Here are my thoughts - I'm not used to having hedgie jungle. We all differ a bit with how we run things (ex - I don't trust Bryff's adc brain, but I generally trust his top lane brain). Anyway, he decides to leave the novelty lane alone which keeps an annie/thresh lane in the game and eventually overpowers us.
I'd be the 1st to admit I did not play well enough. But I disagree with hedgie's decision to not take dragon control from that team. Final comment on this - while I disagree with how hedgie decided to play things, it doesn't mean he's wrong - just that I would have done things differently with a gimmick lane. Completely possible that he did things great and I just played too smeh an adc - so hopefuly this doesn't come across as an f u.
So, i'm not "blaming" the game on you, and i'm under the assumption that you are not blaming the game on me.
i will point out that obviously, it's my job to smite baron and missing a smite on baron does lean more on me making a mistake than anyone else. However, Elise does have much better burst than a 130 AD, 30 AP Skarner. So we're looking at a 70-30 sort of odds. Even though that's in our favor (and my screw up if i miss the smite), turning on the 25% elise when she walks on a trap + not attacking baron when she's about to E in drops that risk to extremely low. Remember also that suppression stop smite so if she comes in, i can ult her and then we're safe to kill her and then baron (i had ult up).
Additionally, i tend to focus much more on tower + kill rotations over dragon rotations. i'm sure you noticed this in my Fizz game as well. Dragons are not "free". There's a pretty heavy risk associated to doing dragon if you're not sure where the entire team is. Generally you end up losing half-2/3rds a creepwave + some health/mana. Many games are lost due to bad dragons. Many less games are lost when you trade a kill + top tower for a dragon.
A TF + TP top against our ignite top means that pressuring botlane just isn't going to work very well. Additionally, since it's Annie, not a "true" ADC, tower and dragon pressure is a lot less important right? If Annie does well in lane (2/0 kind of well, not 10/1), she's going to get kills and have a CS advantage over you, but she isn't going to transition them as much into dragons + towers.
Additionally, even if Annie gets really fed, Skarner really isn't a champ that can do a lot about that. If i ult her, she's probably already unloaded everything onto the team, so it's kind of irrelevant if she's strong/weak. However, a Lux is going to be able to waveclear and keep them from pressuring towers. A good bind is on either TF or Annie should pretty much instantly wipe them.
This is kind of how that game went down:
1- We've got an Annie/Thresh botlane. You start traps, which means your level 1 is super weak. Not sure if that ended up mattering.
2- First ganks:
a- i go top while Bryff is extremely low hp. Bryff kinda just suicides into Darius for the "free" kill. Darius is smart enough to not burn flash, so he's not a free kill. Since Bryff has no TP, and Darius does, Bryff dying is in Darius' favor. Darius gets to TP to a huge creep wave (perhaps my fault for not pushing it into tower correct), and after i do golems/wraiths i come back top and Bryff is level 5 to 3. i manage to burn flash but that is. However, the level descrepancy is a huge issue and will plague bryff for the rest of the game.
b- meanwhile, Elise ganked mid twice. Lux drops down to ~10% hp and loses flash. Elise and TF flashes are down. i end up scaring TF to base. Afterwards, i intercept Elise on the way to ganking top and kill her.
At this point, Lux and TF end up hitting 6 (i give Lux first blue). Even though Lux is a kill + assist up, she's equal in farm.
There's three lanes. Right now top lane is doing pretty bad. i've got a few options:
1- i can continue to camp TF/Lux. (espiecially since Elise is focusing midlane).
2- i can try to recover botlane
3- i can try to recover toplane.
i focused on #1, with a second emphasis on #3.
There is a huge, massive risk with going botlane because of the 4v3/5v3 potential. In fact, the two big mid-game plays that lost us a huge amount of tempo was because i went bot. (once when i came to "protect" you while killing bot tower which just lead to false confidence and us overextending, the second time when Lux+Zyra fucked around with red for half a year while we were dragon and we got aced).
Trying to help Rengar has some of the risks as going botlane, but not quite so bad. It's a 2v2 or 3v2 at worse. Of course, Darius is really good at turning that into a double kill, but we were lucky enough to not have had that happen much that game.
Really, i just should have stayed mid /even more/. This at least would have let us keep some additional dragon pressure (compared to going top) and i could have tried to take early towers mid and hopefully Thresh or Annie would have rotated out of your lane and given you some room.
i do know that your logic that "Rengar is behind, Darius has teleport, we should do dragon so that Darius 'wastes' TP and then Rengar can catch up" is not a very good argument, just because that's a really good way to give Darius a triple while fighting 4v5 + dragon. The only way that could have happened was with a bajillion and a half pink wards, and nothing stops the support from throwing down a ward midfight.
It sounds like I misunderstood your original position. When you said going BotRK after IE was inefficient at best, I thought you meant that it was a bad choice or worse. It sounds to me now like you were talking about it from a gold efficiency standpoint, which is a theory crafting tool I care very little about.
Now the way I see it is that if my previous assumption of what you meant held true, it would be the opposite of what was quoted above. If someone tells me something isn't good and I see an example of one pro using it and dominating a high level game, I think to myself "Well... there's at least one person out there who knows a little more about playing ADC than us who seems to feel differently. So..."
Now if someone tells me that buying BotRK after IE is bad and points me to an example of a pro buying a different item after IE, I simply just say to myself "More than one way to skin a cat." Doesn't really make me feel any differently about the BotRK option.
But anyway, if I accidentally wandered into a debate about gold efficiency of items I've made a terrible mistake, because I really really don't care. At all. I'm more interested in what actually works the best currently for different champs and different situations.
Welp, I guess I do have a Stardock account already LOL.
Might've been from when I got Political Machine.
But anyway, with all the hullabaloo about BT, IE, and BOTRK...
I interject with, BT vs. BOTRK.
well, well... mr fancy has appeared at long last. All hail dan Kuh Knee.
yeah - after playing some more, I was already starting to lean more towards skipping BT. Numbers help. Thx
In other news, I've left my MadCast ranked 5's team. I'm actually pretty happy about that. Was really not a fan of when we had to meet to accommodate other people amongst many other things. Good stuff as far as I'm concerned. Shortly after I made my cya nerds post in our team chat, 2 other people resigned... so it looks like the team is now RIP.
Fun games last night - thx everyone. Will be on again later tonight.
Well, I tanked my promo series last night in a completely winnable game by playing like crap. We had a couple people being a bit toxic (didn't really impact my play) towards each other for a good chunk of the game. And I decided to experiment with my adc build order - not really a good idea in ranked and that likely actually led to the loss imo. I played so so during team fights (awful in 1) and did not have the dps to wipe some characters. Anyway, I definitely deserved to lose that game for how I played.
So, I'm in gold III with 90 LP. 1 win away from restarting my promo series. I'm quite confident I'll get bumped to gold I (I'm gold III and playing mostly against plat players in ranked regularly now due to mmr. I just need to get my head in the game and play well.
Not really sure why its difficult for me to get my head around, but even though I don't like BT as much now, I've decided I really should continue to play champs like lucian the same way with respect to build order. That's been highly successful for me in ranked. These variant builds just result in crap. Not sure why I'm having such a tough time with this last patch, though... feel like I need to adapt my builds quite a bit.
side note - just picked up awesomenauts for $.99 and forged on steam flash sale
So... it sounds like riot is adding jungle timers to the ui... I think... but only based on the teams direct knowledge... or something... meaning warding the enemy red and seeing its gone gives you the actual respawn timer? Maybe.
Anyway, article is vague, but it sounds like we will be getting timers. I'm both for and against this change. I'm for it, because I think its absolutely stupid to have to scroll through the dumbarse chat to calculate how much time until X is up. Now, that doesn't mean I'm in favor or ui elements (depending on how they work), but there obviously must be a better way than having to scroll through an entire chat list to find the number you are looking for. On the other side, me being better at that stupid task gives me an edge in the jungle.
Anyway, here's the article I'm talking about: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/node/17908
The functionality is a duplication of what happens in the mini-map.
That is, you only see the (accurate) timers if you see the buff/objective die (it would show a timestamp in chat). Otherwise you'll only see a "dead" indicator.
Furthermore, the timers are only visible when you hit tab, so you do still have to consider the timers, they won't be 100% in your face all the time.
It'll make denying enemy vision while doing an objective (since the auto-timer will help the enemy recover from the objective - secret blue trinket buff?). It'll also free people up for timing stuff like enemy summoner spells and wards, rather than just ob/tr/dragon. And you'll still have to manually estimate if they go and kill dragon while you don't have vision.
All-in-all, i support it. While timing cooldowns and stuff gives a tangible advantage that gives you "skill", it's pretty monotonous. And since it's only visible while you hit tab, i'm pretty fine with it from an ethical point of view.
Did you read that from riot somewhere or see this? Applogies if I overlooked it in the article if its there.
I did just try this on pbe: http://www.twitch.tv/1pacov1/b/541262393
But - its only single player - so I simply got to see how it worked that way. The only thing I'm concerned about really is what the enemy team gets to see.
"What if the camp/monster dies and I don't see it then I walk up and see it: "You'll get the timer for a camp if you have vision of the camp when it's cleared, if not you'll just know that it's not up, but not when it will come back (same functionality as the current minimap icons).""
TheGame0fThrows: PRINCE ALI FABULOUS HE ALIABABWAH
That's how I ended my gaming night anyway. Fast aside - hedgie (or anyone) if you are really wanting to play a specific role before playing a game, just let me know via pm.
Anyway, just fun games tonight (no ranked for me anyway). I think I'm getting about due for a vlog... been a long time. Quite a few updates here and things to discuss here. Might just do bite sized pieces on the forum.
Actually... I'm going to do a vlog now... live in a couple min... prob 10-15 min.
Good way to end the night haha
No direct link atm - vid is processing. Check it out soon if you like (see past broadcasts): http://www.twitch.tv/1pacov1
Not a super exciting vlog, but I'm out of practice. I do shed some light on DanKuhKnee's interview process, though. Will post a proper link sometime tomorrow perhaps and send to youtube. I think we will have a dramatic vlog of interest soon though.
edit - ah here we go: http://www.twitch.tv/1pacov1/b/541318179
Also... holy crap... I'm just going to go to bed next time I feel like doing a vlog... so freakng tired today - oh well.
More thoughts from pro type players about the adc item changes: http://ask.fm/azoriu/answer/115164533894
Worth a read imo. The article is all about the power spike you get based on build path (for instance, there are certain points where certain adc's hit power spikes - one of those is with a BF, then a BT purchase.
Thanks for linking that Pacov, was really insightful. Thought it was pretty funny that the Lucian build you used that you thought lost the game was actually pretty close to how this pro thinks he should be built nowadays. I thought I remember you doing really well in that game, so not sure why you thought your build to be rubbish. Also, that pro put up a broken link to Doublift's vlog on the subject, so here it is.
Re: Jungle Timers
I'm gonna vote For. I realize that there is a balance between making this game streamlined and making it easy, but I'm for almost every change they could make like this. You could pretty much make an argument for everything in the game that they've improved or will improve and say that it benefits lazy players. Well I'm lazy as hell so good.
They're segmenting the health bars on Dragon and Baron to make it so you don't have to click on them to know more or less where their health is exactly. Good! Clicking on them and having to keep an eye on the exact number counting down is a pain in the ass! "It takes advantage away from the higher skilled players." Maybe, maybe not. If you're planning on jumping into the Baron pit for a steal with Lee Sin, having to watch the UI countdown to know when to go is a pain in the ass simple as that. It actually gets in the way of epic Lee Sin maneuvers IMO. If you're the team's jungler who is doing Baron, having to watch that tiny little number (I have my UI smaller for more usable game screen so maybe just me) while trying to fight off the enemy just sucks. I don't feel like it's rewarding when I pull off that bit of multi-tasking, just annoyed.
So let's undo all of Riot's changes that make the game better- I mean easier for nubs. You can hover your cursor over the smite icon to know how much damage it does right? Screw that! Learn to do math nubs. You can set the items you like to buy for certain champs in advance, so you can purchase them quickly right? Learn to remember better nubs. They have smart pings now right? Learn to type nubs!
That's how I ended my gaming night anyway. Fast aside - hedgie (or anyone) if you are really wanting to play a specific role before playing a game, just let me know via pm.
i just didn't want to listen to Cow bellyache about Fizz even though he "chose" to go mid after the Fizz was picked. At least Velkoz + Quinn would have been fun while we fed botlane 3/15 in the first 8 minutes and the game would have been over soon.
Not to mention he was already being grouchy about our teamcomp and being judgmental so i was just not going to deal with it.
Yah - but if you are really just in the mood to play a specific role, I certainly don't have a problem of saying - hey hedgie wants to mid this game. Just saying - let me know if you like - no big deal at any rate.
re: that lucian build that I was doing that is apparently "proper" when I considered it crap - my problem is adapting to the power spike I normally had on a champ like lucian. The problem is in the disconnect in my mind where I expect to be at X strength when I am not. For instance, if I have the old BT, I have a REALLY good understanding of how crazy I can go to get a kill right away. Take that power spike out of my lucian game and I need to adapt my playstyle (which I'm having trouble doing).
My immediate conclusion on champs like lucian is that I personally am better off sticking with my pre 4.10 build even with BT not being as powerful. that's not because its better or optimal, but more of a decision based on what I'm more comfortable with... which means I'll likely still dominate with my normal adc playstyle on lucian. I probably should keep experimenting with builds/play styles on lucian, though.
thx for the link re: dbl's blog - going to watch that later tonight methinks.
well, my internet died. sorry about that.
happens - no worries.
So, I watched the dbllft vlog yesterday that thunder linked: http://blog.ibuypower.com/blog/2014/06/23/doublelift-vlog-adc-itemization-patch-4-10/
He fleshed things out quite a bit and his thinking is really in line with mine. The lane powerspike takes much longer as an adc now - and that powerspike is actually the fun part of playing adc imo. The change reduces the potential dmg output and places more emphasis on drawing the lane out to farm. idk - I'm still trying to find some balance. I feel like I need to put in a bunch more time as adc before I head back to ranked sadly. Probably going to have to break off from the group here and there to do so as I've been lumped into support roles quite a bit lately... which does nothing to help me in ranked as I'm pretty competent in that role... pacov needs some reps.
OK - so, I'm good/decent at adc/support/jungle. Soso at top and typically crap at mid (experience as a mid - 8% of total games played there at most). I've been mystery gifted every fing fizz skin in existence now. So, I decided I'm going to put in some time playing fizz.
So far so good. I've unfortunately had very little competition as of yet (only 2 recent games). I amazingly did fine in a bots trial run (imagine that). And I did really well in a normal with pals (19/6/6). That said, it looks like I was up against a scrub team somehow.
Anyway, all that said, he feels like a really strong champ. The all in power on him is just crazy imo. Not to mention survivability going a heavy dmg setup. Going to put more time in as possible and keep working on him, but I really felt like a major carry in the last game and my champ specific mechanics can only be so so at this point (I did watch a few streamers play him to get an idea though).
Anyway, you can see my build here (now anyway): http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=pacov
I get lich bane, but I don't rush it.
Current Steam Summer Sale haul:
Total spent: 41.44
Wouldn't mind doing some co-op with some of you peope if you have battleblock theater or trine 2
There are many great features available to you once you register, including:
Sign Up Now!