Greetings!Today I would like to ask you guys some questions about strategy games.
1. What specific features of diplomacy do you traditionally like the most? I want you to be as specific as you can be. Which parts of diplomacy from any game do you like the most? What parts do you remember long after playing the most?
2. Looking back, how many turns do your favorite games last? This is important to know the specific number of turns the game in Question lasted.
3. Consider all The 4X strategy games that you have ever played. How do you define what is a good strategy game or a bad one? To you what makes one strategy game good fand another one bad? Consider different memories you have of those games can you remember the parts that made you enjoy that game the most?
Thanks!
1) I feel in a lot of games it not very obvious how a race feels about you and what you can/cant do. I also often feel it's hard to find out the big picture in diplomacy and i am often unaware of relations between other races. This overall lack of clear information often makes me think diplomacy doesnt have a big effect on the game. I feel i would use diplomacy more if it was more obvious.
For example when trading i want to be able to look at the things i am trading, but in many games you can't without permanently ending the opportunity. Similarly in civ5, you often get a screen that says "lets announce we are friends", and i can say yes/no, i say yes, and the next turn all the other leaders complain to my face that they dont like that. There was no way for me to check at that point how it would affect the other leaders, i could only have done that before.
2) i think it's more important that every turn is meaningful, rather then the specific amount of turns. I think a game on default settings should be completable in one sitting (3-5 hours)
3)good:
-Endless space did a great job at presenting you the information you need when you need it, very few screens where you are locked into a decision without being able to check other things first. Being able to check things before you decide is very important. also great empire management screen. You oculd just minimize a battle or trade request while you check the things involved or build structures first.
-Stardrives races had great personality because you could talk to them about unimportant stuff, like how a bear uses a sword and what not. this greatly enhanced the flavor of each race. Combined with very distinctive themes and music for each race this was great.
I think it also had 3 bars to define relatoins, trust, anger and fear orsomething, compared to 1 overall bar. This helps alot with the overall at a glance diplomacy approach. With just 1 bar it's hard to see wether somebody doesnt like me because my army is to strong, because i insulted them, etc.
bad:
-stacks of doom are often handled bad. endless space for example you had to go trough 20 fleets regularly, very tedious. Civ4 was probably the other extreme.
-in many games tall vs wide empires are badly balanced. i remember in warlock master of the arcane it was just city spam, whereass in civ 5 there often isn't a whole lot of room to place cities before you run into opponents.
- i often find that being isolationist has no downsides, maybe i should just play on a higher difficulty, but i think the AI should interact with you more then just "time for war" "wanna trade this for that" once in a while if you decide to ignore them.
I will specifically answer question 3. I believe a that we have 10,001 patriotic pro-capitalist games. The fact is most people are working class. We have no strategy games that give us a chance to rebel against oppressive tyranny by the bosses and rulers. The reality of the last 2-3 years shows mass rebellion whether it be over racism in the US or extreme poverty and state oppression in Bangladesh, the Mid East, or workers in France, Italy, and Greece fighting back against austerity by staging sit-down strikes , holding corporate executives hostage in their own factories is on the rise. I can visualize massive actions against perpetual warfare by the US in the oil-producing areas, eventually including mutinies and fraggings like during the Vietnam War. I want to see these type of scenarios in Gal Civ III, another words a reflection of the cultural and economic phenomena that are in the works here./ Not everyone is a drone and mindlessly patriotic. I want options like factions within civilizations embracing mass rebellion not simply repressing it.
cIV and cIV: Fall from Heaven are the best and most fun strategy games I have ever played.
Easy to learn but hard to master. Good pacing and multiple paths to victory.
The AI was there to entertain and help you tell a story. (See Soren Johnson's wonderful talk on AI)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJcuQQ1eWWI
The game was also extremely moddable. The designer Soren Johnson fought to get the source code released.
Because of that wonderful decision, you had the epic mod Fall from Heaven created. An immersive world with a very cool backstory.
To me, you can't get better than this. The only thing I could think of would be to improve the graphics for these games.
Although I've not yet played my first GC game (...am hoping to be able to, soon), I've spent hundreds of hours over the years playing turned-based and RTS grand strategy and 4X games.
While I haven't read all 100+ posts in this thread, many of my feelings have already been stated by others, here, and I'd just like to emphasize a few, particular, comments already posted by others:
I, too, much prefer to spend my game time figuring out a strategy or tactic, rather than doing repetitive, "no-challenge" micromanagement of large numbers of troops/units/cities/buildings, etc. Therefore, I usually enjoy the beginning stages of game play the most...before I have to start tediously micromanaging a hundred (or hundreds) of..."things." (I, also, don't much enjoy continuing to play a game when I feel pretty confident I know how it's going to end -- the "mopping up" part of a game, as another has described it.)
Disliking tedious micromanagement, the idea of delegating (in some way) -- to generals/governors/ministers -- the more repetitive "work" in playing a game, does appeal to me...as long as I can decide the overall strategy and "who does what"...and not be concerned about whether or not my "orders" will be correctly carried out. However, although several other games have attempted to implement a "delegation mechanic," I've yet to find a game with "delegation" that works well enough for me to want to use it.
As for the "surprise and excitement" that "chance and randomness" add to game play...and although I do like "surprises," I tend to prefer games where "luck" has nothing to do with the outcome of a game. So...my "vote" would be for either no "chance and randomness," or very little...certainly not any major, game-changing random events. (While some may feel that "no randomness" does not reflect real life, I, personally, don't believe in "luck"...and, therefore, do not share that viewpoint.)
As far as diplomacy, I, too, enjoy witty responses...as long as AI "characters" behave in a manner that is "reasonable," given the present circumstances and the AI character's own set of beliefs, values and priorities...which, I think, would imply at least some amount of consistency and "fathom-ability"...at some level...even though I realize circumstances, belief's, values, and priorities can change.
1. What specific features of diplomacy do you traditionally like the most? I want you to be as specific as you can be. Which parts of diplomacy from any game do you like the most? What parts do you remember long after playing the most?Trades should be fairly valued. (Unless it is a race's makeup to never deal fairly.) Deals should be possible always. (Unless it is a race's makeup to hold a grudge.) Pragmatism and practicality should usually hold sway. (Unless it is in a race's makeup to be a natural enemy or overly emotional.) Loyalty is a trait that is not often left unexpressed in Diplomacy.2. Looking back, how many turns do your favorite games last? This is important to know the specific number of turns the game in Question lasted. My favorite games last into the thousands of turns. I like to play the largest maps; I like complexity, novelty, richness.3. Consider all The 4X strategy games that you have ever played. How do you define what is a good strategy game or a bad one? To you what makes one strategy game good and another one bad? Consider different memories you have of those games can you remember the parts that made you enjoy that game the most?Surprise and dry humor are always most memorable. The worst is the feeling of been-here, done-this. And feelings of Drudgery. Ennui. Why did I waste my time. Games that spend all their cleverness in the opening and midgame, and leave nothing new for the end game. Games should evolve as they get longer. Certain strategies should weaken and others gain strength, perhaps in unexpected ways. Gameplay of course must be balanced. If one can't choose who to be and still have a chance to win, what's the point?
I would just like to emphasize this one point. there are other topics on auto balancing trades or assigning "value" to items that can be used to min/max a deal, but this 'What will it take to make this deal work?' is brilliant! It should not put the deal exactly on the border of barely acceptable (min/max thing again), but should allow a deal to be possible for desperate times.
I'm going to go out of the box here... A.I.'s are nice and all, but the best games I have ever played have been against real people. There is nothing better than playing a "long game" that pays out using multiple real people against each other to your benefit!
Recently I have started up a game of STARFIRE with my old college gaming buddies. This game started out as a pen and paper game and has now "evolved" into either turning in turns by email (usually as Excel spreadsheets) or via a very simplistic web site starfireonline.com. These games last YEARS or real time. I would love to see GC3 have a server mode or some other way for real players to turn in turns. It should also have a deadline that makes the race go A.I. for a turn if they miss the deadline, just to keep the game moving. With these tools, you could get the ultimate diplomacy experience... real people! (see discussion: https://forums.galciv3.com/458005/page/1/#3497936)
I also wouldn't mind seeing STARFIRE being turned into a computer game, since its rules have been hammered out and playtested for over 25 years. I would buy/subscribe to that in a heartbeat.
I have played games that have lasted real years! With that kind of time invested, you can't help but get emotionally attached to the race/civ you are playing!
As many others have said, bad is predictable, good is deep with many strategies to victory for maximum replayability. Highly customizable races, tech trees, and ships lead to players trying out weird strategies that sometimes work, sometimes not, but are always interesting and fun. One of the best 4x game memories I have is of MOO2 (against real people) where I totally pwn'ed everyone with a custom race I called "the Borg" that used mind control to flip planets and a unique ship design that kited the enemies. (required playing the tactical battles to get it right, but it worked awesome!)
In GC3, since it seems that it is unlikely to get tactical combat, I think it is crucial to have a large variety of combat tactic "orders" to give so that all ship combat doesn't come down to offence number - defense number math. Puting firing arcs on weapons might also lead to some interesting ship designs/tactics/fun. (i.e. mega gun spinal mount with front firing only, regular gun on turret 360 degree firing, larger guns that only fire sideways to broadside/kite in circle, huge gun that only fires rear arc and kite as they chase you, etc.)
I would like to add that my worst moments always include some stupid completely random event that completely devastates my empire. Some random weird stuff can be fun and break up the monotony of mid/late game, but when it ends up to be the game decider it ruins the game for me forever.
1) Snarky comments. Star Control had them. Ascendancy had them. Bard's Tale had them. Warlords had them.
2) 500 turns and more. I love to play long games. I love to have loooong tech trees/branches. I like micromanagement, but with good user interface.
3) I like TBS > RTS. The one RTS that is an all time favorite for me was Dawn of War: Dark Crusade. For TBS - Ascendancy (yea, the AI was whack), MOO2, Star Control 3 (Yea, too ambitious), GC2, ES, Civ4/5, SotS, and EL. E:FELH is also up there. I love uniqueness. I love having lots of options that mean something. I love uniform and organized micromanagement. I love pretty games. I love a good AI. I love large tech trees, and unique quests. I want a game to have many facets to it. Even though some games really excel at one or two things, I love for games to be able to shine in multiple categories. Memorable diplomatic dialogue. Snarky AI. Good combat. Good city management. Interesting choices that lead down interesting pathways.
Not every game that I've listed has all of those (except maybe E:FELH and EL), but they have enough to draw my interest.
The most important thing is good multiplayer diplomatic options. I don't care so much about AI diplomacy. Instead build in the tools which make for good MP diplomacy.
Ability to sell/trade units/planets/etc. Trade/sell technology. Player defined boarders and neutral zones, possibly with automatic alerts for violations (along with option to declare war, or trigger penalty clause from the treaty.).
On this note, a treaty builder would be awesome. Treaties should have templates for easy use (defensive pact for 10 years for example), but should be fully player customizable, not limited to cookie cutter items as in the Civ series.
-Mettius
I'm only going to answer the 3rd, because to me, the other two depend way too much on the game in question.The thing I like MOST in a 4x, are the game breakers. The things everyone could do, but were awe inspiringly powerful. MoM will always be the greatest in this as far as I'm concerned. The huge powerful spells that were so very strong. The really good blue counters. The big wyrm's for green combined with flying... creating massive voclano's under your enemies cities that made them worthless with red. Or the death spell that raised slain enemies as undead for your army. Or create artifact making unstoppable heoes.These things took a long time to cast (build, w/e you want to call it), the other players had opportunity to stop you (counter spells & cast times), but if you finished it, woe to the poor fool who failed to stop you.That dynamic will always be my favorite part of any 4x game.
- I like the ability to tech/map share with friendlies. So much in fact that I dl'ed a mod specifically to add these features into Civ5.
- I like treaties that stop short of outright alliance/war. Open borders, research/trade agreements, defensive pacts. I also like the option for these to be either turn-limited or indefinite. Specifically, the option - I hate having to renew the agreements every two minutes in Civ5.
- I like how GC2 did away with having to fanny about making offers only to have them rejected, but never could know how far short you were (or if the AI was prepared to trade it at all). Instead you clicked on stuff on yours and the oppo's side until it turned green, then you knew what would make the deal work and could decide if the price was right. Some might call it 'dumbed down' - I call it streamlined and logical, and probably more like how it works in real life - offers, counter-offers, taking things off and putting things on the table.
- I like when the AI makes decisions which have a clear and logical reason/advantage (consider what happened in Rome: Total War/Medieval 2 Total War, when you could own literally half the map and then your puny neighbour would just declare war and REFUSE to ever become a vassal or anything no matter how badly you kicked its face in) Typically, factions, nations, civilisations IRL are out for their own self-interest and will do what benefits them most. An alliance with the most powerful faction? They should snatch your hand off unless they have parity or near-parity and are in direct competition for some reason (resources, 2 warlike rivals, neighbours competing for systems, cultural overlaps, historical grievances etc). The AI should also remember historical friendships and how you've treated other friends in the past.
Hundreds. Thousands. As long as I can. I always pick the biggest map available with abundant resources and the most AI factions and minors to play with.
3. Consider all The 4X strategy games that you have ever played. How do you define what is a good strategy game or a bad one? To you what makes one strategy game good and another one bad? Consider different memories you have of those games can you remember the parts that made you enjoy that game the most?
I play the following series:
GC2/3
Civ/SMAC
Total War
I find it hard to find things they all have in common. I think the scope, scale and player freedom makes GC and SMAC shine for me. Designing your own units was the big initial draw to GC2 (and SMAC) for me, allowing me to actually make my own strategy both from the tech tree but also have a unit roster that wasn't proscriptive - you could have a fleet of glass cannons and stick a beef gate up front to tank all the damage away while the glass cannons tore your enemy up, or you could have a thousand tiny pinpricks take down the battleship.
TW has tactical freedom in the way you conduct battles, even if you can't design your own spearmen TW also got worse when it took away some of the city micro (tax rates, build priorities), which didn't really need taking away.
Civ doesn't have the freedom, but like GC2 and SMAC and the earlier TWs (pre-Empire) it has an immersion - you get to care how your civ does, which is where the 'just one more turn!' phenomenon comes in. It's challenging but fair. So, freedom and immersion, I suppose.
1.) Best aspects of diplomacy:
- Lots of options. Sharing maps, pacts to share research/wealth production, trade pacts, United Planets votes (aka voting with you in next council), etc. I want to be able to make a lot of different diplomatic offers, including treaties, trades, and gifts/requests/tribute.
- Europa Universalis has a very large +200/-200 relations rating, that prevents the AI from randomly betraying you; I don't understand why no one else has done this. The relations rating goes up/down based both on major/minor events (up to +/- 100) and on a monthly (aka turn) basis bringing it up or down by a modest amount (assuming you didn't bribe them into liking you, in which case it could go down very fast).
- Logical vassals/protectorates. Nations that are afraid of being conquered by their neighbors or are simply ineffective on the grand scale should be willing to or even offer to become a protectorate of another nation. A nation might join either a faction it is afraid of, or a rival of said faction (or simply another powerful nation they prefer being subject to), based on the circumstances of each incidence. Civ4 and the Europa Universalis series make the most sense implementing this feature.
- Nations should be willing to make peace if they are getting destroyed in a war; just because their military is 5 times bigger than yours doesn't mean its 5 times better, and I get frustrated by games where I consistently beat an AI but can't make peace (GalCiv2 and Total War come to mind). They should also remember that you crushed them last time you fought (or that they crushed you).
- You should be able to form temporary alliances between multiple factions, for the purpose of rivalling another faction or alliance. Europa Universalis II did this feature (without any goal for the alliance though), and balanced it by simply having the alliance dissolve if no one in it fought for too long. The problems with this feature though, are that it is admittedly based on having larger numbers of factions (minor races should be included in this consideration) and that in EU2 alliances often formed too often and too quickly (and you couldn't get an ally back into your little coalition if he joined another grand alliance).
- I HATED Civilization 5's diplomacy, for a few reasons. First, declarations of friendship built pseudo-alliances that made playing with 20+ civilizations impossible; when one or two friends denounced one nation, the rest would all start following suit regardless of their relations to those two. I even had to deal with a nation that I liberated back into existence denouncing me in one game. Second, warmongering penalties were abominably severe, and NEVER WENT AWAY; Persia still hated the Greeks in the 21st Century because Alexander the Great tried to obliterate them millenia earlier. Third, the AI was still fundamentally stupid; a nation with no friends wouldn't be any more eager to make new ones than a nation with 12 allies, and on the other hand a small and militarily-backwards nation would eagerly provoke a war with a far larger and more powerful nation with more allies, on the grounds of something ridiculous like a minor border dispute. To be blunt, I don't understand how so many people promote that game's diplomacy setup, as I preferred Civ4's diplomacy far more (not to mention GalCiv2's); it was so bad that I can't really bring myself to play the game at all despite enjoying the other aspects of the game a lot.
2.) Turns in a game:
- Probably 300-500 turns. I rarely finish my games once they reach the mop-up phase, although that's fine so long as the rest of the game is long, and entertaining. Games can go a lot longer if it feels like the nature and pace of the game are changing over time (such as in Civ4).
3.) Good and bad elements from 4X games:
- Endless Space has a really good UI, making everything easy to access and smoothing over the overall entry into the game. It helps a ton when a game has a clean, convenient, and easy-to-use and easy-to-read interface.
- Civilization 4 and Civilization 5 are great examples of shooting yourself in the foot during game design. Both games are basically fantastic (Civ5 only with the expansions though)...except that both games have something so broken that it's hard to bring yourself to play them. Civilization 5's diplomacy (in larger games) is appallingly bad, while Civilization 4 suffers from debilitating stacks of doom and fundamentally strange combat (why are catapults suiciding themselves in combat, and why are helicopter gunships vulnerable to longbowmen?). No matter how good the rest of the game is, you can't break something essential like combat or diplomacy.Note large Civ5 rant from above for more details.
- The most frustrating thing about most 4X games is the colony rush; some games, like Endless Space, do a really good job of limiting your ability to expand (given a large enough map), but otherwise the game is often decided by the map dumping too many good planets close to one player, or for a player happening upon a good planet before his rival can reach it. Civilizations games have a logical counter to expanding too fast, but the AI doesn't seem to care and rushes anyways (meaning you get less territory, while the AI's growth is stunted to greater detriment). The only way to counter overcolonizing AI is to be militantly-aggressive.
- I hate it when culture mechanics are arbitrary. If the peace-loving Altarians are overrun by Drengin culture while they are at war, their planets shouldn't defect unless they were conquered from another empire's culture. That culture should also be assimilated over time, resulting in closer affinity to your own culture. The values of a faction should greatly impact what factions they are able to culturally-defect to, not to mention aspects such as approval, loyalty structures, and garrisons affecting that chance. Civ3 had the most frustrating examples of these, where cities would defect right after you conquered them, while you were still at war.
- Another thing that drives me nuts in 4X games is when there is too much of a tradeoff in military vs territory production (buildings vs units). I don't like having to entirely halt civic production in order to build a military and falling behind AIs still in peacetime, or alternatively being perpetually vulnerable to attack while my aggressive rival becomes technologically-stunted. There need to be ways to build units without ceasing your territory's development (aka drafting units, building militias, hiring mercenaries, etc).
1. The only game that comes into my mind when it comes to good diplomacy is Seven Kingdoms. The enemy AI was smart enough to use diplomacy as a means to win but was random enough in its approach to not be fully exploitable. Some notable features of the diplomacy were:
Looking forward any new feature in diplomacy needs to serve as a means to cooperate with the AI. What I haven't really seen from other games is to communicate attack and defenses plans even on basic level with the AI
2. There is practically no sweet spot to the number of turns (chess can be won in a few turns while I remember having several hundred in GC2 that was still ok). As long as new tech can be researched, new building can be built and the AI is smart enough to keep the player from hitting "Next turn" until he wins, any number of turns can fly
3.
Good strategy game
Bad strategy game
All in all a strategy game needs to:
1. Field opposing AI players that can and will win a lot of games. The player needs to loose a lot to appreciate the times when he is winning and this needs to give sense to the decisions.
2. The reason for winning or loosing a game needs to mostly come from player decisions. There can be some random elements but the AI needs to have the same possibilities and limitations to prove the decisions wrong or give the satisfaction of victory
[1. What specific features of diplomacy do you traditionally like the most? I want you to be as specific as you can be. Which parts of diplomacy from any game do you like the most? What parts do you remember long after playing the most?]
I like the different type of treaties you can make with others both in MP and in Single Player (they should be the same.) Such as:
Peace Treaty - You formally agree to not start a shooting war for so many turns. The length of time should be adjustable based on the negotiation.
Economic Treaty - This will yield money and depending on the type of government and economic system will vary on how profitable it is.
Cultural Treaty - If culture is a faction in this game (have not gotten the game yet so I'm not sure) then this will promote cultural influence on a nation but it goes both ways depending on how strong ones culture is.
Research Treaty - Same as Economic except it is for Research.
Non-Aggression pact - Your not allies per say but your one step below. Your Relations is greatly improved with the other nation. And you will not attack that nation unless of coarse they attack you.
Alliance: You are buddies. You can go into each other space. You can benefit from any space stations that your ally has (get what ever bonus that your ally normally gets from his stations.) if your fleet is attacked and your allies fleet is adjacent to it then they are pulled into the battle with your. Also very important, your ally will declare and wage war against your enemies just as you will his. This should be an automatic trigger. But it should be easy to see who your potential ally is at war with before you agree to an alliance.
** All treaties should be set for so many turns based on what both sides agree on. And it should be flexible. ****
Also when you make a treaty with a AI (or even a player) for so many turns then that should last that many turns before you can break it or do something else with it. In Warlock 1 it was very irritating when you make an alliance (non-aggression pact) with a Wizard and then a turn or two later they declare war on you. It kind of made Treaties useless. So I purpose that when you make a peace treaty for say 10 turn then you cannot attack that nation for a minimum of 10 turns now the treaty should stay in effect until it is changed but the number of turns that you negotiated for should be the minimum number of turns that you have to honor the treaty. Now you could add a racial/national trait that will allow you to cut this time back which could be interesting for bad guy type races.
Also you should be able to trade stuff like Tech, Ships, Planets, Space Stations, Money, Research, Items (it the game has them.) But do this in a way to where the AI won't get ripped off. In one of my All time favorite TBS games Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic you could trade everything so to cheat the AI you could just trade all the AI's cities and Magic items and spells for a lump sum of money and the devastate him. Big exploit. Of course I made sure when trading that I always was fair.
[2. Looking back, how many turns do your favorite games last? This is important to know the specific number of turns the game in Question lasted.]
I prefer huge maps in both MP and SP so I have no problem with hundreds if not thousands of turns. In fact I don't like quick gams on smaller maps. Gives too much of an RTS feel and I don't like RTS games with a couple of exceptions, (Homeworld, Total War series, King Arthur series (basically fantasy Total War)
And yes on those long games I do like Tactical combat where I command the battles ass in the AOW series. And I NEVER use Auto-resolve combat. I like combat. Even in MP games as long as I can either see the combat happening or I can do things with my Kingdom while the battle is going on.....
[3. Consider all The 4X strategy games that you have ever played. How do you define what is a good strategy game or a bad one? To you what makes one strategy game good and another one bad? Consider different memories you have of those games can you remember the parts that made you enjoy that game the most?]
Well as I said before my favorite game series was AOW (and AOW3 which just came out is at the top of the list,) Civ series with CIV5 being my favorite due to the combat being more fun than in previous CIV games, Warlock 1 and 2 (Fantasy CIV5) Galciv2 and MOO (the best space TBS games so far.) The only problem I have with GALCIV2 was that it did not have any tactical combat except the lame movie which you had no control over.
I like TBS 4x strategy games and do not like (with the exceptions I listed above) click-fest RTS games. I prefer TBS 4x games with Tactical Combat that I can control no matter how large the game is because TC is usually the funniest aspect of the game for me (Hence why I love AOW)
Now the more races/nations that can play at once the better
A wide verity of Map sizes the better (and there should be Gigantic maps my favorite)
Also there should be a user friendly editor that does not require you to take classes in programing languages.
This editor should have the ability to create new races/nations and new units with the ability to color them how you like and a easy way to ad picks of them to the game.
GC2 was great as far as creating races but a little difficult in setting up unique ships for those races (at least I did not know how to do it without actually playing the race and creating ships for them in game on the ship editor kinda tedious. I'm sure there was a way to do this but it was not user friendly. I had up to 30 custom races in GC2 and I hope to be able to create that many in GC3 (And of coarse I will have to have the Federation. Looking forward to creating Star Trek and Star War ships)
I would like to say that one of the coolest aspects of GC2 was the ship creator. I spend more than have my playing time with the game in the Ship creator.
Probably useless to reply this late, but...
specific features of diplomacy
IMO, 4X diplomacy/spying is really too straightforward, compared to the shenanigans that (so even a mild history interest tells me) goes on in the real world.I haven't really enjoyed it in any game I've tried.
Things I'd like to have to make diplomacy more interesting:
*Cold War: These guys are the Enemy, but fighting straight on is too costly. Let's just focus on having our allies beat THEIR allies, for now.
*Fake War: "Sorry, we have to declare war against you or the Drengin will invade. But, er, we still LIKE you, so could we keep it as non-hostile as possible? Say, do you have a planet you could LET us invade? We can evacuate your population afterwards." (Bonus points if you can have a FAKE fake war, where you betray your "fake" enemy)
*Secret Deals: These guys are officially neutral to each other, but... aren't they actually pretty chummy? Where is player 1 getting his [strategic resource] from? And those "pirates" over there are raiding MY trade route, but not player 2, who also passes through their territory...And the way player 1 made his ally [Minor Race] declare war against the superior Player 2, so they could retaliate and gobble up those juicy planets without the galactic senate interfering? SUSPICIOUS.
*Spying on the meetings of others: With a spy in the right place, you can not only get the details of secret deals, you ALSO have a great opportunity to see their ambassadors interact with each other - possibly with scripted sequences inserted, for characterization bonus.
*Galactic Senate Shenanigans: "It has come to our attention that use of Lasers III are degrading the galactic environment. Therefore anyone using those components will be facing economic sanctions... What, those are your main weaponry? What a COINCIDENCE! Now please disassemble your war fleet."
*Quests: "Yes, our races are at war... But as a private individual, if you do me this favor, I can pull strings to make our representative make a proposal of your choice in the GC..."
*Empire Split: Like the Romans did; when your empire gets too cumbersome, split off a large part as its own independent empire with automatic initial alliance, and a big bonus to diplomacy for being the same race. (Some civilizations may naturally do this often, existing as a fluid federation of different states.)
how many turns do your favorite games last?
Checking my savegames, 500-800. Generally, I go for long games, taking the time I need to dominate, research the racial tech I want to explore......and then I'm done with that race and don't play it again for years. (For this reason, I tend not to touch 4X campaigns.)
Well, the first thing I look at is the civ editor. Stars! comes to mind.I want replay value; multiple different playstyles, and several different plausible options when it comes to things like ship components and planetary buildings. If there's one obvious optimal solution, it gets boring, especially if I have to do it over and over again as with colony build queues. (Though GalCiv2 was better than most there, because building placement mattered, what with different tile bonuses, and the unique buildings you could only have one of. If you were to add stuff like, say, certain buildings giving bonuses to buildings in neighboring tiles, it might even become puzzle-like enough to be fun.) The most fun is usually when I can connect several pieces of information together and go: With this racial bonus, and this research path, and this wonder, I SHALL BECOME INVINCIBLE! MWAHAHA! (Actual success of the fiendish plan is not necessary, though nice. The joy is in coming up with the idea in the first place.)
So basically, a good strategy game, to me, is one where you make interesting decisions, you don't get bothered with uninteresting decisions, and where circumstances permit clever plans that can result in a decisive advantage, as opposed to conquest by rote.
I literally lol'd at that statement. So I like it.
1.) For starters I love the initial greetings - some are funny and some are great snark! Really sets the mood in relations, lol. More seriously, I always wheel and deal tech for tech+money+influence and even treaties. (Love the diverse treaties and wish there were more options in GC.) I work to gain an advantage in diplomacy skill to master this, and I always keep in touch with minor races for special deals that could tip the balance in my favour. To that end I try to protect some minors races militarily so they are good neighbours and very willing to trade. In general, once I am ahead in weapons tech, I find I can gain quite an advantage at the diplomatic table, and exploit that thoroughly. I also seek alliances, and often indulge in provoking Empire A to attack Empire B on the other side of the map so as to keep them both very busy while I quietly build up my forces...
2.) Approximately 300 turns or less. That's 6 or less Gal Civ years. Any longer and I start to loose interest/become impatient to finish.
3.) 4X...
Explore - My favourite stage of a 4X game! Sending out scouts to discover the ""lay of the land" ans its secrets, and meet neighbours, is a huge attraction of a game for me!
Expand - My second favourite stage in a 4X game. In GC2 I love that there is a second wave of colonization with the discovery of extreme colonization techs. So if tech factors into multiple stages of expansion in 4X games, then I am a very happy player!
Exploit - Capitalizing on resources is a great challenge and optimizing their development to facilitate growth mid-game is particularly fun when new exploits are discovered during the course of a game. It is, however, quite satisfying when the exploitation is "finished". That is when I feel I am at the final stage of a game and I am ready to fulfill my victory objective.
Exterminate - the most touchy one for me as I'm not a fan of total annihilation, I would rather to beat my rivals so they are weak and willing to surrender, or give in to vassalage, instead of wiping them out (I typically leave them their last city or world for them to sulk on). Is it quite satisfying to watch rivals bow to you and/or plead for mercy. I am the merciful kind, lol. It's a laugh to see some rivals extoll your virtues once you have them at the point of your sword! Winning with allies is fun too - a team victory is very satisfying after a long complicated game!
The big negative in 4X games that I don't want to see: The End Game Slog. Nothing's worse than a highly repetitive process of fighting and/or pressing the next turn button to get to the end when you know you have won a long time ago.
Wow lots of detailed answers.
Just a few comments on diplomacy;
i) The more forms of treaty formal and informal the better.
ii) I like the ability to influence an AI by direct action, and indirect - e.g. insult/attack a mutual threat
iii) I like the ability to gauge an AIs view/relationship with other AIs and to be able to influence this as well
iv) AIs should play for second place as well, not just seek to win. They should accept winning as part of an alliance as a "win" even if this means that the human player beats the game
v) I like to see logic from AI players. The AI players need a sense of self preservation. They should not start wars that they can never hope to win - if they can snatch a resource etc and then make peace, fine, but starting an unwinable war with the biggest power in the game just spoils the sense of immersion in the game. Join an alliance, don't just commit suicide, or else become a vassal and think of rebelling later, but please don't just commit suicide. When at war, AI players should not have to accept any offer of peace, but if they refuse a generous peace when clearly losing a war they should face revolution if they insist on throwing away planet after planet. They should agree to technolodgy swaps that are in their favour. They should work with the human player if another AI player is about to wipe them out - the AIs need to be designed to seek to survive the game and not to just either stop the human player winning or seek the victory conditions for themselves. This would make them seem more "real" in my opinion.
Ian
1. I want the diplomacy as important as the combat and other ways of playing in order to achieve victory. This was one of the reasons I didn't like SoaSE a lot (because on multiplayer, militar power beats everything).
2. SoaSE has no turns, so... I think I don't have a specific answer about this.
3.Unexpected, new things each time I've played. Like discovering ruins I didn't see before, or something like that: that's good for me. And something bad... Having somewhat "unrealistic" things, like the Tax method from Distant Worlds (You put 0% taxes in a world, and absolutely everyone is happy? what?).
3.b. Okey, we are playing a sci-fi game. I know there's a bunch of "unrealistic" things here, but that economical thing just put me off. Looking on GalCiv3, I see Iridium Corporation are like free-market, Neoliberalism guys: Maybe it would make sense for this race that everyone is happy without taxation, but maybe for other races, who cares more for population's wellfare (Altarian?) it's different. I think it would be awesome to take into account that everybody dislikes taxes, but it they are put efficiently, can make everybody happier that if they were with no taxes. Don't take this as an ideological debate, I just want this game's economy to be interesting .
1. potentially complex and multifaceted diplomacy where it's more than just a way to abuse the ai into not attacking you. I recently had a game where I was playing Iridium on team 2 with yor on team2 with me, drengin/krynn team1, terram/altarian team3. I was playing heavy trader/manufacturing with good research capabilities. Basically building tall & swiped a couple planets from near yor territory simply because "ooh look at the planet class there!" By the time I had built more colony ships & got them there, the yor had colonized several neighboring planets. Not wanting to lose my planets, I put some influence structures down. Little to my knowledge at the time, the yor were at war with the terrans & not doing too well (being made worse by my inadvertently taking over 5-6 class 4-8 planets over a few dozen turns while it tried building a starbase or two for production). Each of the planets I flipped was basically undeveloped (a factory or two & population improvement thing at most iirc). I had a trade route with the altarians (never met the terrans at this point) when I first settled the large planets & quickly setup 2 more with the yor plus a free trade agreement by the time I took over a sizable chunk of the yor empire that I never really wanted There was a decent gap between my newly annexed little cluster & the rest of yor's planets. Had I been offered the planets I took early on, I likely would have been happy contributing all sorts of goodies towards the yor's war effort. I didn't have any military worth noting (lost defenders & such), but I'd have been happy to give some credits/research units/etc, or if allowed even build a shipyard & contributed a % of my output for some planets to yor's control for their war effort. The game is still going, so I don't know how things will turn out. with the beta AI, I'm hoping that I can use this to spin across the galaxy & push the yor to declare peace before the last straw falls, maye gift some hastily built influence starbases on conquered races later. sadly, I have no way (to my knowledge) of setting that sort of plan as more than just gift a whole army on someone & hope for the best, without the ability to plan things like that, it's difficult to let any of the races recover from a good butkicking
2
3. I don't know if it's any one thing, but some things I tend to dislike are AI's that will start wars with traders or vastly more powerful foes where the power lies in potential rather than standing army just "because". I'd much rather see them knock on the door with a nonagression type treaty offered in exchange for trade routes/free trade/etc or somethingas the opening salvo
1) I haven't met an option I didn't like having; the more the merrier. The flavor and characterization of Alpha Centauri stand out, though it was lacking in features. I hope that GC3 allows for interesting bilateral (or even multilateral) relations beyond war/trade/peace. The ability to disagree without going to war would be great.
2) I can't give a number, but I tend to like fewer, longer games where I can really spread out and experience everything the game has to offer.
3) A good 4x provides quality context for my actions, Moo2, Alpha Centauri, Civ series. Gameplay alone is not (quite) enough, I need something in the story or races to get attached to. The Space Empires series was mechanically sound, to a degree, but felt sterile and generic. Likewise Endless Space was reasonably solid but provided no context that I cared about. The Galciv series provided interesting races and an adequate story as a backdrop for solid gameplay and thus I spent a long time with it.
The more individual a race is in its interactions with me. That is the more a race sounds like it's own race, own personality, own text, with its own goals and the less like a generic AI the better. Galciv had some of this in ideologies for example but it could very much be improved on to be specific to individual race types.I like multi-alliances, and interactions like the UP, unpredictable dipolmacy. Space Empires V almost did it, they almost made multi alliances a real possibility but they ended up buggy and not working right. That way you could have regional alliances, or alliances between groups of races that share common ideologies like traders, or peaceful researchers etc with their own internal diplomacy. To macro it you could just have a diplomacy option called, invite race into alliance, this sets up an alliance between all three races (if accepted by all).
They don't finish. They last as long as possible. I like epic games , in the early galciv games where I was able to put all the AI in together, till that was patched out to be made impossible in future expansions.
I like to look at the map each time and be surprised. I like to slowly explore the galaxy and see the AI doing their own thing, wars across the map playing out and feeling a small part of it. AI's pulling me in two directions, both wanting me in their alliance.I like to see modded races behaving differently, space empires IV did this brilliantly, by allowing modders to make their own AI for their races and then seeing two modders with unique AI's and ship designs battling it out. Galciv 3 would benefit in giving people at least limited control in for example the diplomatic modifiers for each race. ++ for trade, -- or --- for close borders, even + for close borders, the more control you can give them under the hood the better.I like to be surprised during gameplay. Galciv pioneered many types of events, small planet wide ones, UP votes, and galactic ones, I loved that kind of gameplay back in the day.
I like to have plenty of options with dealing with each situation. The more gameplay options you can give me the better, starbases, influence, military, diplomacy, (espionage would be a nice addition).
I like to feel like the good guy uniting the galaxy into larger alliances, then facing another large alliance, or I like to play the conqueror and see the radical difference in how the game players out and how AI's interact with me, I loved the way several smaller races would unite to fight my mega evil race as a random event in the older galcivs.
I love that we can tweak map types still and want to see more options, for example bonus tiles per planet (either more tiles or just more bonuses +1/+2 etc), more extreme options either end of the rare and abundant options for everything, very rare, ultra rare, and plentiful, extreme etc.
1. If I had to chose one thing, I would say diplomatic initiative. I like it when the AI contacts me often for various reason and also when they do funny things.
2. Can't say really
3. I like a game that flows well, with very few annoyances, a good challenge and multiple ways to play. One little but annoying glitch or defect in the game can totally ruin what would otherwise be a good game. In this sense I like when games are well polished.
I may be too late so hopefully this post gets read. ^^
1. But being a longtime 4x gamer especially concerning those of the space opera type, diplomacy and interactions between alien races and the way this is handled can easily make or break a game for me. Extreme depth isnt totally neccesary but long as the AI can exploit all its parts fully and intelligently I definitely appreciate in-depth diplomacy. But also I demand an even playing field above all else. If there is any mechanic that gives the player an advantage simply for being the player and not ai that definitely hurts the immersion for me.
One big example of this is your very own GalCiv 2 where your technology level down the diplomacy branch literally makes it easier to coax the AI into shitty deals. Example.. Let's say I'm playing any of the other races besides the terrans, well the terrans have the super diplomat ability which nets them better deals in diplomacy.. Long as it's not actually against the player controlled race itself, since I have the ability to decide on a deal simply based on the terms and how it fits in my strategy instead of an arbiturary modifier. I know the modifier doesn't help to an extreme amount but this has been an annoyance I find hard to ignore. I just want my opponents to decide on terms purely based on their judgement, calculations, and priorities. Not that, THEN have some articifial modifer put on top of that.
Therefore what I hope to expect in Galciv 3 is this mechanic totally replaced with something much more like how Sword of the Stars 2 handled diplomacy. That's how I think a good diplomacy system is handled (even though their ai simply sucked to much to use it properly). So like SotS2, when you tech down the diplomacy branch, instead of increasing some modifier artificially making deals easier to net (except towards players) have diplomatic interactions restricted based on your tech level and starbase upgrades/planetary improvements through a point system which will simulate the ability of your civ to streamline the bureacracy involved and the organization needed for the lobbying, transportation, and arranging the contacts needed to get it through. Like sending out a new treaty or offer would require a certain amount of diplomatic points to be spent thats generated by your tech level and improvements, and the more diplomatic improvements you have, the more of these points you can have stored at one time. This will keep both the AI and the player from articifically abusing diplomacy to get an edge in the game and level the fields a bit depending on how much you research and focus on diplomatic efforts. In other words you can only do as much as your improvements, tech level, and point generation allows, which at times could require multiple turns to acquire the points needed to carry out the offers if you have few embassys, low diplomatic tech, and are just racially poor at diplomacy.
Also of course the AI can spend points to produce a counter offer more appropriately fitting their desires, and depending on the personality of a race, this can keep going back and forth until one side eventually gives in on a deal either because they don't have the diplomatic points to go any further or they just decide to settle with it.
Your ability to store and generate the points required by this will determine whether you can try to get a better deal or not, or counter deals with something more preferable for that matter, and effect what offers you can make simply based on whether you can afford to put the points aside. This will work a little like influence, HELL influence can be the points spent instead of a secondary item to keep track of. This way a player diplomatically skilled could offer another player or AI these points to help them talk their way out of a hairy situation if they don't have the diplomatic resources to carry it out themselves (which would also require the civ offering the influence to spend a little themselves to see it carry through.). This will give influence a far more complex and interesting importance. Do you decide to save your influence to provide leverage in the next United Planets meet and propose items for it? Or do you spend them on the lobbying and bureaucracy required to pass that meaty economic treaty with that economically strong neighbor.
Sorry you me to be specific lol, I care about my diplomacy, I want to see it done right for once.
2. My games generally last for hundreds of turns, I go for the long lasting epics where the game has the opportunity to change drastically over the course of the games life. Those are the games I also have most fun at.
3. What makes the best strategy game in my opinion is one that doesn't cut corners in strategic or tactical options and allows me to tell my own story from the very start to end. One of the biggest ones that I feel cause a lot of them to fall short for me are the methods of conquest. There needs to be an absurd amount of means to acquire what you want with some being much better under certain circumstances than others. This is one reason I love the Civ and Gal Civ series so much. There are so many ways I can gain control of that city or planet that I never once feel restrained in my quest for global or galactic dominition, both peacefully and aggressively. And while I'm on the topic of aggressive, planetary conquest through invasion is an extremely important aspect to include and I consider only the best 4x space games give a considerable amount of attention to. IDC if you have the prettiest, most cinematic space battles this side of the galaxy, if you tell me you're a 4x game set in space and your only means of capturing planets is glassing it from orbit I'm just going to keep walking down the isle. Though others will argue that conquest through invasion wouldn't plausibly exist in the future for one reason or another (usually to just to defend their favorite 4x game) I for one believe that unless you actually want that planet, structurally intact, habitable, and as untouched as possible then you are going to be as surgical as possible and invade that shit. Like even now, just because we have air control and nukes it does NOT and has not eliminate infantry tactics. Period.
And about telling my own story, if a 4x restricts players by putting way too much emphasis on their own lore and not providing enough options for players to tailor their games as they see fit then that's another game I'm probably going to avoid. About the only thing I didn't like in that respect to galciv 2 was that it started you out with a colony ship, survey ship, and miner right from the start. What if I don't like how the starter ships look? What if I don't like their design? And what if I didn't even want to build a mining ship until a little later? At least just have the players start out with a survey ship and nothing else. The more control I have over how my game starts the more I feel that that civ is truly mine. (That's one thing I hated about SotS 2 was they forced you to start with 3 precolonized worlds for no reason. Even after I modified the save file to have all the players start with one the empires played out just fine, so why did I HAVE to start with 3?)
Sorry for the length and thanks for the read, I just finally want a game that for once touches me in ALL the right places, not just a few of them, lol. So far 0 have done that with only Distant Worlds actually coming real close.
I skip the other 2 questions since I don't remember turn numbers of past games played, and in case of diplomacy what comes to my mind first is stuff I don't like (for example in GC II that you could go to war against the same enemy right after peace was negotiated, or that even races you had on the verge of total destruction were unwilling to make peace at all in some situations).
So to q3:
1. The whole exploration part - making the first steps, finding out what's going on, where potential enemies are, discover stuff like anomalies in GC or goody huts in Civ is always one of my favourite parts. That being said in GC II I often found myself "hunting" anomalies, which could become boring if it's too much (though IIRC occurance is customizable, so this would not be an issue. In general love to build a large empire out of almost nothing, so I prefer a small start like in GC or Civ to one with lots of units/locations etc right from the begining.
2. What makes strat games good/bad for me: I play usually either historical stuff, or scifi themed games like GC. Since historical accurary/plausibility/immersion plays no role here, it's mostly the overall depth plus a certain "coolness" factor I want in my games. For GC the "cool" stuff is certainly ship design, and the variety of civs. I also love games that are open to modding.
3. What I absolutely do not like is when there are - seemingly - artificial obstacles or limitations slapped onto the player to make up for an otherwise not very challenging/interesting gameplay or a weak AI.
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