopulationGrowthAbility (Spark of Life is supposed to give the same bonus as regular Xeno Medicine)Fertility Acceleration: changed PopulationGrowthAbility from 30 to 15
I'm sure there was a reason behind it but as far as I can tell Minor techs are Copy&Paste from regular techs and structures. Why not use those? You can safely change minors, their data isn't stored in .RACECONFIGXML files.
Aphrodisiac: changed TechRequirement from Fertility Acceleration to Xeno Medicine (?)Xeno Medicine is rather cheap to get a trade good from. Wasn't Aphrodisiac orginally unlocked by Habitat Improvement? (Can't check right now). I'd leave it on Fertility Acceleration and put the Fertility Clinic under it as well.
Otherwise, looks good to me.
Looks good.
Entertainment network
I like the description. Requirement depends on which starting tech is last in line. This may vary race to race. I'd set the cost to 5 though.
Basic Farms
Description: Makes food. Nuff said.Details: Makes food. Nuff said.Requires: Whatever's last in lineI'd make the cost 5 so it is in line with the rest of the starting tech.
Because any tech that is flagged as unique to a major race gets removed from the Minor Race tech tree. For example, in a match between Arceans and Drengin, the techs Industrial Revolution and Traditional Research (among many others) will be flagged as unique to the Arceans, and the Minors won't have access to them. Still, the Minor versions of Industrial Revolution and so on are a bit superfluous. We could simply remove them, and change the requirement of the improvements to A Minor History. Same result with less techs.
Yes, it was originally unlocked by Habitat Improvement. That also meant that it was available to all races. Right now, Aphrodisiac is only available to races with Fertility Acceleration, which aren't many. Moving it to Xeno Medicine is meant to fix that, while using a more appropriate tech. As for the tech cost to get a TG, Diplomatic Translators are even cheaper to get (175 vs 225) and Gravity Accelerators only require a little more (300 vs 225).
I'll keep Aphrodisiac on Fertility Acceleration for now.
Okay, here are the update files and the new changelog.
but this is an old hat, which didn't prevent doubling logistics or multiplying available distribution points by factor 10, or basically the rework of all stock racees setup.... now you propose a minor change and that then becomes a no-go? I guess most people know by now to clear out their files, which, if only a stock race is concerned, is easy enough because one only has to press clear+save.
yeah it looks clunky, but 3 food? so you need 2 times the amount of farms to be able to build your planets out? that is a heavy nerfing of farms.
in vanilla you either just built a single 7mt food = 15b ppl on low tile-planets (~up PQ 10) or 2*6mt for 20b ppl on higher PQ planets (which required add. VLCs) and then the rest for Stocks. The purpose of going high-pop is usually to set up an econ-world, so you don't want to waste too many tiles on farms.
Also, if the AI only has 2mt farms at hand, and maximally builds 3, then you've balanced the non-occurrence of a rare superpop world against the fact that now the AI will have only 14b ppl worlds at max. Not saying now that this level of pop isn't reasonable, but they have to waste 3 tiles for this and are not even at the same level than the CivCap. It's a waste of tiles IMO. I never even considered to build the basic 2mt farms for that very reason.
I also wonder how the problem with Thala could be solved. If you have a food-bonus tile there it might screw their game.
As for the clunkiness of mixing food + percentages. You just balance it out so that 3 medium farms give around 18b ppl, and a player only needs 2 endtier farms to come to the same level. A bonus tile will then make a planet be able ot swell beyond this, perhaps even to regions that are problematic - but at least the AI recognizes farms, and it'll only happen if the AI decides to build 3 of them. Thing is if a food-bonustile is there, and the AI enqueues a farm, he will put it firstly on that bonustile. And then can later decide if he wants more food or not. Just that in the vanilla game (if he put a 6/7 food on a 300% tile) then it already was too much with pop ranging around ~30b ppl whereas with the mixed approach it'll still be under 18b ppl for a sinlge endtier farm, and therefore, is manageable.
I know. I don't get it either.
I'm not so sure about that. If a veteran player like DMF still didn't know about it, then it's possible that others don't know about it either.
Well, farms have already been nerfed in the CU. At the moment, the best farm (Enhanced Xeno Farm) increases food by 50% (4mt), and the techs are set so the AI only researches Xeno Farm, which increases food by 40% (3mt). Okay, those two improvements have actually been buffed (+1 to both). However, Intensive Farming and Advanced Xeno Farm are no longer available, which is a nerf.
Yes, but that's a player-only thing. The AI doesn't use farms that way.
Limiting the AI to 2mt farms doesn't stop superpop worlds from occurring. If a planet has at least one food bonus tile, then there is a very good chance that the AI will use it. If there are two, then it's almost guaranteed that the AI will use both. Well, at least in case of the Iconians. So planets with a pop-cap of 16b, 20b, and 24b can and will still happen.
It's actually quite easy: remove the food from the Hyperion Matrix. In AT I've set the Capital back to a pop-cap of 16b, and I've never seen the AI build a single farm on it. Not the races starting out with farms, not the ones who need to research them first, and not the Thalan, if they get access to the techs from other races. That leaves only the Hyperion Matrix as a cause for overpopulation on Thala.
that's why I've been stressing the creation of a readme file. still, that could fail, not everyone is going to read that. to inform is still the best option since it'll also do good to a user that plays different mods.
The Food Distribution Center is also gone. Is this really a good approach? Because, from a player standpoint - farming becomes more & more irrelevant. All to better AI game development - which, ironically, is shunned out from using endtier farms - so the player definitely has an unfair advantage there.
Then what's the point of it at all? I don't get this logic here, because it has been you who promotes both changes, the first being that farms give proper food again - imposing the potential danger of bonustiles... and the second to generally nerf farming, and esp. AI farming to 2mt food to reduce the potential overpop threat...:
***
But this is changing the flavour of the game. Traditionally Thala has always been a planet with more pop than other CivCaps. That's what it's supposed to be, because Thalans were able to bring some of their future technology back in time, and they only have one planet to start with. That Matrix gave +8 food, more than any other food structure ingame. Just that the +50% moral is in no way enough to be able to fight off the moral dilemma of +24b ppl.
But in the current form of the CU, Thala still has 50% more pop than other CivCaps, the relation in % isn't changed. It's an elegant solution, the only downer is that CivCaps aren't so strong in pop in comparison to other colonies, but as I recall, the CivCap got buffed in other regions to compensate.
and just while I'm thinking over it...
so Iconians are able to use 3mt farms right from the start - which, as of now, is the maximum yield the AI can use under all trees.
and Yor have these farms and they give good moral as a bonus, as well.
while in the vanilla game, these farms were only mediocre - because there, 7mt food was the best. So the Iconians had a headstart while, in the long run, their farming was less efficient in endgame.
(on that note the same can be said about the designers approach to their moral structures...)
The same applies to Advanced Stalks if you directly compare their bonuses to the strength of Advanced Xeno Farms & VLCs.
seems like that the nerfbat just changed the relative strengths of some generic branches to other trees.... is that WAI?
Well, it wasn't that good to begin with. The only time it was better to use the FDC instead of a farm is when your pop-cap was at 28b+. Increasing the bonus might have helped, but it seemed a bit redundant after the farms were changed to use percentage bonuses too.
Personally, I'd say no. Players and the AI should play by the same rules, in my opinion. As far as possible, at least. However, what are we supposed to do in this case? The AI does have problems handling farms and morale improvement. We can't fix the underlying issue. The best thing we can do is mitigating the symptoms.
The move back to food production is to fix the issues the percentage bonuses caused in the behaviour of the AI. That's a necessity, in my opinion, because the move to percentage bonuses not only failed to achieve what it was meant to do (prevent overpopulation on AI planets), but made matters worse.
I only suggested nerfing the farms, because Mabus was worried about the consequences of going back to food production. It's not a change I personally agree with, but I have to work within the constraints set by Mabus. It wouldn't even technically be a nerf. Changing Xeno Farm to +2 food and Enhanced Xeno Farm to +3 food would bring them back to their original values.
Is it? The description of the Hyperion Matrix only states that it makes the planet it is build on "immensely powerful", while the corresponding tech says that it makes that planet "virtually unconquerable". No mention of increasing the food on the planet (though a planetary defense bonus seems appropriate). The recurring theme of the Thalan is their low number of population, which is reflected in their penalty to pop-growth and their lack of farms. To me, it only makes sense, if the Hyperion Matrix wouldn't increase food. It would further reinforce the theme.
Also, it wouldn't be the first time that the bonuses of an improvement got (radically) altered in the CU. Just look at the Propaganda Center, Secret Police Headquarters, Shrine of the Mithrilar, and the Shrine of Tandis, for example. In other words, the CU already changed the flavour of the game. What's one more change in the grand scheme of things? Especially when the lore would actually be in favour of it (or at least not contradicting it), and it would fix the overpopulation on Thala.
Increasing the bonus won't help. I've already tried that, and it caused massive approval issues on all the other planets. Especially at the start of the game.
What do you mean with "as of now"? None of the changes to the farms are in yet. We are still discussing it. What finally happens is up to Mabus.
In my opinion? Hell no! I'd like to re-add the Advanced Xeno Farm (and already did before the rollback), albeit with 6mt instead of 7mt. That would at least rectify some of the imbalances between the farming improvements. Well, in fact I'd like to do a lot more than just that, but, as I said, constraints. Still, just take a look at my working-sheet for AT to see what I'd like to do.
Of course it is a nerf because the 2 last farms have been thrown out of the game. And nobody would get the "technical" implication of this anyway since the picture that is used for EnhXenoFarm is exactly from that deleted farm in the first place. The majority of players will simply assume that the 7mt farm was reduced to 4mt food, or, as in your example, 3mt food. But I'm not harping around on that.
What I'm more concerned about is that going back to proper food is not going to solve anything. Because, especially the +300% food tile will again become responsible to create highpop worlds. At max 3 food for AI that instantly are +12 = 20mt and that is already a region where the AI only can handle approval lategame. Then going to 2mt max will perhaps reduce that risk but this comes at the costs of having all other planets in his empire at some mediocre level - and with no chance to do better. And what if that nasty +300 tile appears on a CivCap - screwed up again. Or multiple food bonus tiles. Or Torian who happen to have the Harvester that give add. +4mt resulting in +24b worlds right away on every planet with a +300% tile. And so on...
And from a player standpoint, it would be nice to play with foodtiles again, but if farms become so weak that there's no good reason to use them except in the rare occurence of bonustiles then it's still a bummer...
I also wonder why suddenly most races do have an early access to the basic farm? Because it doesn't make much sense if the AI builds farms right during the colonial rush, does it?. Perhaps this is one of the reasons why you saw an excessive usage of them in the first place? Because, if they were made available a time later then this would actually decrease the chance of the AI enqueuing so much of them because many tiles will already be filled with other stuff. (except for Iconians, but given their old relatively weak farm that would make sense, because originally they need 4 of them whereas the generic tree only had to use 2 tiles to come even)
And if you nerf farms then that starting farm will only be able to give +1 food. Which, if farms are cancelled out from the Minors, will be the only farm that Minors are able to spam on their planet. Seriously 1mt farms? Might as well better forget about farms and instead build some industry instead....
There's a small error in PlanetImprovements.xml
<Improvement> <S_InternalName>BasicFarming</S_InternalName> <S_Name>Xeno Farm</S_Name> <AI>20</AI> <S_UpgradeTarget>None</S_UpgradeTarget>
--> please change to: <S_UpgradeTarget>BasicFarm</S_UpgradeTarget>
I've also noticed that all upgradetargets of the starting improvements is back to "none". No idea what was wrong with that? Because there is no bug with that method I use that extensively in my personal mod for years.
I just ran a few testgames and there, Thalans traded for XenoIndustrialTheory and build 6ind facs while having also access to their own 10ind facs. I realize that this was always like this, but perhaps we could, at least, change that in case a unique branch is better than its generic counterpart. So that the upgrade will most likely be a real upgrade, not a downgrade.
- Yor facs/stalks
- Thalan labs/facs
- Torian springs
- Iconian farms (if stays unchanged as currently is)
"Virtually unconquerable" is perhaps minted to high pop, naturally such a planet will less likely be conquered by an invasion or culturally.
It's not a no-go, it is a consideration. Seeing as how a lot of people had trouble with their old customization and Stardock's stance is "tough" I simply want to minimize the trouble the next update causes.
As to the farm situation. I'll admit, I'm stumped. Seems like there's no easy solution.
Let's see:
Food Prod. PercentageThe AI builds farms on the homworld (16b pop-cap) No YesThe AI builds farms on bonus tiles Yes NoThe AI builds farms on planets that already have a high pop-cap No* YesThe Yor/Iconians build farms on planets that already have severalCharging Stalks/Robotic Farms No Yes
*Except for planets with bonus tiles.
The percentage bonus solved overpopulation due to the bonus tiles, but that's it. Everything else got worse. The AI simply can't tell what effect a farm with a percentage bonus has on the pop-cap. I'm not even entirely sure that the AI still recognises those farms as farming improvements. The Yor certainly don't. They treat the Charging Stalk as morale improvement. That's not the case, if the building gives food production.
Except the AI doesn't build farms on all of its planets. Most worlds simply stay at 8b. That's the case in both the CU and in AT. The Yor do probably the best in this regard, but even they don't build Charging Stalks on all of their worlds.
As I've already said multiple times, that's not going to cause problems. The AI hasn't built a single farm on the homeworld since I changed back to food production a year ago. Not once.
Would that really be that much worse than what's happening now? I mean, the AI still has planets with ultra-low approval ratings, because it doesn't build morale improvements there.
What do you mean with "suddenly"? This has been the case in the CU for well over a year.
No, I saw that even when the farms needed to be unlocked first. Plus, I don't recall having farms available from the start causing issues in DL and DA.
Fixed. No idea how that happened there.
I needed to undo all of the changes thanks to the enforced rollback.
Except that doesn't fit with their theme. The Thalan are the low population race.
Except that has been the case for well over a year. The "as of now" doesn't make sense in this instance.
It most likely won't anyhow. Knowing Mabus, he will probably reject it.
I've read all your posts and I'm going to sleep on it. I'm burned out from work. Gaunathor I'll have a look at your AT sheet tomorrow.
Regards and good night.
M.
Okay, but I don't how much of it would be acceptable for the CU. It basically boils down to a return to the original game in a majority of cases (90%+). My changes to the tech trees aren't included in the sheet, but it's the same there too.
Anyway, have a good night.
Reply 1602
Alien soil studies. Animals and planets should be animals and plants in its description.
Ok, this is gonna be a long but informative post, as I've dedicated the last 2 days entirely to observe AI autoplay esp. with the intention to find out what internal code drives the AI into farming usage.In most instances the basic setup was this:- swapping beteeen vanilla game & CU, with a few minor changes to some files in order to trigger, manipulate or test specific behaviour- 1vs1 game, always Arcean as allies (they do so bad during colonial rush), all vic cond disabled, techtrade disabled, no minors, all-abundant- cheat to have no PQ0 ingame, resulting in the testing faction aquiring ~1000 planets by year 6.- allow for 300-1500 turns for the game to develop at low-tech speed- setting AI tags for improvements to the CU valueTARGET POPULATION:If the target population of a planet is below 11, then an AI is still able to queue a proper farm. If target pop = 11 (or more) then he never will. This is the reason why a CivCap never receives additional farming. (There are, however, exceptions: one are improvements which hold multiple or mixed type of bonuses, such as the Thalans Hyperion Matrix, others are "unrecognized farms" such as the Food Distribution Center.)If you are now seeing an Initial Colony that holds several farms with levels of pop way beyond that limit, then this is the result of some different but interlinked dynamics:- As long as targetpop isn't 11 the AI can still queue, at least, 3 proper farms. This happens esp. on (1) extreme worlds with only 50% production because there, a farm might need a long time to be build (2) if farm strength is = 2 (3) if economy is broken & production slider is reduced (4) a bigger upgrade chain got triggered before farms got enqueued, by researching new levels of buildings or terraforming (5) a wonder/GA is build at a planet with pop maxed, the AI returns to just add farms to the queueBecause all of this can happen before the first farm has been completed, some of them which may be on a bonustile, this may lead to the impression that the AI cannot properly utilize farms. Especially since most starting farms can become susceptile for a future upgrade which then will raise targetpop into obscene levels. Still, none of this is actually a problem as I will explain later.PROPER FARMS:The game takes them as real farms, but it doesn't read out the value, or calculate for a target pop in advance. It will simply try to build such a farm and, as long as target pop stays below 11, eventually aim for another one.Generic Tree: The first farm only gives 2mt food which means, as long as he only has this level, he will always build 2 of them. Although this is not going to happen on all planets for various reasons, such as (1) no more free tiles (2) other stuff was more important (3) bonus-tiles. In my tests around ~25% of all planet saw 2 farms, which ultimately translated into +22mt food. Around ~50% had only 1 farm for 15mt food, around ~20% had no farm at all, and the minor rest had 3 farms.A reasonable re-balancing of the generic farm values would be IMO:Tier0: 3 foodTier1: 4 foodTier2: 6 foodThe effect would be:- More worlds with only 1 farm, translating into 14mt food- Less worlds with 2 farms, for 20mt worlds.- More effective use of tiles in case only tier0 are used- If only tier1 farms are available, planets range from 12-20b ppl.- A single 100% bonustile with a single farm will create only a 20b ppl world.I strongly suggest getting back to proper food in the CU.INITIAL FARM AVAILABILITYIf farms were available right from the start then this did increase the chance of planets having multiple farms. The reason is that, during the colonial rush, some of the above mentioned reason which reduce planetary production, do apply, giving the AI more time to queue a second or third farm before finishing off the first. On that it should be noted that now, all AI will research Soil Enhancement very early (if a single uninhabitated extreme planet is present on map) which will trigger an upgrade-chain right during the colonial rush.Suggestion: Remove starting farms, except Yor, Iconian, TorianInstead, increase AI value of all proper farms. If build under proper production a tier0 should be quick to build.PERCENTAGE-FARMS:The game cannot identify farms holding only a percentage-food-bonus. These improvements are somewhat "void" for him and therefore, the AI very seldomly uses them. In my tests, it was around 5 planets out of 1000 on average. Where each planet just held a single such farm. The remaining planets all stayed low at 8b ppl. Making these farms available as starting improvements did slightly increase the chance of usage. And if the AI uses them, it can also be at the CivCap.YOR STALKS:The 11mt brickwall is as well in place for them, so the game actually recognizes them to be farms. This is the reason why they aren't build at Iconia, and why the AI maximally builds 3. However, it's still a mixed improvement and the AI will put it firstly on a moral bonus tile. I would need to do more testing on why this behaviour is exactly like it is... perhaps there is a routine in place which suggests that foodtiles are the least desireable... but this is speculative. In one way the Stalks introduce the most reasonable approach to bonustiles, since a planet with one 100% bonustile will still be able to build a second stalk, a planet with a +300% not. The endresult of Advanced Stalks then ranges just between 17-20 only, a very homogenous margin. (ofc it doesn't always happen like this, reasons see above, but in alot of cases it will be like this)Because of this self-regulatory system, the AI value could see the most increase, perhaps to 100. Esp. also since the Yor economy has to rely on them in the abscence of banks/VLCs.ICONIAN ROBOTIC FARMS:The Iconians build less farms than the generic races because they immediately hit the 11mt wall. Which, in their case, is not well designed since that farm doesn't receive any future upgrade. At AI=100 they'll build, at least, a single farm on 50% of all worlds, 30% receive 2, the rest none. Therefore the Iconian worlds are inferior in popstrength than all other races. I'm not exactly sure what to do here, but since the Iconian approach is hands down the weakest, it'll call for a buff. Perhaps increase the strength to 4mt, or reduce their maintenance, or both... or give them some additional ability. Just not reducing their buildcost - because this will only serve to let them have even less.TORIAN HARVESTER:Basically the same could be also said about Torian Harvesters, although the situation is even more worse at the beginning of the game. Because Torians don't have instant access to farms, so mostly all early planets will only receive the Harvester but no other additional farm. That's in one way tragic because the combination of a small 1pp food structure with a upgradable farm that rises from technological progression is perhaps the best approach to reasonable farming. 8mt --> 12mt to give Breeder SA more breathing room, then 12mt-->14-->18-->19 for the following years.In my opinion, this could only safely happen if the Harvester gives maximally +2mt food. So that, regardless of time, Torians will always be able to queue another farm. Perhaps buff it into other regions such his foodproduction. A +1mt +20% food production will still only create a +10b ppl world initially while, once another farm is added, that +20% will make much more out of it (if it has proper food)AI TAG IN PLANETIMPROVEMENTS.XMLSome of the AI values need adjustment, but this has to be done in response to the actual overall-balancing, and also, the actual strength of the starting farm.Initial farms that give +3 (or more) food need to be increased BY MUCH (in direct comparison to other improvements) to make sure that the AI gets the chance to build 2 of them more often. I'd suggest a value of 50-100 for them.Lowyield starting farms with +2 food can see lower values, perhaps ranging from 20-50, because the AI has all time to build 2 of them if enough space is available.You'll need to adjust this also for single branches when going from tier to tier.HYPERION MATRIX:This is a special mixed-bonuses building and is therefore excluded from some AI routines. The AI will reckon this as farm, even put it on a farming-bonustile, even at a homeworld. However, his priorities are as the bonuses are listed in the ingame informational window in the planet screen. Deleting the research & industry bonus - essentially turning it into a genuine farm, will prevent the AI from building it at a planet with targetpop of 11 or more.If CivCaps come back to 16mt it may be okay to adjust this so that Thala receives an upgrade in potential pop to 20mt food. Also, the food bonus can savely stay percentage... neither way will do any harm.FOOD DISTRIBUTION CENTER:This improvement is not recognized by the game as a farm and therefore, it is the only chance of the AI to increase the population of his CivCap from 16 to 20 lategame. However, the chance that this is going to happen is minimal, because (1) the game very seldomly uses these "void" improvements (2) and if he chooses to use it it may not be at his CivCap.My suggestion would be to re-integrate it back into the game (it has been intially thrown out under false assumptions) but to make it 1pp improvement. As such, this is the only hope of planets with only a single farm (pop=11-15) to receive a final upgrade (to 13-18)FOOD BONUSTILESTheir presence seems to increase the chance of farms being enqueued on that planet. This might be related to the AIs behaviour trying to keep bonustiles free of unrelated improvements as long as possible. It may seem broken that a planet that is going to multiply its food will eventually see more farms but a superhigh target pop didn't create any problems. The additional farms are - more or less - only a waste of tiles (which could have been used for other stuff) but that's no gamebreaker.SUPER HIGH TARGET POPULATIONThe AI have no problems managing super-high pop worlds. It is beyond me how that initially got identified as a problem (???). Maybe someone could help me here to setup a game which will esp. trigger this alledged problem....As for my tests, which have been extensive & extreme - the results are:- The AI will adjust its general tax sliders in accordance with his economic balance. If he makes negatives - he is going to increase tax in order to get more money NO MATTER how unhappy planets will become. He even goes so far as to cross below 20% approval resulting in an instant drop of population (mostly on superpop worlds) which then, gradually increases the planetary approval next turn. Ultimately this means that all of his high-target pop planets (be it either from 3*farms or bonus tiles, or both) will have high pop but low moral between 20%-38%.If the AI makes alot of surplus money he might lower taxes resulting in a slight increase in pop in some of these worlds. He does, however, instantly STOP with this behaviour when making no surplus. In other words, the AI does NOT try to fully maximize the actual population to meet the final target pop range! These planets do not threaten his game.I went to extreme measures to further corroborat this - giving the initial colony +99mt food as base(!). Result was after (300 turns on 1000 planets):- ~25% of planets red moral, pop from 20b - 24b ppl- ~50% of planets yellow moral, pop below 20b, still growing- ~25% of planet 100% approval, recently colonized.Global economy stable, although +20k/turn bc on espionageIn a normal setup, the extreme range of actual pop was reduced, as was numbers of super high pop planets - which could all be identified as having +300% or multiple +100% bonustiles + farms. And although all their moral was red, the AI didn't bother in reducing taxes.However, these conclusions are all based on a game where an empire has more than 100 planets. There might be exceptions to this when facing tiny empires. Using Thala as example, I got these results:- If the starting planet hightargetpop (=24mt food) had low moral (because I deleted the Temporal Entertainment...) then the AI will try to reduce the taxes, resulting in new colonies with very high moral, until he cannot afford it economically. Then he will naturally increase tax until somehow balanced. This mechanism supports increased population growth in low pop worlds - good. And it actually is the complete opposite of the "High Moral Worlds Economic Breakdown":HIGH MORAL WORLDS ECONOMIC BREAKDOWN:This is something that can happen esp. to Iconians if they have 1 or 2 moral bonus tiles on New Iconia. They will most likely build 2*25% Dream Conclaves = +100% planetary approval, +10% from high PQ world, +20% from CivCap == +130% total.This triggers the AI to jack up global taxes to extreme levels, resulting in deep red approval on newly colonized worlds. As such, his game remains static forever, as he even faces pop loss in all colonies but his gifted HW.The crucial ingredient to this self-destructive behaviour is that, early on, it's the HW that nets the major economic income (you cannot corroborate this on tiny-medium galaxy where tourism income is splendid....) so the AI focuses on that world solely. His other worlds - that actually net minus bcs - he views as a drag and eventually will try to get rid of them.This incident usually doesn't happen later on because, with enough planets collected, the AI tax slider adjustments reflects more the average planetary situation.As I recall, OSHEE created a minor version of the Dream Conclave - that should be taken back in, again.ESPIONAGE:This is the most severe threat to a functioning economy, and it may even cause problems very lategame. If some AI get too many Esp. bonuses their game sliders alternate between 100% & 0% production because espionage is eating away so much funds they always need to play an "empty turn" to be able to fuel their production. In all games all AI won't refrain from collecting spies even if they have 99.If Esp. is reduced by -100 then around midgame all AI tend to increasingly quickbuy stuff. In endgame they either can't - or won't - spend all of it so they accumulate several hundreds of thousands in surplus cash quickly.Around -50% it seems to be balanced for the vanilla game.CIVILIZATION CAPITAL:At 12mt food it won't see a proper normal farm, and therefore, stay smaller than many other colonies.I suggest upping it to 16mt food, again.MINOR FARMS:If food goes back to proper value none of the Minors will use them.If CivCap food goes back to 16mt then there is no need for Minor farming, at all. The Minors make enough money, anyway. What they need is industry to build ships to hold off the attackers.Actually, superhigh pop (around 20b ppl) for Minors is not good because of the increased moral penalty - worlds in red moral are very easy to take by using Information Warfare, practically defeating the planet with its own population.***unrelated:TECHTRADE BUG#1:If AIs trade techs amongst themselves then these specific techs don't get obsoleted. In some way this can be perceived to "kill the upgrade chain"...TECHTRADE BUG#2:The AIs can trade technologies amongst themselves which they already possess.Both bugs can be conjoined:In one of my games the Yor reseached Collective Research, traded for Research Academy, then went on to research Invention Matrix. At this point, both Research Academy & Invention was shown under "NEW" - and they also build both.After ~100 turns they then traded for *another* Collective Research - which also made the Research Center available under "NEW" - so they build inferior labs in more than 60% of all cases.Researching Discovery Sphere will solve this partially, because all redundant improvements will become elligible for an auto-upgrade - but this only works as long as the ultimate end of the upgrade chain hasn't been reached.After that they will still queue otherwise obsolete improvements....Thus, a quasi-fix for midgame is to interlink more branches.Ultimately, the only true fix is to make all techs holding redundant improvements untradeable.
@Maiden.
Wow, now that was a thorough analysis. Long story short. Regular farms (+food) work best because the AI actually recognizes them as farms and applies them better because of that. The morale meltdown on capital works doesn't happen and we can safely push max population on capitals to 16 bln.
Correct?
Alright, here is a test version based on Maiden666s post.
Here are the changes:
PlanetImprovements.xmlCivilization Capital: changed food from 8 back to 16, removed food percentage bonusremoved Basic Farm and Minor FarmXeno Farm: changed UpgradeTarget from BasicFarm to None, changed Cost from 50 back to 40, replaced food percentage bonus with 3 foodEnhanced Xeno Farm: changed Cost from 75 back to 70, replaced food percentage bonus with 4 foodre-added Advanced Xeno Farm: Cost 120, Maintenance 2bc, food 6re-added Food Distribution Center: 1pp, Cost 200, Maintenance 1bc, food +25%Robotic Farm: replaced food percentage bonus with 3 foodHarvester: added 1 food, reduced food percentage bonus from 50% to 20%Basic Stalk: replaced food percentage bonus with 1 foodCharging Stalks: replaced food percentage bonus with 2 foodAdvanced Charging Stalks: replaced food percentage bonus with 3 foodset AI value for all farming improvements to 50
RaceConfig.xmlall races: removed Basic Farms from starting techs
TechTree.xmlre-added Xeno Farm Construction IIIEntertainment Networks: changed Requires to Capitalismremoved Basic Farms
Altarian_TechTree.xmlre-added Xeno Farm Construction IIIremoved Basic Farms
Arcean_TechTree.xmlre-added Xeno Farm Construction IIIremoved Basic Farms
Drath_TechTree.xmlre-added Xeno Farm Construction IIIremoved Basic Farms
Dreadlords_TechTree.xmlre-added Xeno Farm Construction III
Drengin_TechTree.xmlXeno Farm Construction: changed Pop-Growth bonus from 15% back to 10%Xeno Farm Construction: changed Pop-Growth bonus from 15% back to 10%, removed Morale bonusre-added Xeno Farm Construction III: added Pop-Growth bonus of 10%removed Basic Farms
Korath_TechTree.xmlXeno Farm Construction: changed Pop-Growth bonus from 15% back to 10%Xeno Farm Construction: changed Pop-Growth bonus from 15% back to 10%, removed Morale bonusre-added Xeno Farm Construction III: added Pop-Growth bonus of 10%removed Basic Farms
Korx_TechTree.xmlre-added Xeno Farm Construction IIIremoved Basic Farms
Krynn_TechTree.xmlre-added Xeno Farm Construction IIIremoved Basic Farms
MinorRace_TechTree.xmlre-added Xeno Farm Construction III
Terran_TechTree.xmlre-added Xeno Farm Construction IIIremoved Basic Farms
Torian_TechTree.xmlre-added Xeno Farm Construction III
The biggest questions are: what AI values should we use for the farming improvements, what changes should we make to the Robotic Farm (if any), and what AIValue/Category should we use for the Xeno Farm Construction techs? The last one is especially important. The first tech is currently set to Category Biology which makes the AI go for it pretty quickly. The other two are set to Category Farming which the AI mostly ignores. Changing it to Biology would cause the AI to go for them sooner, but that may not be a good idea due to the cost of the techs.
Yes, that's what I saw in all tests.
@ Gaunathor
Thanks for the files, I'm gonna play a number of testplays in order to collect some statistical data; and look for any problems that might appear.
- I'm going to decrease the cost of "Xeno Farm Construction II" to 500 (halfed) because this tech adds only a +1 to the strength of the farms.
On your other raised questions, I'll do some playing around in order to see what works best within some reasonable ranges.
Sounds reasonable.
Thanks. The Hyperion Matrix and Gaia Vortex still need adjustments. I wasn't quite sure what to do with them, so I decided to focus on the farms first. Maybe 25% food for the HM, and 3 food for the GV?
Wasn't entertainment network going to get its own tech as to avoid ginvg it to races that shouldn't get it?
Won't that mean the Krynn, Dregin, Korath will get the entertainment center? I know how you'll fix the drengin & korath. What do you suggest for the Krynn?
Changing it to Biology would cause the AI to go for them sooner, but that may not be a good idea due to the cost of the techs.
It will also unbalance research optimizations. I'd rather not go there.
It did. That entry is referring to the tech, not the improvement.
Yeah I like that. Esp. since Thalans have no farming so a player might put the GV on a +300% foodtile for a second 20b ppl planet.
I'm so far finished with the TORIANS:- The rebalanced Harvester works fairly well; on bonustiles it'll create a 12b resp. 14b world; without bonustiles a XenoFarm is placed once they research it (quite early)- I saw a lot of planets without a starport, but only lategame, when they had HabitatImpr & Terraforming. The reasons are lowPQ planets.On colonization the AI seems to get one chance to quickbuy an improvement, and afterwards, works down the upgrade-chain, which, in this case, are 10-15 tiles terraforming. In any of these circumstances the Torians choose to build a CENTRAL MINE. Which, in one way, is not a bad idea either, since then the planetary buildup can happen faster. On the other hand, most of these planets were already capped at 8b ppl but the terraforming chain hasn't even been completed yet, so I assume that for 20, 30 or 40 turns those planets even didn't release a single (colony)ship - and alot of MP was lost. I think we should increase the AI for Starport, and decrease the one from Central Mine, so that, at least, Starport is well over that from Central Mine.- Torians seem to be not very interested to research category "biology" or "farming" either. In some games they finished farming before getting "Fertility Accl". In some games they even finished Technological Victory (!) before those two branches (with TechVic disabled in settings) (!!). In one way it makes sense because Torians really don't need additional popgrowth. On the other hand Torians need farming because of their SA, and I'm not sure if it's based on Torian behaviour, or if it might be generally rooted in their AIP.- Torians build 3*moral improvements very consistently on most planets resulting in +150% moral lategame. This really calls for good farming because they can sustain highpop worlds.LOWPQ FACTORY ONLY PLANETS:There are some specific planets where the AI builds only starport & improvements containing an INDUSTRY bonus. That made alot of sense in DL because there, lowPQ didn't get so much extra tiles from terraforming and stayed lowPQ - meaning, that the lowPQ also capped the populationlevel to well below 8b ppl. Therefore, the whole branch of farming-, culture-, moral- & economic structures made no sense so the AI build just a few facs to support the Starport. Now in TotA these worlds can be turned into PG ++15... with dozens of factories spamed, resulting somewhat in a production overkill. Also the income vs. maintenance imbalance is obscene. The good news is that the AI will build the Food Distribution Center on these worlds. If I gift them that tech right from the start in about ~50% of all cases, turning them, at least, into 10b worlds. The bad news is that Farming3 is researched only very late so basically that doesn't happen much, and if, far too late.I've (unsuccessfully) tried to manipulate improvements in order to trick to the AI to make something better, or more balanced, out of these worlds. For example, just adding an +1% industry bonus to any kind of improvement will do the trick. Unfortunately, that also affects the other planetary builds and as these improvements then are seen as industry, the 3-per-planet limitation (of quite a number of branches) is nullified, doing more harm than good.So, apart from trying to let him (or the other AIs, as this problem persists for everyone) have the Food Distribution Center early (maybe relocate to Farming2 & making that interesting for all AIP) I've no other clue as how to solve this.But the underlaying AI behaviour is definitely an remnant from DL and got overlooked when changing how terraforming affected planets...FOOD DISTRBUTION CENTER:I think the buildcost (200) of the FDC could be decreased, in most cases it brings around 2-4mt food. (otherwise a human player will never build it...) The 4mt/6mt farms at 70/120 cost are definitely better. It should actually stay below cost of 70 because, at a 16b planet, it'll give 4mt food, so it does tie that XenoFarm, but it's worse on LowTargetPop planets, and if TargetPop is already over 16, then it's unnecessary to build farms anyway.FERTILITY CLINIC:In the current form the AI is not going to use the Fertility Clinic (below 1% of all planets) even if you gift them FertilAccl. right on turn1. I'm not sure why. Either he doesn't recognize +PopGrowth as a valid bonus or the AI (10) is too low. (If he doesn't recognize it then this will mean that he views the Recruiting Center solely as an economic structure.) On the other hand, considering that this improvements doesn't have any upgrade, and diminishes in being beneficial once planets are popcapped, I think it's acceptable that he omits it, the AI will build better improvements instead.
That's true, but then we simply need to pay a closer look on individual research-patterns. For example, AIP7 loves biology, researches it very early - which is good, since getting popgrowth bonuses early is one of the best economic things to do anyway. We shouldn't throw them off track by tricking them into farms, instead, I agree.
But other AIP might deal with biology differently. Thus, we might change that Category not in TechTree.xml (for everyone) but instead in the techtree-sheet of a specific race. The Torians for example, have so much more need to get end-farms than any other race.
If AIs trade techs amongst themselves then these specific techs don't get obsoleted. In some way this can be perceived to "kill the upgrade chain"...
TECHTRADE BUG#2:
The AIs can trade technologies amongst themselves which they already possess.Both bugs can be conjoined:In one of my games the Yor reseached Collective Research, traded for Research Academy, then went on to research Invention Matrix. At this point, both Research Academy & Invention was shown under "NEW" - and they also build both.After ~100 turns they then traded for *another* Collective Research - which also made the Research Center available under "NEW" - so they build inferior labs in more than 60% of all cases.Researching Discovery Sphere will solve this partially, because all redundant improvements will become elligible for an auto-upgrade - but this only works as long as the ultimate end of the upgrade chain hasn't been reached.After that they will still queue otherwise obsolete improvements....
Thus, a quasi-fix for midgame is to interlink more branches.
Ultimately, the only true fix is to make all techs holding redundant improvements untradeable.
What could also be done to decrease the chance of obsolete improvements being build by the AI, is to set value of <AI> in PlanetImprovements.xml in a branch to increase. Currently it's linear e.g:
<Improvement> <S_InternalName>BasicFactory</S_InternalName> <S_Name>Traditional Factory</S_Name><AI>15</AI>
<Improvement> <S_InternalName>Factory</S_InternalName> <S_Name>Advanced Factory</S_Name> <AI>15</AI>
<Improvement> <S_InternalName>Enhanced Factory</S_InternalName> <S_Name>Xeno Factory</S_Name> <AI>15</AI>
<Improvement> <S_InternalName>Manufacturing Center</S_InternalName> <S_Name>Manufacturing Center</S_Name> <AI>15</AI>
<Improvement> <S_InternalName>Industrial Sector</S_InternalName> <S_Name>Industrial Sector</S_Name> <AI>15</AI>
if it would be 5-->10-->15-->20-->25 then this would significantly reduce the chance of a Basic Factory being chosen over an Industrial Sector etc
But this would require a major overhaul of all AI tags of most improvements so I'm not suggesting this for the CU. But for mods it could be interesting.
Is it possible to change the value system for the different techs of other civilizations where the ai don't value those techs of other civilizations, or want to buy them.
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