Case for a Fallen Enchantress – Legendary Heroes Expansion
1) Firstly sales/economic.
Frogboy already announced on one of the journals that the Downloadable content packs sell really well and are a great source of income for LH.
Secondly I’m willing to bet that the original income from hard sales of Fallen Enchantress & Legendary Heroes was below initial expectations because War of Magic didn’t meet expectations and Stardock gave out free copies of FE & LH to a large customer base.
I think this is enough reason to argue that an expansion pack around the $40-50 range would generate sufficient income if the content included was appropriate to the cost of the expansion
2) Development
-I would argue that expansions are a lot easier for any game producer than trying to make a brand new product. Why? Because the underlying engine, graphics support, AI & other systems are in place. Expansions allow for more development on improving existing features and adding new content – this gives reviewers and players much more to talk about also.
-An expansion imo carries much less financial risk and risk of a disastrous launch. I.e the dev team is not under huge pressure to build and release a new & largely untested fully functioning game to the publishers because of an underestimation in the required development time.
3) Marketing
-Expansions already have community and public support
-An expansion is going to get much more publicity than a big patch (2.0) or a series of downloadable packs.
-An expansion is a very powerful means to really ramp up public support for a game. I explored with Civ 5 Vanilla in a net café. It didn’t really do much for me so I didn’t bother buying it. I happened to read the reviews on BNW a few years later and that really excited me so I went and bought both expansions simultaneously….
-Expansions often have better reviews than new games. How many ambitious widely anticipated strategy games have had disastrous or poor launches? Remember Sim City 5, C&C4, War of Magic & Civ 5?
Regarding Civ 5 on release. It was pretty scaled back and received a lot of criticism from disappointed players. Gods and Kings expansion brought it up to a level that many players decided was acceptable with the fantastic Religions feature, but the second expansion Brave New World was what really defined it as what I think is one of the greatest 4X games in history.
To me Legendary Heroes feels like it is sortof around the Gods and Kings level or perhaps a bit below. It functions and its mostly fun but there still feels like there are many areas that need improvement before it is something that really raises the bar for the 4X experience. Many of these I would argue are fixable. Sure patches & purchasable content packs will help move the game in that direction but why stop there? An expansion promises you the financial return and allocates the dev team the sufficient resources to really bring things up to speed.
Before I go on I would argue that an expansion should not include naval warefare, ships and sailing/moving between continents unless the dev team was really sure they had the resources to do a good job of it. My reasoning is that it will take a lot of resources to implement sailing and moving across oceans & AI etc for sea battles and I’m not sure if it will really end up a shining point for the game.
Don’t get me wrong naval battles and sea exploration is interesting but it is VERY difficult to do well and I can’t help but think the dev team would be better putting their resources in things that would enhance areas of the game that already are in place.
Part 2. What features/content should a Legendary Heroes expansion include?
Firstly a simple title for an expansion could be Legendary Heroes Reborn or perhaps something more mystical and darker that represents a new threat to the world; Legendary Heroes- Elemental Twilight or Legendary Heroes – the Darkening
The premise for the expansion could be this. Ok these ideas aren’t all that original but nothing in the fantasy genre is anymore……So lets go with something that works imo.
A new continent has been discovered by the 2 factions: Kingdoms & Empires that was apparently unscathed by the Cataclysm. This prompts a rush from each race to sail to & conquer the new continent by the usual 4X means. Upon the discovery of the new continent there would be a darker undertone in the scenario as a new threat is discovered that has lured the Enchanters to the new lands for an as yet unknown sinister purpose.
The new continent has a very different climate & geography to the known world of Elemental. Instead of vast open grasslands & plains we see vast jungles, volcanoes, swamps (again), tropical beaches, coral reefs and vast mountain ranges.
The Most important features to the Expansion Pack could include
1) A new scenario
2) New continent to play sandbox games that has lots of new exciting lands to explore, quests to complete, dangerous wildlands and other phenomena to experience. This includes new resources some very rare and valuable.
3) More monsters, more treasures, improvement to goodie huts. More variety in monsters is always good. Lets have more like the Banshee that are immune to physical damage, say Wraiths & Death Knights – 2 of my MoM favourites. Oh and Phantom Warriors & Phantoms Beasts please! They were some of the coolest monsters in MoM and their ability to ignore armour made them very interesting to fight.
We do also need more variety in early game treasures. Throwing daggers? Well why not enchanted throwing daggers that will always hit the enemy in the eye and blind them? Or flaming throwing daggers that deal a magic attack to help deal with the increase in physically immune monsters…
Some of the goodie huts are a bit lacklustre, the Ancient Library – surely there can be a bit more in these than some research points, how about a very rare spell or a scroll
4) Improvement to terrain
A big one, if you can’t turn the world into hexes can you at least rotate things into an isometric view and get rid of the jagged 90°angles that we see everywhere in the rivers, the coasts etc….. Can you make the terrain more gradual and meandering. Coasts need some beaches to access lagoons and shallow coastal waters which units can move across to access atolls.
5) New Battlegrounds. Now we have battles in shallow coastal tiles and shallow lagoons around coastal atolls and coral reefs that are frequently inhabited by Kraken & crocodiles. These are positioned around the edge of the continent.
For anyone who’s played Total Annihilation Kingdoms and remembered the tropical maps with the beaches and coral atolls you can fight over. That’s the inspiration here.
6) More immersive city economy & civilization management. This would include an expansion to the existing city level up tree.
Currently the economy works like this.
Towns provide gold for units & food to grow larger cities, Conclaves provide research and mana & Fortresses build armies. It’s very basic and needs a simple overhaul.
Now most buildings will require upkeep so you have to prioritize which ones you need more over others. Population will now produce gildar, possibly around 0.25 gildar for every 10 residents. This means that population growth is now very important as you will not be able to afford a lots of armies and infrastructure without the population to tax. This also makes Towns much more useful as they grow the fastest and have access to a majority of the financial buildings available.
Tax rates are changed slightly. No tax & Low tax options are removed, just normal and above. Currently you can pick the wealthy trait for 500 gold and farm monsters for cash and have no tax rate and get an unfair advantage to city building speed. Therefore there will always be some tax and therefore some unrest
Unrest is modified. Now if you have negative unrest it becomes positive and grants that city a boost to research, productivity and growth! UI will show red for negative and green for positive.
Unrest will now have local city and global empire ramifications. If a local city has very high unrest than riots may break out or the city may become neutral.
If global average is high than there is the chance for bandits & rebels to appear in your surrounding areas and attack your resources.
7) New City Option: The Capital
Right now we have 2 types of settlements: towns, conclaves & fortresses. Now we have the capital. It will have access to all of the town specific buildings and most of the buildings specific to the Fortress & Conclave. Essentially it is your mega-settlement and the one that will really drive you’re economy. It won’t have the unique level up pathway the Conclave & Fortress has so it’s not quite as good at research and military as those cities but it’s still very useful.
You may choose a Capital City only once when any settlement reaches level 2.
The Capital will have its own unique upgrade Pathway. Many of its building choices will relate to your Sovereigns Palace and various upgrades to the Palace which can help you win diplomatically, store treasures, create fame to attract merchants and mercenaries, create a Praetorian Guard that defends your cities (better than militia) & better administer your people/economy etc….
8) Improved UI, AI, diplomacy. Nuff said. A bit more individual personality between sovereigns if that is ok. Civ 5 is a good model here. Some Civ 5 AIs like Shaka/Zulu are all out warmongers but if you have the opportunity to befriend him by giving him your religion he can be very loyal.
I notice a lot of Stardock’s diplomacy just rates on military strength. AIs will be friendly if your powerful & hate you if your weak….. That does need to change. Not all AIs should immediately dislike you if you are weak….
9) 2 New races (I’m going to say Lizardmen & a race of humanoid trolls that is similar to the Warcraft DarkSpear trolls) that aren’t part of any faction.
Lizardmen will have an Aztec feel with pyramid like cities and a strong connection to shamanism and special magic arts. Their reptilian skin should make them hard to kill.
The humanoid trolls would have a Cambodian feel with lots of stone structures like Wats. They would have their own well developed magic arts in voodooism and other witch doctors etc….
10) New magic schools & new spell trees that reach beyond the Life, Death & 4 elements. These would still use the Elemental magic shards but they are not bound to 1 sphere entirely as they represent more shamanistic/voodoo magic that uses a variety of spheres and arts. These new schools can be unlocked 1 level at a time (as the current spheres do)
Shamanism is a connection to the spirits and elements of the earth. The spells will focus heavily on healing arts and calling upon the elements to unleash destruction upon their enemies. Many shaman spells are amplified by controlling elemental spheres.
Voodism has a focus on invoking the spirits of the dead to arise in anger and curse the foes of the caster. Only the Lizardmen or Trolls can use this magic. The spirits of the dead can also imbue the caster with great power. Many Voodoo spells require life and death shards to amplify power. Note that voodism is unique to Trolls & Lizardmen and these are the only races & it is the only tree that can operate both death & life shards simultaneously.
11) New Character/Hero pathways beyond the Defender, Warrior, Assassin, General & Mage - The Shaman and the Druid. Only Lizardmen & Troll humanoids can pick these 2 hero types. They can be recruited by the Kingdoms or Empires.
The Shaman is a rather jack-of-all trades hero tree that heavily utilizes the 4 elemental spheres for magical spells, healing & elemental attacks. The shaman will fight like a beserker warrior/mage hybrid with unique shaman spells. A shaman hero will have special access to the Shamanistic arts spell tree.
The Druid is a shape-shifting being who can transform into a variety of animal forms to access special attacks and abilities. The druid in humanoid form can cast spells. The druid is only available to Trolls & Lizardmen.
Also the Assassin tree needs to make archer heroes more useful
The General tree needs some attention too. It has some great benefits like reducing unrest but if a General hero sits in a city he/she won’t get any experience. These passive traits need to include free experience per turn so they can be used as a full city administrator….
12) New Wonders and a new video scene for each Wonder: Something to reward the Civilization junkies like me and offer a little more immersion
13) Improvements to the fame system and more random events. Now fame will give a chance for merchants to appear at your capital selling valuable magic items, mercenaries that wish to serve under you and even for mysterious visitors that offer rewards for special quests. Now fame is something very useful.
Some more random events wouldn’t hurt, maybe a volcano or fissure opening up from the earth that belches out elementals. A break in the space-time continuum that causes the corpses of the dead to rise unleashing hordes of undead on the world…. MoM’s Ancient God that would give you a free magic item was always a favourite of mine.
14) Balance overhaul to unit weapons & traits.
Most of the weapons feel too similar. The crystal weapons should deal more defense piercing spell damage that makes them a really viable option compared to metal weapons.
Some of the traits are too powerful. I always find myself choosing underdog (+3 attack to high level units) and constitution. On higher difficulties I can still neglect military technology and continue going into the Civic techs to get the co-operation bonus and increases in army size. With 4 individuals per squad with underdog & constitution I can usually hold my own against AIs that are a full tier ahead of me in technology.
I would be tempted to make crystal much rarer and require crystal weapons to use some metal.
Metal can be forged into Steel using a new resource coal at a slower rate than it is mined as metal. Steel would be required to make higher end weapons in the military tech tree.
Shortbows, longbows & crossbows need more variety. Each weapon should have a unique range so each weapon feels distinct from the other. The longbow and crossbow should both be comparably useful weapons with different uses…
15) New Feature: Religion
What do the humanoid races of Elemental worship; Deities, elementals, gods, titans, their ancestors or their sovereign????
Your races religion would be a new feature that would add a new interesting feature. You start a religion by building a temple in your capital to a particular diety. This would provide a variety of bonuses. Your sovereign may find a tablet in their exploring that has an inscription to a diety that unlocks a particular temple.
Building a temple may invoke a blessing from a particular god, allow for abilities or spells from that god to help you in battle and even be given magical items as a gift as could happen in MoM
Evil races like the Empires could build a temple to worship their sovereigns that reduces unrest?
Hope that creates some inspiration for a Legendary Heroes expansion!
At this point, I don't think a full expansion will occur, they'll support the game via DLC/mini-expansion model like what Paradox does with their games. There is E2015, but that's going to be very different.
I kinda want to see a new Elemental game on the new GalCiv III tech, but that won't be for another 3-4 years at a minimum. I also want to see E2015, because I'd really want to see this world reimagined (I could see something like 7 human "races", with the 5 kingdom races, Krax, and a new human race- and the Fallen races turned into "minor" races- I think that would be kinda neat)
You could then split the 7 human races with different leaders if you needed more players.
Honestly it seems to me like SD is already spreading themselves too thin; and personally I'm tired of constantly anticipating and dreaming about something better - as it is I could really care less about LH2 or any other enhancements to LH with E2015 around the corner. It always feels like I'm just beginning to sink my teeth into the game when SD announces that they've figured out how to make it better, and are working on another new version. This is especially troublesome for modders.
I just want an awesome game that I can play for years, and really build a relationship with. Once we get that game, updates and enhancements will be much appreciated; but until then I'm tired of paying to "fix" or "enhance" the current game, knowing that another is just around the corner. We've already seen the original FE basically be dumped by the way-side, yet still sold? I wouldn't be surprised in the least if this trend continued with LH once E2015 is released. This "pay for an experimental Work In Progress" model really bugs me. It sorta feels like being teased and strung along. IMO a game should be finalized at the end of the design phase, then developed and deployed, and THEN expanded upon. As it is I think SD has too much in the pipeline. I really wish they would focus on a quality, long-term plan; so the ride was less bumpy.
This does not insinuate that I don't think some of the ideas in the OP are good, just that they are not very appealing to me at this point in time. E2015 cannot come soon enough; hopefully it will be the one to stick for a while. Also, I would not pay more than $20 for an expansion: asking the same price for an expansion as for the base game is ludicrous.
All that being said, the potential that this "series" (really just 1 game consistently being "upgraded") has is enormous, and I AM really looking forward to E2015.
I agree with most of your post up until this last bit. Personally I would have much preferred LH2 to what is coming in Elemental 2015. It seems like a very different beast, with all the stuff I like about LH taken out (custom units, tech tree, lots of factions etc). So for me, i'd rather see LH being worked on further via DLC, patches or whatever... and one day a LH2 or similar.... seperate to the Elemental2015 game.
Having said that I don't think an expansion is the way to go for LH at this point, just patch it up and finetune the AI... do Elemental 2015 and give us a ripping LH2 in a couple of years once they're less busy.
Just my thoughts.
Mods and DLC could bring most of the new features you've mentioned...
I want to see E2015 to see how much fun the new concepts are, with a Second Elemental taking the best of both, alongside some small new stuff in a few years. LH does have some residual problems from earlier designs, I think E2015 is a shot at fixing this.
BTW Brad did tweet yesterday that he made a small tweak to monster AI which helps that should go in a future patch.
I hear where you're coming from and I think we are more-ore-less both agreeing on the same thing but just from a different angle. The rush to another new game was what really prompted my thoughts on the thread.
Sure E2015 is around the corner but as you say is it really going to be something that captivates you for years? That's why I would favor an expansion to Legendary Heroes because it still doesn't feel like its completed. Sure E2015 looks like it will have some new things but it will also be an entirely different game from Legendary Heroes.
Honestly I just think an expansion to LH would be better received than an entire new game and largely for the reasons you cite, it's unfair for modders to be given a product that only has a shelf life of a couple of years....
Davrovana - Yeah I agree on that part but why should modders have to perfect a game? I don't mind mods but I would rather the original game be of higher quality to begin with that didn't force players to find mods after about 50 hours of gameplay...
Not trying to be negative towards Stardocks products its just that the rapid release of new strategy games is worrying. I don't like paying $$ for something that isn't a top-of-the line product and in the last few years I've really cut back on buying games because on the whole I've been disappointed with many. I'd rather wait and see if expansions etc come out because often its only after a few years of post-release development does a game really start to shine.
...why should modders have to perfect a game?
It'll never be perfect. I'd suggest you learn the .xml modding of this game, it's not very hard and gives you a lot of control over the engine. Then you'll make it the game you want it to be most.
Any questions, I could help you, or pretty much anyone who frequents the "LH Modding" category.
I know that this is not probably happening soon (or ever).But the release of the source code (allowed for modding only) and/or a second language support (python, lua, etc) would help a lot. Specially for bug fixing and ai, and, of course, additions as well. For me tha game have a strong "unfinished" feeling, that could be vanished away by source release and then company reworking on it for a new great expansion (using the help of the community with the bug fixes, etc).
I think the new game they are working on is gonna be the bread winner, they should prolly allocate most of there resources into it. If it comes out bad it could be bad.
N/A
I think its time they "retire" from FE and focus on E2015.
Recently theres been a huge comeback in turn based and 4x games genre and of modern design(not the classic mechanics) which kinda makes FE obsolete save minority of diehard fans. Ppl change, move on, so do their preferences and perspective. Goes the same for stardock, they need to reinvent or at least refresh...
Hi
Can you elaborate on 4x games with a 'modern design'?
I'd like to know what 'modern design' means as well!
From what i've seen of 4x games lately modern design means very few factions/races to choose from, not a lot of depth or complexity, too much money spent on snazzy graphics and trailers and not enough time on gameplay.
I think SD fears market saturation - aow3, eador, warlck, endless legends... so they want to try sthg different.
I still think that a strong modding system (ex. with acess to source code or at least a second language) could really help LH grow. They already have a very good XML system, and is pretty easy to mod several things in game, I believe this is a strong difference from other games that may be emerging just now...Specially in building a better way of the game code grow (more organized etc), of bugs be fixed, and building a powerful niche of gamers who love this game because they know they are helping to build it, with all the help a good company can give to them
I don't think we'll see an Elemental II until the end of the decade, Stardock only has so many resources they can devote to their own games, and GalCiv III is their main breadmaker on the games side.
If Firaxis did a fantasy TBS, it would do strong numbers. They're the big giant of the genre- it's why Street Fighter outsells the other fighting games, why the Elder Scrolls outsells RPGs, etc.
I am interested how AOW3 turns out when finished.
I play LH and I think "This is pretty fun, but if I could just tweak a few things..."
I play Civ V: BNW and I think "This is spot on."
I have many more hours on Civ V, and still play to this day. LH, not so much, because it is just not quite as complete and polished as I feel it ought to be after four years on the market (I consider LH a direct expansion on Elemental.) I appreciate what Stardock has done for the consumers regarding the Elemental fiasco, so I invested early into E2015. However I will definitely watch and wait on their other franchises like GC3 because I just don't believe they will deliver a top notch product that I will enjoy - unmodded - for years to come.
To be fair, hasn't the civ series had years to perfect their game, while LH has only had 4 years? Yes, LH is derivative of civ, but the fantasy and heroes part makes it different.
Following up Master Of Magic remains a holy grail, and I bet there's a reason for that (not sure what).
Frankly, there isn't anything special or different that needs to be done for this specific niche market (Fantasy 4x) which has been around since the mid-90s (and even a bit before). They just need to keep improving what they already have with patches, DLCs, and expansions. Players will always flock to the best game, no matter how saturated the market is.At this point though, one has to wonder if they haven't found some stuff they are unable to fix or if they believe their current engine has reached its limits. In which case, what they would need is LH II, as E2015 doesn't look like the successor of LH. I mean, you pretty much get a new Civilization every 5 years; why wouldn't it be the same for LH? Then, you could get expansions in-between.Sure, if one searches long enough, they will find a thread stating a lack of programmers or whatnot, but if a fruit is ripe for the taking (As seems to be the case seeing all those new Fantasy 4x), shouldn't you try a bit harder? With E2015, they may manage to do something different and hit a homerun, but if it's that different, who's to say players from LH will adopt it? Continuity isn't a bad thing, as long as you keep improving what you have.Civilization V has 30000 to 40000 players daily. Among that group of players, there are a bunch of players who would play fantasy 4x if they felt the game was better/equal/slightyworse than Civ5. Right now, no fantasy 4x has managed to convince those players to move.Some stats:http://www.steamcharts.com/app/228260#All (Legendary Heroes)http://www.steamcharts.com/app/232050#All (Eador, Masters of the Broken World)http://www.steamcharts.com/app/205990#All (Warlock II: The Exiled)http://www.steamcharts.com/app/10270#All (Disciples III: Reincarnation)http://www.steamcharts.com/app/226840#All (Age of Wonders III)http://www.steamcharts.com/app/289130#All (Endless Legend #EarlyAccess)
Thanks for sharing that. I guess that is sortof what I was getting at, would Civ 5 be attracting around 30,000+ players daily if it wasn't for BNW?
Compared to the state of Civ 5 when it launched it really has matured well.
Regarding Legendary Heroes, lets just say what if instead of releasing multiple $5 download packs (4 for $20) they released an expansion that included the content from the download packs as well as a range of other improvements and some new additions & features to the game for around $30-35 mark. This could include some (not necessarily all) of the thoughts from the OP.
This would only be a bit more expensive than the 4 download packs now but being an expansion it will attract more advertising through publishers and reviewers (GameSpot, Steam etc). I tend to think that this will expand the market reach of the existing product more than a series of download packs will...
Anyway thats my $0.02
expansions > dlcs for sure!
Well , a lot of what would have been in an expansion pack has been given in free updates- so really we've gotten close to the equivalent of a new expansion between all the DLCs, even if some of the DLC content has been of marginal value.
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